Talk:Timeline of African-American firsts/Archive 1

List formatting
I deleted the long introduction and left one introductory sentence, as is the norm on Wikipedia. The content I deleted may be appropriate for adding to related articles. Spylab 17:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't believe two short paragraphs is a "long" intro. See Women in comics for a similar intro. I did try to find Wikipedia list policy by Googling "Wikipedia" and "lists", but found no relevant links. Could you point me to the relevant policy page? Thanks! --Tenebrae 05:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know about any policy page on the matter. I'm judging this on viewing countless list and article pages. The whole point of having list VS article pages is that list pages are just that, lists - usually spun off from an article that provides the context and in-depth information. Many list pages don't have any introductions at all. Women in comics is supposed to be an article, not a list, since the word list is not in the title. As you can see, there is discussion about that issue, and whether it should be merged with something else. Spylab 14:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I have found the policy, at List guideline, which says: "All articles should include a lead section, and stand-alone lists are no exception." With all due respect, please do not substitute your opinion ("I'm judging this on viewing countless list and article pages. The whole point of having list VS article pages is that list pages are just that, lists.") for Wikipedia policy. I'm returning the brief lead section as written, because it provides the list's necessary context and because it follows Wikipedia policy and guidelines. Please copy edit or make factual corrections, but do not pare it down to a less useful state simply based on your own preferences. The most important thing to remember is not to lose sight that the best any of us can do for this article is to expand the firsts that it lists.--Tenebrae 14:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * See Lead section, something I found while reading The perfect article ... and forget about Googling "Wikipedia" because everything you need is Right Here.) --72.75.105.165 22:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

George Washington Woodbey
Re the uncited claim that in 1902, the tirst African-American member of the Socialist Party of America was George Washington Woodbey: I can find references to him belonging to the party, and to being an important orator for it, but nothing that says he was the first actual member. --Tenebrae 16:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Dehyphenated African American
The Wikipedia article is named "African American," with no hyphen ... I just changed over 120 instances on the main page ... please change it when you find it in other aricles as well. --72.75.105.165 22:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The title should have been hyphenated; it was an oversight that it wasn't. According to the AP Stylebook and Strunk & White, a compound modifier is hyphenated, except for adverbs ending in "ly." Wikipedia policy is to follow those guides for grammar and spelling. --Tenebrae 04:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Then why don't you move the article named African American to African-American while you're at it? &mdash; 04:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Because "African American" isn't modifying anything. The phrase "African-American man" uses the term as a compound modifier. No biggie. I do notice that though you signed your post as, the history here records you as User:Dennette. I don't want to open a can of worms, but using sock puppets really isn't cool. --Tenebrae 04:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * D'oh! It's context sensitive ... just got overwhelmed by the sheer number in this one article.  Will have to revisit the pages on my watchlist, but not tonight. --72.75.105.165 08:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Please DO NOT edit other people's posts. That's a breach of Wikipedia policy. I've restored the information you removed from my post above.
 * Regarding context: "Major League Baseball" is the official name of the organization. "Playing baseball on the major-league level" requires a hyph.
 * Please note I did work with you on the excellent stylistic change you made. --Tenebrae 14:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

First interracial gay kiss on Television
Wouldn't this be Six Feet Under? Yes, it is an HBO show, but it's still television and not film, and should probably count. 209.51.87.93 05:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * HBO indeed is TV (no matter what the slogan says!). I'd missed the one that predated Will & Grace's. Do you have an airdate? --Tenebrae 22:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I remember seeing at least one example of a black man kissing another guy on Oz, circa 1999. Kransky 10:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Does anyone have the episode, airdate and actors? --Tenebrae 18:04, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * First interracial kiss was on the orginal Star Trek in the 1960s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.106.142.130 (talk) 16:36, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

This belongs into the list "iterracial firsts", not this one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.41.38.218 (talk) 08:09, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

First to hold public office
The article on Alexander Twilight says that he was the first African-American to hold public office (Vermont legislature). But this article says that distinction belongs to John Mercer Langston, who came along much later than Twilight. This site supports the claim for Twilight. Can anyone shed some light on this? Awbeal 14:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

How little notable do we want to get?
Before it was deleted, the general List of African Americans had numerous mentions of "firsts" I copied the page in order to add some items here. But that list has some less notable achievements, so when I'm not sure, I'm going to list them below and let other editors decide whether they should go on the page's list and be bold and put them there if they want. I don't have an opinion on whether they should be in or out.Noroton

Here goes:

 * Frank J. Anderson (born 1938?), first African-American Sheriff of Marion County, Indiana
 * Tom Colbert (born 1949), first African-American Oklahoma Supreme Justice
 * Barbara Jordan (1936-1996), first African-American woman elected to Texas Senate
 * Ellis O. Knox (1900-1975), first African-American to earn doctorate on West Coast (1931), educator, civil rights leader
 * Jeanine McIntosh, first African American female in the Coast Guard to earn the U.S. Coast Guard Aviation Designation
 * Benjamin Ward (1926-2002), the first African-American New York City Police Commissioner
 * I think we can all agree this is too random. Most of these things should be on the national level. Events with early dates (for example if this had been in 1838) might be more notable. futurebird 21:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you're right, but just in case ... Noroton 22:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Given the size and significance of NYC, for which we list first Af-Am mayor, and given that we list the NYPD's first Af-Am cops, Benjamin Ward seems like he would go on the page. Thoughts? --Tenebrae 18:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Barbara Jordan was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1994; she's an icon for African American Women and beacon of hope who demonstrates just what vision, struggle, and heart can do. So in her case I feel it's fair to give her a sentence in such a great article.I urge you, don't try to remove her based on an arguement of her insufficient importance. Barbara Jordan was one of the Greats, I can tell you that history will not soon forget her. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.133.173 (talk • contribs)
 * There are many inspirational people like Ms. Jordan, but that's not what the article lists. Unless she were the first African American or African-American woman to win the Presidential Medal of Freedom, she doesn't really fit the list. --Tenebrae (talk) 03:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Should we have more strategy? For instance, major cities like Baltimore, Philadelphia, Chicago, Atlanta, Washington, DC; New York, Seattle and Los Angeles have all had first African-American mayors, but not all are yet listed here. Cities over 500,000?  The cities' sizes and attention give them notability, and the people have been active in national politics and the US League of Mayors, so the men have had bigger than local platforms.--Parkwells (talk) 18:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Racism found within the article
There are people mentioned as being the "first" to do something in List of African-American firsts, however they are not African-American. For example: Roxie Roker was one half of the first television interracial couple in 1976, but she is from The Bahamas, not an African nation. Does anyone else think that this is mildly racist? --Alex__0888 1:29, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * 1) Come on! It's just a mixup. How anyone could interpret that as being racist is beyond me! -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.224.117.27 (talk • contribs)


 * The character, which is what the line refers to, was African-American. The line is not saying the actors were a real-life couple -- it's only talking about the fictional couple.--Tenebrae 18:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Do Afro-Carribean Negro peoples not count for the purposes of this article? They came from Africa originally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.110.198.236 (talk) 18:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If they're living in the U.S. when they accomplish their first, they would certainly fall within the purview of this article. I'm sure there are African-Americans from Haiti, etc., on the list. --Tenebrae (talk) 03:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

My secratary at CU was a black from the British Virgin Islands, and she hated being called African American because she was neither African nor American. 93.136.112.147 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 08:49, 4 November 2008 (UTC).

Doesn't anyone else but me find the whole concept of this page racist? There is no page of first for anyone with red hair or brown eyes, so why black skin? I thought wikipedia is supposed to be a global enterprise yet this sort of thing still reflects a U.S bias. Just because the 'nation of the free' still has a way to go before people are just people regardless of physical characteristics doesn't mean that we should accept the inherent discrimination in picking these people out as special cases. Yes, there are many notable achievement by people fighting for their freedom but the same is true of any society in flux. Where is the page listing notables in the development of private capitalism in Russia, gay rights firsts etc? This whole page should be removed IMHO. kimdino (talk) 17:58, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposal for rename
I have gone through the entire article. Ab initio it states African-Americans are a demographic minority in the United States and the list itself shows a strong leaning towards only US-related milestones. I propose the page be renamed to List of African-American firsts in USA or List of African-American firsts in America or something similar, to better reflect the character of the list. xC | ☎  05:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't those titles be redundent insofar as the term African American already implies American? --Beaker342 05:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It would, you're right. Hadn't thought of that. Another question - is it neccessary to have the words First African-American church/author/newspaper etc. Those words are repeated again and again for every list item, wouldn't that be redundant as well? Just wondering. xC | ☎  05:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree it might be redundant, but I think that can be viewed as a safety feature. A lot of newspaper journalists, students writing papers, etc., use Wikipedia, and if a line says simply, for instance, "First West Point graduate" rather than "First African-American West Point graduate", believe me, there will be published accounts of someone African-American listed as the very first West Point graduate ever. I would err on the side of caution, though I'd certainly go along with the consensus if otherwise.--Tenebrae 16:05, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Great edits
Kudos to User:Wysinger and |User:24.7.69.123 for addedin great and needed footnotes in the lead.

It's quite a good list-article, isn't it?--Tenebrae 15:42, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Obama Not The First Primary/Caucus Winner
Barack Obama isn't the first African-American to win a primary or caucus. Jesse Jackson won five in 1984. Obama is the first to win the Iowa caucus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.94.60.203 (talk) 18:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Will & Grace
TV.com, Yahoo.tv, TwizTV.com and TVRage.com (unlinkable from Wikipedia) all list Steve Gabriel. Only IMDb lists James Sandoval. The NBC site doesn't seem to list individual episode credits in its episode guide. Does anyone have a DVD to check? --Tenebrae (talk) 00:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * it too, am inclined to believe grabriel is the correct writer. (yahoo gabriel) apparently sandoval is a primarily a producer, actor, etc, but i could not find any credits as writer....except imdb.  (Baseline StudioSystems) (yahoo sandoval) (dvd box) --emerson7 03:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

List of European-American firsts
Is there one? If there is, I'm assuming it would be named "List of white firsts", because "African American" always has a counterpart of "white". I don't think there is one, but correct me if I'm wrong. Redsox7897 (talk) 21:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_White-American_firsts —Preceding unsigned comment added by WrightisRight05 (talk • contribs) 23:08, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction needs resolved re: 1st Af-Am female pilot
There is contradictory reportage from two sources making competing claims. Since this involves not just this article but also the article Vernice Armour, which makes a major point of this claim, I've removed this entry from this article until the competing claims can be sorted out on this talk page and any related pages can be adjusted. I'll put a note at Talk:Vernice Armour as well, suggesting that discussion be centered here.

The Wiki article Vernice Armour cites the Jet magazine article "Vernice Armour, 1st black female combat pilot, serves in Persian Gulf as family copes - National Report", April 14, 2003, by Nicole Walker. It says, "After flight school, Armour took an assignment at Camp Pendleton Naval Air Station near San Diego, CA, and honed her skills piloting the famed Super Cobra. In March 2002, she was recognized as the Department of Defense's lone African-American female combat pilot."

The editor changing the claim to that of Captain Christina Hopper (who has no Wikipedia article) cites the webzine Talking Proud!, which has much less of a publishing history than Jet and may not or may not use professional journalists, but is a niche publication specializing in the subject. The article "'Thumper' Hopper, F-16 fighter jock, Iraqi war vet, instructor pilot", non-bylined, published February 26, 2005, says, "Her squadron deployed in December 2002 to Al Jaber Air Base, Kuwait as part of the 332rd Air Expeditionary Wing supporting Operations Southern watch and Iraqi Freedom, making her the first Air Force African-American female fighter pilot to fight in a war."

I'm wondering whether Armour was the first female Af-Am combat pilot, and Hopper the first female Af-Am combat pilot deployed in a war zone?

Could fellow editors come in and help research/comment on this? --Tenebrae (talk) 15:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the delay in replying...
 * I restored the entry for Capt. Armour. The Jet article unambiguously calls her "the Department of Defense's lone African-American female combat pilot". The Talking Proud! article (a source of questionable reliability) refers to her in more qualified terms as "the first Air Force African-American female fighter pilot to fight in a war" (emphasis added). Since Capt. Armour was a Marine Corps, helicopter pilot, there doesn't seem to be a real conflict here, just a mis-reading of the two statements by the editor who made the original revision. Since Capt. Armour's actual date of deployment to Iraq wasn't mentioned (or I missed it), we can't say for sure which was the first deployed; if you consider Capt. Hopper's "first" to be significant, we could add both, but it's sure to confuse at least one reader per week. Fat&amp;Happy (talk) 22:29, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Education and academia
Given the heroic efforts for education in the 19th and 20th century, I think there should be more effort to locate first educators, college presidents, etc. This leans toward politicians and sports figures, also military. The example of men who became presidents of historically black colleges inspired generations. More than one of the founders of the sorority Alpha Kappa Alpha earned master's degrees at Columbia University in the early 20th century. (I'll be looking, too.)--Parkwells (talk) 17:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Liberia called an African-American nation?
Isn't this rather colonial? Weren't there Africans living there when African-Americans went there?--Parkwells (talk) 17:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * First, it's a pleasure to have someone like you with such academic-research skills join the editors here! Second, you make a good point, and it's worth noting that an African nation and a African-American nation are two distinct things, with the difference being cultural and not just semantic. African-American culture, like Appalachian culture, for example, is considered indigenous to the United States and did not previously exist &mdash; so Liberia at its founding was a unique entity. That makes it historically notable, and certainly a first. Was its founding colonialist or imperialist? By today's standards, probably so. But it's an objective and unique historical first nonetheless. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, I do understand about Liberia; it just struck me oddly. And thanks for your encouragement. Already this has been so interesting, as I was coming across people not thought about in a while, and learning more all the time.  Many years of achievement on this list. It's good to see the progress.--Parkwells (talk) 20:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Word that, amigo. Some nice work there you're doing! --Tenebrae (talk) 20:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks!--Parkwells (talk) 16:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

List of Mayors?
Maybe you're right to delete some mayors, but Washington, DC, and cities where African Americans had gone in the Great Migration seemed important to me - also a hugely white majority city like Seattle. DC had not long been a majority black city. Otherwise you could establish a population limit of over one million, say, and take out all that don't qualify. Maybe only LA, Chicago and NY would stay in; would have to check Cleveland's population then.--Parkwells (talk) 20:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm thinking the three largest cities, as you suggest, and adding a "See also" to the page that would take us to "List of first African-American mayors." That would open the door to everything from small towns down South on up, providing an eventually comprehensive and helpful specialty list without making this page excessively long or too minutely parsed. What do you think? --Tenebrae (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * (1) Earlier today I removed Walter Washington, the first African-American mayor of Washington DC, because he was DC's first elected mayor of any color. Before 1975, when he was elected, DC's leader was appointed by the President, and he was not a mayor. See List of mayors of Washington, D.C. for the boring details.
 * Because of the unique situation in DC, I don't think it's appropriate to include Walter Washington's 1975 election as an "African-American first". — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * (2) In general: There are a few very significant "first Black" mayors elected in the early 1970s: Hatcher in Gary, Stokes in Cleveland, and Gibson in Newark. After that, I would include only a small number of major cities such as Atlanta, New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, possibly Detroit (roughly 1 million people), and maybe some others I'm not thinking of at the moment. Beyond that, I personally wouldn't include any others. Just my two cents. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * List of first African-American mayors would do it. Good idea, because there are interesting stories, for instance, Clarence Lightner was elected mayor in 1973 of Raleigh, NC, the first African-American to be elected in a majority-white southern city. Adding such facts enlarges the picture.--Parkwells (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * We'd have to give some objective reason why Hatcher, Stokes and Gibson are significant. One thing in favor of using population as a cutoff is that's completely objective. If there are quantifiable, special historical reasons for particular individuals, though, I don't think population should be a bar; we just need to watch out for POV subjectivity. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * In 1967, Hatcher and Stokes were elected the first Black mayors of major American cities. Here's a New York Times article that refers to them as "the Jackie Robinsons of contemporary black politics". Here's an excerpt from Eyes on the Prize (the civil rights documentary) about them. At the time, their elections were considered monumental achievements. (Click on the "Press" tab at Eyes on the Prize to see some contemporary news accounts.)
 * I thought Gibson was elected about the same time, but his bio says it was 1970. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 22:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Those are good sources, and I'll take a look and encourage other editors to do so as well. Thank you for providing the links and the context! I, for one, need to learn more; Cleveland seems understandable, but I'm at a loss to understand why Gary, Indiana, is considered a "major American city." --Tenebrae (talk) 03:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * LOL. My wife is from Gary so I've been there many times, and I wonder the same thing. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 03:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I would need to find some data, but calling Gary a major city probably referred both to population and to its near past as a major industrial city and powerful economy at one point. It was a place where industrial workers joined the middle class.  I think providing some historic context is a good idea; many of the first African-American mayors arose in northern cities which were destinations in the Great Migration and were significant in the urbanization of African Americans, as well as becoming quite different places due to increased diversity from both the GM and European immigrations. I think they were all majority-white cities then, so part of the excitement was about generating wider support.  These were really firsts in the context of the list and both mayors elected in 1967 should be included on the main page, I think.  --Parkwells (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The question is (and I still have to view those links &mdash; taking brief break form work at the moment) how do we convey this in a brief logline? Saying "First Af-Am mayor of a small industrial city symbolic of the Great Migration" doesn't work.


 * Playing Devil's Advocate here: Maybe we're looking at this too comprehensively. We can't list every first of everything, obviously. Maybe we need to see this as a handy, quick-search list of quantifiable firsts, and leave the nuanced stuff to articles about the Great Migration, etc., while including Gary (and every other town for which information is available) on the list of first Af-Am mayors (which I'd really like to see us create, though with the Memorial Day weekend and my own deadlines &mdash; yep; workin' over the weekend &mdash; may be difficult for me to do myself. Do we like the idea, first off?) --Tenebrae (talk) 16:06, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * (Losing track of the indents) - Yes, I definitely say yes to the mayors' list; it seems to get us out of the difficulties of including too many on this list - although I'd say keep the very first two elected in 1967 (both from white majority northern cities), then also have first AA mayors of NY, Chicago and LA, because those cities are so big.--Parkwells (talk) 16:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, you may have also have solved the problem of how to include Gary, Ind. -- "First Af-Am mayor of a white-majority U.S. city." That's quantifiable per the census, and Gary may not be a major city (subjective term though that is) but it is a city. That said, though, who was elected first? Hatcher in Gary or Stokes in Cleveland? By the nature of this list, we only include the first, not the first and the second.


 * While I'm here (procrastinating! aargh!), could we get a discussion up about first to speak before the American Historical Society? Du Bois was probably the first Af-Am to speak to a lot of groups. If we're not going to list every one, what objective standard can we use to include the AHA and not, say, the Kiwanis or the National Geographic Society or Daughters of the American Revolution, etc.? The first to speak before a world body like the U.N. I would argue is objective -- there are only two or three such world bodies like that, e.g., the U.N. and the World Court -- but how are we to decide what plain old group is to be included and which not? --Tenebrae (talk) 16:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Since Stokes and Hatcher were elected the same year, I say include them both. I think the NY Times article mentioned Stokes first, probably because Cleveland was bigger (and African Americans were only about 35% of the population) but not to mention Hatcher the same year seems wrong. It was a watershed year, because there were two black men elected the same year in major cities.


 * In terms of Du Bois, he trained as an academic and the American Historical Association was the professional association in his field, with membership then limited (I think) to practitioners. It was much more established than the newer field of sociology, which he also wrote about in his career.  The so-called Dunning School at Columbia Univ. became very influential in American history about this time, and was telling the southern white view of Reconstruction (that it was filled with corruption and inept blacks, who mostly didn't have an active role).  Du Bois' address of the AHA conference meant a panel of the association had accepted a paper from him and found it worthy of discussing at a national conference, not just that he was invited to lecture. The issues in history were important and what he wrote his masterwork Black Reconstruction in response to.  So maybe we can limit it to professional associations.--Parkwells (talk) 17:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * After spending too much time on lists, I'm ready to call it a day - 1967 was when both Stokes and Hatcher were elected, so they were first the same year, like the two African-American women honored the same year on Time's cover. But if people vote for the mayor of Gary just to go to the second list, I don't care any more. It had 100,000 plus in 2000, so even if it had twice that in 1967, it was a medium city (but the largest in IN that's not a county seat.) The first mayor of any  city was the year before, 1966 in Springfield, OH, but he was appointed by the city commission.  So 1967 is still the important first year for elected mayors and we know more than ever elections are important.--Parkwells (talk) 19:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * As far as Du Bois and the AHA, I still think it was important, because of the people he could come in contact with and who would hear him, but won't press it. I think he's more important than comic books, but that's me. And yes, it's probably too hard to define which speech where. Books and offices are easier.--Parkwells (talk) 19:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Breaking up the sections
Would anybody object if I broke up the centuries into subsections with decades? Having a single TOC entry (and editing section) for the 20th century is a little unwieldy. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 21:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That sounds like a good idea for the 19th and 20th centuries; not so sure about earlier. What does everyone think?


 * BTW, nice catch on City of NY. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I would agree on just breaking up the 19th and 20th centuries into decade subsections.--Parkwells (talk) 14:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Wiki style issue
When African modifies the noun American, in "first African American elected president", the term is not hyphenated. When it is a compound adjective, as in "first African-American general", it is. I was trying to change entries in the list to reflect that, but got caught in an edit conflict. We should do it right on this list.--Parkwells (talk) 17:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * You're certainly right about compound modifiers, and while I couldn't find a specific Wiki style guide on the issue, I do see that the article titles Italian American and Japanese American have no hyphs. Seems non-standard to me (like the apostrophe-s The New York Times until recently put in numerical decades, e.g., " It was the 1980's.") but we have to be consistent. So, you are correct, sir! Nice catch! ... and thanks for the discussion. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

New TOC
Oooooh...! Niiiiiice! --Tenebrae (talk) 00:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Not so sure about the new decades headers, though. Having 1910 above 1910 doesn't look right. I'm thinking 1910s, 1920s, etc., are clearer and a shade more accurate. What say we? --Tenebrae (talk) 00:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * New TOC looks great. As far as the decades headers, look again. Not happy with this, either, as some have some irregularities.  I tried 1910s, 1920s, etc. first, but that looked strange, too - somehow that "s" sticking out above the other numbers. Try it out yourselves, and decide which you prefer.--Parkwells (talk) 01:04, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't feel very strongly about it, but I prefer the decades (1920s, etc.), although it gets a little awkward with the first decade of the century: 1900s? Any thoughts? — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 01:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It would have to be 1900s. Will change it tomorrow.--Parkwells (talk) 02:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll go ahead and change it. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 02:50, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * TOC and headers look great, Malik. Thanks; must have worked on it too long yesterday for anything to look good.--Parkwells (talk) 17:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

List of first African-American mayors
Has been started and can include every one. I've moved some years - mayors need to be identified by the year in which elected, not the year of being sworn in, unless not by election (as in NY this year)--Parkwells (talk) 19:35, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Cool! I'll go visit!--Tenebrae (talk) 23:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

This article is excellent but why is Douglas Wilder (first African-American governor of Virginia) listed under 1990? He was elected in November 1989 and took office in January 1990. Shouldn't it be "year in which elected, not the year of being sworn in"  on this page like it is on the "African-American mayors" page? Also hope to see a certain other change made to the 2008 entry later today. Mtminchi08 (talk) 07:27, 4 November 2008 (UTC)mtminchi08

Other lists
There should be other lists like this. 76.126.15.78 (talk) 01:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

first African-American presidential candidate?
I thought it was Clennon King in 1960, but now I came across some info indicating it was George Edwin Taylor of the National Liberty Party in 1904; regardless he needs an article. And then I came across mention of Blanche Kelso Bruce, which elsewhere (not in the WP article) says was nominated for, but did not become a candidate for, President. Hmm. See e.g. "Black Blood in the White House" and |"Pioneers in Presidential Race." Some editors here may also wish to help with Category:African American United States presidential candidates - in adding people, or maybe turning it into a list so that distinctions can be made between nominees and candidates and so on as well as providing other details. Шизомби (talk) 20:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, this page seems to indicate that in 1848 Frederick Douglass received 1 of 104 votes at the convention of the Liberty Party (United States) for President. That might make him both the first AA VP and P candidate. I don't know if it is the same as the National Liberty Party or if they were related in any way. Шизомби (talk) 20:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Again returning to the above syr.edu page, one of the presidential candidates who ultimately received the vice presidential nomination was C.C. Foote. Foote is identified in The Provincial Freeman: A New Source for the History of the Negro in Canada and the United States by Alexander L. Murray The Journal of Negro History, Vol. 44, No. 2 (Apr., 1959), pp. 123-135 as "a white preacher from Detroit." However, in Martin Delany, Frederick Douglass, and the Politics of Representative Identity By Robert S. Levine 259 n.46 he is identified as a "black minister." If AA, he would be the first prior to Douglass. Шизомби (talk) 21:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

First Female General Officer
I'm hoping that I'm in the right area. I would like to have added to this list Hazel W. Johson. In 1979, she was the first African-American woman to earn General Officer rank in the U.S. military. She was the sixteenth commander of the Army Nurse Corps from 01 Sep 1979--31 Aug 1983. This can be verified from the following website: Bigt2448 (talk) 21:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

List of African-American medical firsts
Like List of first African-American mayors, which encompasses all the specific towns and cities that followed the historical first-ever Af-Am mayors, perhaps a similar "List of Af-Am medical firsts" could cover all the dozens and dozens of medical-specialty firsts that would otherwise create a bit of clutter in this list of more general historical firsts. I'm thinking specifically of the the many, many, many neurology firsts that have now been removed twice.

This proposed list would be the better, more focused, and more easily utilized place to list all the many firsts in the dozens of such specific medical specialties. Otherwise, we'll have first male and female ear, eye, nose and throat, ob-gyn, liver specialist, kidney specialist, blood specialist, pancreatic-cancer specialist, neurologist, pharmacologist, toxicologist, knee surgeon, lung surgeon, etc. etc. etc., plus the first to win awards in their field, present papers in their field, head major departments in their field, etc. etc. etc.

It's all too much for this list, just as the plethora of mayors would have been. --207.237.223.118 (talk) 14:55, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "First African-American to Quarterback a HBCU to victory in the Tangerine Bowl"? "First African-American NCAA Division I college softball player to join the elite 1,000 career strikeouts club?"


 * Really? These are historic, Civil Rights-level firsts? Let's get a discussion going here before we dilute this page with a plethora of sports footnotes. --207.237.223.118 (talk) 20:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. According to the lede:
 * African-Americans' initial achievements in various fields historically establish a foothold, providing a precedent for more widespread cultural change. The shorthand phrase for this is "breaking the color barrier."
 * This list isn't intended to be a list of the first African American accomplishment in every endeavor, but those of particular importance. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 21:26, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

This list is supposed to be about important African-American accomplishments in history. To state that an interracial gay kiss on television is important but that becoming a neurosurgeon is not is just one example of the ignorance displayed by those seeking to diminish the medical pioneers included here. A big reason many African-American children choose not to go into medicine (or other distinguished specialties) is that they see no role models. This list is a prime way to combat this problem. Yet, the actions of a vocal minority (because the majority of people who appreciated the neurosurgery and other medical pioneers listed here treated them with the respect they deserve, rather than belittling them) have unfortunately robbed many of the opportunity to learn about these extraordinary people. The fact that I linked this page to that of Barack Obama means that there have already been many more visitors than there would otherwise be -- all the more reason why these historic firsts should not be belittled. If people weren't aware of these pioneers, then they should take the opportunity to read and learn about them, rather than ignorantly stating "I wasn't aware of these people, therefore they aren't notable" -- that is the kind of arrogance that helps no one. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shotcallerballerballer (talk • contribs) 03:07, October 6, 2008
 * I don't think anybody is denigrating the achievements of neurosurgeons and other medical specialists. The suggestion is that the first Black physician is a milestone that should be included on a general list. The first Black ENT or neurosurgeon should be in a list of "first Black doctors in their respective specialties", just as we hit a point where the number of "first Black mayors" warranted a list of their own. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 03:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Anyone who aids and/or abetts in removing the aforementioned accomplishments is contributing (either intentionally or unintentionally) to the denigration of these pioneers. If someone feels strongly enough that these feats warrant a separate page, then it is their obligation to take the time and effort to create that page before deleting these pioneers from this page. That is the point I have been making this entire time. If entertaining feats don't warrant a separate page, then it is reasonable that medical feats shouldn't either. However, if someone feels differently, it is their obligation to create a separate page rather than lazily deleting medical pioneers from the main page. There isn't a single medical feat posted on this page that fails to meet the criteria of "breaking the color barrier". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shotcallerballerballer (talk • contribs) 02:35, October 7, 2008


 * Wikipedia works by consensus, and the consensus is against including such finely parsed medical specialties. If you cannot respect consensus, or even sign your posts, a Wikipedia administrator will be asked to intervene and to lock this page. Please read The Five Pillars of Wikipedia for an understanding of the Wikipedia collaborative process.


 * If you believe these medical-specialty firsts are notable -- and they are, within the parameters of specialty firsts -- then it's actually your own responsibility to create such a page and defend its notability.


 * In terms of notability, "Entertaining feats" (sic -- I think you meant "entertainment") is an inaccurate characterization for particular mass-media firsts. The first interracial kiss on television, for example, is inarguably a sociocultural milestone in that it was a groundbreaking representation seen by millions and became part of a wider national discussion in magazines and newspapers in turn read by millions. --207.237.223.118 (talk) 20:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

First of all, if you think that the first interracial gay kiss on television (not the same as first interracial kiss) was a "sociocultural milestone", it is your responsibility to cite references to support this opinion, just as I have cited multiple references to support the pioneers I have added. I would be more than happy to have an admin judge the quality of your claims versus mine.

I already have read the five pillars of consensus -- the opinion of your loud minority, which seeks to subjugate the majority of people who have seen this page and chosen not to change it, does not constitute a consensus. This is especially true since you provide no evidence (beyond your own opinion) to support your view.

I have already defended the notability of each of the pioneers I have listed (and will now proceed to relist). Therefore, it is your responsiblity to prove that I am wrong in that statement by citing references, not simply your own opinions. I would be happy to discuss this with any admin who has questions about these pioneers.

Wilkipedia works by evidence as well as consensus -- please respect both by providing evidence (not simply your own opinions). Thank you. -- Shotcallerballerballer (talk · contribs) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shotcallerballerballer (talk • contribs) 14:53, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Add me to the consensus of editors opposed to the relatively obscure and not nationally, culturally noteworthy edits of Shotcallerballerballer and SKOMAGSUG.--69.22.254.108 (talk) 16:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Additionally, many of their edits appear to be in, I'm sure, good faith, but dubiously sourced -- see my notations in the edit summaries for URLs and details. Please see also Reliable Sources policy. --69.22.254.108 (talk) 18:27, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Regarding today's edits: The entry re first to win multiple chess championships is vague in that it doesn't cite any specific championship. Also, the citation it gives goes to an error page. The Aspis Prize citation refers to Karanja's wiki page. Wikipedia does not allow wikis, including itself, to be used as reference sources, so I think what the editor meant wasn't a wiki page for Karanja but the Wiki (i.e. Wikipedia) page for Karanja, meaning citations there. That's fine. However, aside from one minor newspaper mentioning it, the Aspis Prize gets virtually no Google hits, and the foundation that has granted it, Chess-in-the-Schools, doesn't even mention it on its page. The U.S. Chess Federation doesn't recognize it. It's one of dozens if not hundreds of minor chess awards, and non-notable.


 * Finally, the line "First African-American to win a national chess championship" gives a citation that say Street won the U.S. Amateur Championship, but which doesn't say he was the first Af-Am to do so, or that the U.S. Amateur Championship was the first national championship won by an Af-Am. Could we find a WP:RS citation that specifically confirms these things? --69.22.254.108 (talk) 18:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

CC of "Consensus at List of African-American firsts" at User talk:Shotcallerballerballer
Please read WP:Consensus, Wikipedia's policy concerning consensus.

Wikipedia works by consensus. Individual editors don't have to agree with the consensus, but they have to abide by it. Please stop reverting other editors at List of African-American firsts simply because you don't like the consensus. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 17:59, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree with Malik Shabazz. Please stop your edit warring and reversions against consensus. There have been multiple warnings and much discussion over this. If it happens again, we have no choice but to request admin intervention for a block. -- 207.237.223.118 (talk) 19:22, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Billy Preston on Saturday Night Live... worth mentioning?
On October 11, 1975, African-American singer-songwriter Billy Preston was one of two musical guests (the other being Janis Ian) who appeared and performed on the very first episode of Saturday Night Live. He was also - chronologically speaking - the very first musical performer. So what do you think, ladies and gentlemen: should this be added to the list? Playsockfilms (talk) 03:19, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * First Af-Am musician on SNL? That's parsing it pretty minutely. First Af-Am musician on television ever is much more of an historically significant, groundbreaking first. --Tenebrae (talk) 04:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Minor firsts
Just as an editor created List of first African-American mayors, a few reinserted state-level firsts keep popping up in this list that's supposed to be of major, historic, national- and international-level firsts. This list is not meant to encompass, say, the first male and female governor, lt. gov, member of the state senate, speaker of the state senate, member of the state assembly, speaker of the state assembly, state supreme court judge and state supreme court head justice. That's just eight categories, times two (male and female) times 50 states (or more if you add territories), and that's 800 names. Even if only a quarter of those are currently applicable, that's 200 names.

This list is not meant to be a catch-all &mdash; that dilutes and diminishes it. So, I have taken the state-level firsts and created the page List of African-American US state firsts. If someone wants to do the same for the first male and female in every single medical specialty, as some are trying to do, then please do that rather than add another hundred lines in defiance of consensus. --Tenebrae (talk) 04:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

John Mercer Langston, 19th c. politician
I see that his election to public office in 1854 followed by many years election of a man in New England, who gets the first. But this is the politician's name: he was born in VA, lived in Oberlin, OH; and was the brother of Charles H. Langston, grandfather to the poet Langston Hughes. (JM Langston in 1888 was the first black elected from VA to Congress.) Sources: Leon F. Litwack and August Meier, eds., Black Leaders of the Nineteenth Century, University of Illinois, 1991.--Parkwells (talk) 00:11, 16 December 2008 (UTC) (Made corrections) ---Parkwells (talk) 22:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

First African American
What about the first African American -- ever? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.33.140.217 (talk) 17:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Repetitions
Is it really necessary to have "First African American..." at the beginning of each line? Seems a bit silly to have it repeated 287 times through the article, as if the readers wouldn't already get it from the article title. Laurent (talk) 17:30, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


 * There are lots of variations on the phrase, with the kinds of qualifiers, limiters, etc., that affect any lists of firsts. --207.237.223.118 (talk) 20:25, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Kimberly McClelland not a "national champion".
Kimberly McClelland wasn't a national champion. She wasn't even an outright winner - she was one member of a five-way tie for first place in a class section which excluded higher ranked (i.e. better) players as clarified here and here. She was a middle of the pack player at the scholastic level, not even close to the best players on the national level, not a national champion and was deemed to not be notable.TheDarkOneLives (talk) 04:32, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Barack Obama
I had previously editied the page to reflect in the notes that there is some doubt to the fact that Barack Obama is the first african american president of the united states. There are reputable sources that state that there is a possibility that Warren G. Harding was of partial african american ancestry and thereby might possibly be considered the first african american presdident under some definitions. I had added a reputable source along with a footnote stating the previous. What merits constitute its removal? I have seen no explanation that would constitute grounds for the noninclusion of this fact on the page.XavierGreen (talk) 23:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You did not add a 'reputable source', what you added was the musings of an assistant professor about a spurious attack book that was widely regarded as complete nonsense. The NYT is not the source of an article about this, an Assistant Professor(Beverly Gage) is, from an essay in the magazine portion of the outlet. And all she does is cite the racist attack book and use 'supposedly' and 'rumors', along with innuendos and speculation. I can't see how anyone could take any of that as even a tiny bit factual. Wikipedia editor Stude62 provides a long explanation why this does not belong on Wikipedia, and then again here. Hardings ancestry is listed here, and there is nothing there about any African American ancestors. This addition is nothing but innuendos and accusations to this portion of Harding's life. This not only doesn't belong in anything that has to do with the Barack Obama article, it doesn't belong in the Warren G. Harding article(except for mentioning that it was a racial attack made by Harding's opponents), and surely doesn't belong in the List of African American firsts as this same editor inserted here months ago and was told that is does not belong here. I think an encyclopedia would be willing to treat the accusations as a tidbit found somewhere inside it's vast articles, but not treated as something proven and definitely NOT something that alters proven facts in other articles. In other words, adding as an accusation in the Harding article is ok, but adding it in the Harding article to cast doubt on Harding's ancestry is NOT. You are trying to take a route that is not in the best interests of the facts. To claim that Harding's ancestry is not clear is not true. All the facts that Harding have given about his ancestry are there, and the Harding scholars have long discredited the claims about his AA ancestry. To try and treat these attacks as 'proof' or in anyway a reliable source is pure folly. Even if they were true, which they almost certainly are not, there is no way one could argue that Harding was the first AA President. The 'one drop rule' was a racist KKK way of deriving a person's 'unpure' heritage, if a person's great-great grandmother was of AA blood, that wouldn't make someone an African-American if that person did not identify as an African-American. And it definitely would not make that person the first African-American elected to anything. This does not belong here. DD2K (talk) 00:17, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
 * How is it not factual that some scholars think that there is enough evidence to question whether or not barack obama might not be the first african american president by some definitions? There was no discussion or consensus when i had previously tried to add the information to the article, just your opinion on why it should not be there. Many of the points you make can be considered original research.XavierGreen (talk) 01:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Parsing a bit too minutely
The first African-American on a integrated pro basketball team, or on an integrated college or high-school team, would be a milestone. But the reference for David DeJernett does not credit him with any of those milestones. Instead, a site devoted to one particular team says claims only that he was "the first black athlete in United States history to star on an undisputed integrated championship basketball team." And even that article says two other African-Americans "before him (in Chicago and New York City) had played on integrated city champions, but never in an open statewide tournament."

And none of these appear to be the first Af-Am on an integrated high school team -- just the first (possibly) on a (city-? state-? national-? championship team. An integrated team winning a championship isn't a milestone -- the first integrated high school team would be the milestone. -- Tenebrae (talk) 00:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Deletion
I propose that this page be deleted, unless a page about white American firsts is created, along with hispanic American firsts, native American firsts etc... We can't just single one race out. WrightisRight05 (talk) 22:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Why don't you create them then? Falcon8765 (talk) 22:51, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_White-American_firsts
 * Would I have to get approval or something from a senior wikipedian? I have no idea how to go about doing things I'm pretty new haha signed, WrightisRight05  —Preceding unsigned comment added by WrightisRight05 (talk • contribs) 22:56, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Ruben Studdard and Fantasia
Why are you people taking my information off of here?! Ruben Studdard is the first African American male to win American Idol and Fantasia is the first African American female to win American Idol. Stop taking my contributions off Malik Shabazz and Fat&Happy. The King Gemini (talk) 18:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I removed them because they are trivial. Why not include the first African American man to make a guest appearance on The Mary Tyler Moore Show or the first African American woman to make a guest appearance on What's My Line? Those "achievements" are just as arbitrary—and just as trivial. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not trivial if it actually happened. It's history. And now about what you said about "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" and "What's My Line"; if that actually happened, it should be added because it's a part of history. If you are being a butthole, then I suggest you talk to me like an adult and not being a smart-ass. The King Gemini (talk) 19:42, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Sharon Dahlonega Raiford Bush
I (User:Tenebrae) have moved this eminently reasonable discussion here from own talk page in order to get as wide a variety of editors' opinions as possible. Here's the original post:
 * Tenebrae, I ask that you re-consider deleting Sharon Raiford Bush (nee, Sharon Crews) from List of African-American firsts. Ms. Raiford Bush's contribution to American history is archived by the National Museum of African American History and Culture, a Smithsonian Institution museum, alongside President Gerald Ford's recorded congratulatory remarks to her and the WGPR inaugural news team for becoming the world's first African-American television station on September 29,1975. In effect, Ms. Raiford Bush became the first African-American female weather anchor of prime time news. The Smithsonian registry is TR2009-6. "Please know that we are honored to be the repository for such a significant artifact of African American history," wrote Michele Gates Moresi, curator of collections for the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, DC. Vintage photos of Ms. Raiford Bush were restored by CBS and are also archived at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library and the Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History (#2009.01). An article was published globally by Exceptional People Magazine in its September, 2010, issue.37Celcius (talk) 20:23, 26 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Now, WGPR being the first African-American owned television station seems like a significant national first. I think we should include that if we can source it better than via the cite here. (See concerns, paragraph after next.)


 * It's not, however, a national network &mdash; it's just a local station &mdash; and I'm not sure that the evidence above says that Ms. Bush was unquestionably the first African-American woman weatherperson anywhere ever in the U.S. by 1975. Aside from the fact that Af-Ams were appearing on local news outlets in cities like Washington, D.C. and Philadelphia, the remarks given above seem to be about the TV station and not specific personnel there.


 * Also, I'm not sure the cited source passes the reliable source standard. The information about Ms. Bush comes from her own self-written bio page in what appears to be a self-published online magazine. It's not coming from an outside, disinterested third party. I think the policy of WP:SPS enters into it here.


 * The first Af-Am weatherperson on a national network news program would be a major national first. And the first undisputed Af-Am weatherperson anywhere in the country would be a notable national first. I'm not sure the evidence is there, from any source other than herself, that was was the very first Af-Am or Af-Am woman weatherperson on a U.S. TV station.


 * Might other editors go to link above and let us know what you think? --Tenebrae (talk) 23:19, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Ken Hudson
Two pages on the official NBA web site refer to Hudson as "former NBA referee Ken Hudson, the second African-American game official in league history" and "the first person of color to referee a city high school basketball championship (1967) and later became a pioneering NBA referee, officiating in the league from 1968 to 1972 as one of the league's earliest African-American game officials" (emphasis added). I think it would take an extraordinarily good source to support the recent claim that he was the first. Fat&amp;Happy (talk) 00:29, 18 February 2011 (UTC)


 * That source looks about as solid as it gets. I'd support removing the Ken Hudson line while we search for a definitive name. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:59, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

BET (1980)
What is an "African-American television channel"? And what sources do we have saying BET was the first one? The formulation in the Robert L. Johnson article is a bit more meaningful: "the first cable television network aimed at African Americans". This seems accurate, but even that statement has no cited source. The BET article calls it the first black-controlled company listed on the NYSE, with a reliable source, so that might be worth adding (probably 1991), but that doesn't resolve the television channel questions.

On a related topic, the Johnson article mentions a few firsts. Only one, billionaire, is included here. What's the policy/consensus on listing one person multiple times?

The "billionaire" first is sourced to http://www.factmonster.com/spot/bhmfirsts.html. Is that a reliable source? (I don't honestly think it looks like one, but it might be worth cross-checking for items missing from our list if that hasn't already been done.) Fat&amp;Happy (talk) 02:25, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree that factmoster.com doesn't appear to be a reliable source.
 * I also agree that BET is better described as "the first cable television network aimed at African Americans" than "the first African-American television channel".
 * With respect to multiple listings, Barack Obama must be listed four or five times. I'm not saying that's a good thing, just pointing out that Johnson wouldn't be unique if he were listed more than once. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:42, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I hadn't checked, but expected that (Obama). But I considered him somewhat a special case. Still, do we need both "First AA elected President" and "First AA President"? If those were two different people (a vice-presidential succession and a later election), I could see it, but two for the same event? And isn't "First AA president of Harvard Law Review" much like some things we have termed too finely sliced in other cases, like "First president of Foo University", etc.? Fat&amp;Happy (talk) 05:01, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Back to the original topic, do you know of any good sources for BET being the 1st network, even though it's sort of common knowledge? Fat&amp;Happy (talk) 05:04, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

First African American Women Co-Anchors
On NBC (WRC-TV Channel 4 News in Washington, DC) Pat Lawson Muse and Barbara Harrison were one of the first all-female anchor teams in the country. I am sure they were the first African American Women to accomplish this fantastic honor. My source of information: http://www.nbcwashington.com/on-air/about-us/Pat_Lawson_Muse.html. Am I correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.119.126 (talk) 19:45, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Eleanor Joyce Toliver-Williams
I have for now just commented-out this entry (after formatting the citation link properly) since the only source for this story (other than a non-WP:RS family-written death notice that appears verbatim on various sites) is an undated piece at OurNewsNow.com. That a purportedly professional journalistic website would run stories (others besides this) without dates is troubling, since this is a very, very basic tenet of journalism ("When"). But after reading that obit, and given that this story appears in no mainstream source, it seems apparent that OurNewsNow.com simply used the family-written tribute as its source. This is too flimsy for an encyclopedia, which requires much more concrete sourcing.

As well, this obit and others mention a Black Aviation Hall of Fame, purportedly founded in Memphis, Tenn., in 2001 &mdash; yet this supposed hall of fame does not turn up either in a Google search nor a WhitePages.com search. This is another indication that OurNewsNow did no checking, and simply copied what the family claimed. The only sourcing for these claims come from either a self-published family tribute or a non-reliable source. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:56, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * On closer inspection, it seems that this citation is one of several by a conflict-of-interest linkspammer who has been warned by several editors at User talk:Ramzg of his inappropriate behavior. Several editors besides myself have gone through his contributions on about a dozen pages to remove this promotional linkspam. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:13, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

First African American MALE pilot?
Bessie Coleman is the first Af-Am *woman* pilot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African-American_firsts#1920s), but who is the first Af-Am *male* pilot? Not in list. Bessie Coleman can be listed as "First Af-Am pilot", or some other emphasis on being first. --Flightsoffancy (talk) 23:12, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * That's a really good question. I'll do some quick digging. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:21, 21 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Haven't found an earlier male pilot, though I did correct the first pilot for a major commercial airline and found the first pilot for a regularly scheduled US airline (a cargo airline). It's entirely possible Bessie was the first, period, but let's check some more. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:45, 21 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Looking at the sources in the Bessie Coleman article, one of them (footnote #3 at this writing) says first African American to get a pilot's license, male or female. Another source (#2) says she was the first American, regardless of sex or ethnicity, to get an international license, which is noted here but in such a way that it can be taken as a typo. Seems like a couple of tweaks are in order. Fat&#38;Happy (talk) 02:59, 21 December 2011 (UTC)


 * D'oh! That should have been my first step. Kudos to you, my fine sir! --Tenebrae (talk) 03:05, 21 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, I found this about another early Af-Am pilot &mdash; seems like the first Navy aviator, but may be the first male period &mdash; but the article is unclear (an the Air Force began as teh Army Air Force, so I'm not sure where the Navy comes in). I've been Wiki'ing for quite a while today and I'm beat, if someone else wants to untangle this one. --Tenebrae (talk) 03:13, 21 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Someone born in 1926 being the first black pilot, period, seems a bit dubious. When you're less tired, check James Banning and these related refs (if nothing else, we should be safe calling him the first to fly coast-to-coast if that's not a trivial distinction):
 * http://earlyaviators.com/ebanning.htm
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=QAXWwVrc9TsC&lpg=PA20&ots=BzOwKQFCh0&dq=%22flying%20hoboes%22%20%22banning%22&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=banning&f=false
 * http://www.aaregistry.org/historic_events/view/james-banning-aviation-first "first Black aviator to obtain a license from the U.S. Dept. of Commerce"
 * http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi2230.htm ditto, "the first Black flyer licensed by the US Department of Commerce"
 * Two other possible names, found on page xiv of the Google book, would be Eugene J. Bullard (WWI, flew for French in 1917; added later: reading his own WP article, I want him in this article someplace, probably "1st military pilot") and A. Porter Davis (named with Banning as being licensed in the late '20s; 4th black licensed per http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/profiles/article.asp?id=125; 1st per http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2609715/?page=2 but not possible in 1928 given Coleman).


 * Annnd... another contender: http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/In-the-Museum-The-Unrecognized-First.html Emory Malick, looks like a winner, at least for now, if we can all agree the sourcing is adequate.


 * OK, now I've also had enough for tonight. Fat&#38;Happy (talk) 04:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Jackie Robinson
One commonly cited example is that of Jackie Robinson, who in becoming the first African-American Major League Baseball player
 * What the heck does that mean? Besides the weird wording, this isn't true.  There were African American MLB players prior to Robinson, just not for a long time.  Moses Fleetwood Walker, for example, played for the Toledo Mudhens, then a National League team, in 1884.  User:Zoe|(talk) 03:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete the Jackie Robinson example if you think it's a bad example; it'd be good to substitute another example to make the reason for this list's significance as explicitly clear as possible.
 * Jackie Robinson, in books and documentaries and a statute in his honor in Jersey City, is technically as the first Major League Baseball player of the "modern era," a standard term used by sportswriters and historians for technical accuracy. I'm not sure I'm following: Are you saying Jackie Robinson's appearance on a major-league team in 1947 wasn't groundbreaking? --Tenebrae 21:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No, not at all, it was clearly groundbreaking, but we need to make it clear in an encyclopedia that there were others before him, even if it wasn't for several years. I believe that "the modern era" refers to post-1900, but don't quote me on that. User:Zoe|(talk) 21:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Added a qualifyer onto the end of that section to clear things up a bit. User:VintageGuitarGuy
 * There already was a qualifier: the first African American of the modern era . Your sentence ("However, this is not true") didn't belong there. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:57, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

PMOM / PMOY
The first African American playboy playmate does not constitute much of a barrier breaking precedent. This information is better suited on the subjects', Jennifer Jackson's article and Renee Tenison's article or preferably on the | playboy one. Most of the accomplishments listed on the above article have been of incalculable significance in African American history marking milestones as well as setting momentous precedents for generations of black Americans. Keep this in perspective, before reverting the edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.90.1.65 (talk) 05:14, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Wow, "incalculable significance in African American history". Such as:


 * First African American flight attendant
 * First African American to win a major national player of the year award in college basketball
 * First African-American male professional wrestler to win a world heavyweight championship
 * First African-American police officer of the NYPD to be named a precinct commander
 * First African American to be named American League MVP
 * First African American to win a top-level NASCAR race
 * First African-American cast member of a daytime soap opera
 * First African-American model on the cover of a Vogue (British Vogue) magazine
 * First African-American coach to win NBA Championship
 * First African-American superhero: The Falcon, Marvel Comics' Captain America #117
 * First African-American basketball player to win the NBA All Star MVP, the NBA Finals MVP, & the NBA MVP all in the same season
 * First African-American NCAA Division I basketball coach
 * First African-American superhero to star in own comic-book series
 * First African-American general manager in the National Basketball Association
 * First African-American interracial kiss in a mainstream comics magazine
 * First African-American interracial male kiss on network television: Sammy Davis, Jr. (African American) and Carroll O'Connor (Caucasian) in All in the Family
 * First African-American individual inducted to the Basketball Hall of Fame
 * First African-American Bond Girl in a James Bond movie
 * First African-American Bond villain
 * First African-American model on the cover of American Vogue magazine
 * First African-American model on the cover of ELLE magazine
 * First African American to win Super Bowl MVP in NFL
 * First African-American interracial kiss in a color comic book
 * First African American inducted to the Basketball Hall of Fame as a player
 * First African-American man to win Daytime Emmy Award for lead actor in a soap opera
 * First African-American Miss America
 * First African-American WWE Tag Team Champion
 * First African-American coach to win the NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Championship
 * First African-American wrestling manager
 * First African-American NFL referee
 * First African-American Miss USA
 * First African American tag team to win the WCW World Tag Team Championship
 * First African-American WCW World Heavyweight Champion
 * First tag team made up of two African Americans to win the WWE Tag Team Championship
 * First African-American model to appear on the cover of Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition
 * First African American to win the WWE Championship
 * First African American to win the WWE Women's Championship
 * First African American to hold the #1 rank in tennis
 * First African American to hold the year-end #1 rank in tennis
 * First African American to be named year-end world champion by the International Tennis Federation
 * First African-American Arena Football League head coach to win ArenaBowl
 * First African American to win a Career Grand Slam in tennis
 * First African American General Manager for World Wrestling Entertainment
 * First African-American NBA general manager to win the NBA Finals
 * First African-American Extreme Championship Wrestling champion
 * First African-American female professional wrestler to win the NWA World Women's Championship
 * First African-American doubles team to be named year-end world champion by the International Tennis Federation
 * First African-American Disney Princess
 * First African-American to win the WWE Diva's Championship


 * I would have to agree that the significance of quite a few of these is truly "incalculable".


 * Miss America and Miss USA, covers of Vogue (in two countries), Elle, and SI's swimsuit edition set such greater precedents than Playboy.


 * And pro wrestling, basketball, and tennis; can't beat those – if the goal of the page is to vindicate Jimmy the Greek.


 * Perhaps a case could be made that by 1990 Tenison was a bit "ho-hum; been there, done that".


 * On the other hand, in March 1965, the same month as Bloody Sunday and 18 years before Vanessa Williams' Miss America win, Playboy finally responding to letters asking "but why does beauty only come in one color?" was a big deal, and the person who broke their color barrier deserves at least as much recognition for doing so as a WWE wrestler.


 * I've moved this discussion from my talk page to the article's, which is where discussions of article content really belong. Perhaps other editors will agree that these women's accomplishments are trivial and should be removed. But both entries have been included in the list since October 2006, and none of the editors seem to have objected until what I still characterize as a personal I-don't-like-it deletion with no prior discussion. Fat&#38;Happy (talk) 07:18, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I concede that some of the accomplishments mentioned above are, in your words "trivial", and maybe the article needs some brush-up but the reason I singled out the achievements of these two women is that their mention was, frankly, more appropriate in other articles. The issue was never about denying them recognition, something I thought I made clear. Another thing, simply because both entries have been there for six years doesn't imply an exemption from editing, I believe that is what this page is for and again I dont think that is what wikipedia is about. You may have formed an opinion about me but I should think it would be more constructive if we were all to be objective in this discussion. It may have been rash of me to delete the entries without proper consultation, but the edits can always be reverted should the majority of editors ultimately conclude it best to do so.197.176.164.68 (talk) 10:43, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * There's a unspoken dichotomy here that needs to be addressed: Not all significant color-breaking accomplishments are political or governmental. Popular culture, as has long been established in academia and elsewhere, is hugely reflective of the attitudes and mores of a time. To suggest that societal acceptance of the first black flight attendant or the first black Playboy Playmate is insignificant, for example, is to ignore two things: 1) the cultural prominence of such iconic figures, each as redolent with larger societal connotations as are those of "firefighter", "cowboy", or "Major League Baseball player", and 2) that the entrenched racism that kept blacks out of such high-profile positions was trivial. If the airlines or Hugh Hefner thought society would blithely accept black flight attendants or black Playmates, they would have had them as readily as, say, redheaded flight attendants and Playmates &mdash; because it wouldn't have been a big deal. But racism in American society was such that it was a big deal.


 * See footnote 41 about Marlon Green, and the fact it took a Supreme Court decision before major passenger airlines would hire a black pilot. Does that sound like a trivial or insignificant first? And the first black flight attendant may be even more so, as the airline figure far more visible to the general public than the pilot behind cockpit doors.


 * The first whatever this or that in the WWE? Not my cup of tea. But simply by demonstrating that large a swatch of the American viewing public who may not have much day-to-day personal experience with black people will accept a black wrestler is significant. (And this hasn't always been true; after black boxer Jack Johnson became champ, well &mdash; where do you think the phrase "Great White Hope" came from?).


 * High-profile advances in popular culture and the employment realm are important, for the reasons I give here.--Tenebrae (talk) 14:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * My good colleague Fat&#38;Happy appeared to have made the "incalculable significance" sarcasm, which isn't the most constructive form in a discussion. From my experience with him, this appears to be a rare lapse; I've found him to be a thoughtful and meticulous editor with whom I'm proud to work. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:04, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I also opine that the first black Playmate is a significant event. Consider that even today the depictions of nude African, let alone African American, women are infrequent. When one considers the demographic for Playboy is white audience, putting a Black woman as PMOY in 1965 was radical.  While it does sexualize the BW, it also creates a sense of beauty and desirability, and thus a level of acceptance.  It is possible some take issue it involves nudity in a "skin mag", but controversy is always in the eye of beholder. Flightsoffancy (talk) 17:24, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Josephine Baker
Until we can clarify this, I've commented out, but did not delete, this vague claim for the great Josephine Baker: "1927: First African American to star in an international motion picture: Josephine Baker in La Sirène des tropiques."

First, what does "international motion picture" mean? In the silent era, all pictures were international. Second, Paul Robeson was starring in films as early as 1924. Third, the Josephine Baker article itself doesn't specify this. And finally, since the footnoted source is a book, it would be practical to quote the pertinent passage, to see if perhaps the authors were clearer on this point. --Tenebrae (talk) 06:46, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

These firsts are all positive...isn't that biased???
Why isn't Tookie Williams recognized as the first African American founder of a mainly African American gang, the Crips? Why isn't the year the African American prision population percentage exceeded the African American national population percentage noted? Where is there a mention of the first African American race riot? Not all firsts are positive, and this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not inspirational reading. 65.6.3.48 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:29, 4 November 2008 (UTC).


 * These are race-baiting comments, and the examples you give are odd. Criminal gangs are not formal organizations, and are ill-defined. How many people does it take to make a gang? A hundred? Ten? Three? There were likely criminal gangs with African-Americans a hundred years ago or more. Your next example would list not a person achieving a first, but a year. This is a list of individual achievements, not years of statistical milestones. As for race riot, again, how do you define race riot? Is a slave uprising a race riot? How many people does it take before something is considered a "riot"?


 * Despite all this fuzzy thinking, you do make a point that this list should well include, if traceable and verifiable, the first Af-Am convicted of first-degree murder, or the first to be court-martialed, or impeached, etc. Such events are quantifiable, objective and defined. -- Tenebrae (talk) 02:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * African American criminal firsts should not be included. Such incidents are factual but outside the purview of this list, which is "achievements [that] historically establish a foothold [....] for more widespread cultural change." Criminality is a prejudice long associated with African Americans and thus are not achievements "breaking the color barrier." Locationx3 (talk) 02:22, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "outside the purview of this list, which is 'achievements [that] historically establish a foothold .... for more widespread cultural change.'" That starting proposition is POV, then. "First" should, IMO must, include all firsts. The first African-American gangster (Was that Bumpy Johnson? IDK.) surely produced "cultural change".
 * "Criminality is a prejudice long associated with African Americans" It's an artifact of the data collection. Is it biased? Yes. Ignoring it is, too, especially since the page is expressly centered on black firsts. Why not whites? Women? Blue-eyed people? Black women? Blue-eyed gay women?  TREKphiler   any time you're ready, Uhura  19:12, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Suggested criteria for inclusion or non-inclusion
Please sign each of your suggestions. Feel free to edit existing suggestions, but do not remove anyone else's suggestions.

Here are some proposed standards for inclusion or non-inclusion.


 * 1) Should be a notable or historic first and recognized as such by other sources.Mcusa (talk) 15:31, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) Should be positive in nature.  While we could include such items as "first African-American serial killer", the purpose of these articles is too show the general trend in African-American accomplishments.Mcusa (talk) 15:31, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * 3) When there is doubt, include the item.  This list is not an honor and a more expansive list which includes a few dubious achievements is more valuable than a restricted list which misses some important accomplishments. Mcusa (talk) 15:52, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * 4) No scripted firsts, such as in professional wrestling, in which the "accomplishments" are merely part of an assigned acting role. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * 5) Any first "overall" gold medal winner in a particular sport at the Summer Olympics or Winter Olympics. Examples: First AA gold medalist in Men's Singles Tennis, First AA gold medalist in Women's Singles Tennis, First AA gold medalist in Men's Doubles Tennis, First AA gold medalist in Women's Doubles Tennis, First A-A gold medalist in Men's Overall Gymnastics, First AA gold medalist in Women's Overall Gymnastics. Sports that do not award an overall gold medal do not qualify. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * 6) Any first in a specific career field category, but not sub-catergories or sub-specialites. Qualifying examples: First AA Male Medical Doctor, First AA Female Medical Doctor, First AA public school principal, First AA Major League Baseball manager, First AA public school teacher. Non-qualifying examples: First AA Male dermatologist, First AA female cardiothoracic surgeon, First AA National League baseball manager, First AA public school teacher in Michigan. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * 7) High-level federal or state politicians (president, vice president, prime minister, governor, U.S. Senator, U.S. Congressman, Speaker of the House, Cabinet members, etc.). Examples: First AA governor of California, First AA governor of Pennsylvania, First AA U.S. President, First AA U.S. Vice President, First AA U.S. Senator from Texas, First AA Senator from Wyoming, First AA U.S. Representative from Vermont, First AA U.S. Representative from Nevada. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * 8) Mayors of major cities (population of at least ??). --76.189.114.163 (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * 9) Academy Awards in major categories (Actor and Actress, Supporting Actor and Actress, Director) --76.189.114.163 (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * 10) Professional sports (major sports leagues only) - First AA manager, head coach or equivalent in any major sport. First AA MVP or equivalent in any major sport. First AA player in any sport. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * 11) NCAA college basketball and football (Division 1A only) - First AA head coach in basketball (male and female) or football, First AA Heisman Trophy winner; First AA MVP in each sport (male and female), First AA player in each sport (male and female). --76.189.114.163 (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Until we get the sockpuppet/meatpuppet issue noted in the previous section worked out, none of this has any bearing. While the list as it could probably use pruning, we want it to include the most notable, and not less notable achievements. First Olympic medal, male and female; first Olympic gold medal, male and female. And possibly a team medal if it included an African-American and came before either of the previously mentioned. Unless I'm missing anything &mdash; and there may well be a historical nuance I'm not immediately aware of &mdash; that should be the extent of this list's Olympic firsts. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:01, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm a rookie to wikipedia and have not done any major editing, that is true. I'm not sure what sockpuppet/meatpuppet is but I am not posting under any other usernames or IPs.Mcusa (talk) 15:39, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Also, please note we have separate articles for List of African-American U.S. state firsts and List of first African-American mayors, making two of the above points redundant.--Tenebrae (talk) 20:04, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Again Tenebrae, acting like you are the ruler of this article. You aren't. You can try to deny it, but the talk page discussions say it all, as does your editing history in this article. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 22:18, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Re: 1 The accomplishment should be notable and historic. Yes, source(s) would be needed but let's remember some of the items may not have a ton of sources. One would likely be able to find more sources and mentions for recent events than somewhat major accomplishments that happened decades - or even centuries - ago. An accomplishment which has hundreds or even thousands of mentions may be notable but not necessarily historic; therefore, I would venture to say it should not make the list. Re: 2. If we state "accomplishments" in the definition, shouldn't run into any issues with folks wanting to list pure firsts which may not be accomplishments but rather simply events. Re: 3 When in doubt, don't include, but instead utilize the talk page. Re; 5: First athlete to appear in an Olympics (Summer and Winter) and/or first to win an Olympic medal, and first to win gold overall. There are dozens of Olympic sports, even more so when counting both Summer and Winter. The list could easily become dominated by Olympic accomplishments which I don't believe is this article's purpose. If one wants to work to create a new article titled "African American Olympic Games firsts", then so be it. But I believe we should focus on solely the first AA to qualify for the Summer and Winter Olympics, first to medal in a Summer and Winter Oly, and first to win a gold medal (if the first winner happens to have won gold, then they would be labeled "first to win a medal and first to win a gold medal). I liken all the different Olympic sports to states -- if there is a separate article for "state firsts" then we could just as easily create a list for "Olympic firsts." We should have first male and first female (and whichever of the two sexes was first, would be considered the first overall). Re: 7 First overall elected state official, but not first for each state as there is an article for state firsts. First president, Senator, member from House of Representatives, cabinet position, and military general. I don't think it would be wise to list each specific department, either federal gov't-wise or military-wise. If there's a separate page for federal gov't officials (and military), then the heads of each specific dept's could be on that article. Re: 8 First overall elected mayor, first mayor of a major city. Let's see who the candidates are for this "major city" and then we can decide on what a "major" city is defined as. Or we could use an official definition from an organization like the U.S. Census Bureau if they should have a definition of "major" city. Re: 9 In addition to the big categories, I would vote for first overall Academy Award winner. If that happens to be a director, fine. If that's a screenwriter, fine. If a separate article is created for Academy Awards and awards given by other organizations, fine. Re: 10 For the actual major sports leagues, I would include more candidates than for the Olympics, as the major sports leagues as defined in North America all have their base in the U.S., and thus, unlike the Olympics, the sports leagues are very much a part of the historic precedent of the culture (i.e., American) at-large. I'd say first athlete to appear in a game, first manager/coach, first athlete/coach/manager to make the championship game of that sport, first athlete/coach/manager to win a championship in that sport, and first owner of a franchise in each of the 4 leagues. We could also have first commissioner of a particular league. Re: 11 Collegiate athletics would be largely the same for professional (not exactly, however), except like the Olympics, we don't need to have each sport have "a first." Also, we should have instances of male and female firsts. First to play in a game, first to manage a game, first to win a NCAA championship. If the award is notable in American culture, such as the Heisman, then a first for it could be included. 12 I would also say a first for business and TV network news. First CEO of Fortune 500 company, first on-air anchor/contributor, and first recipients of any major awards in said categories. Zepppep (talk) 23:41, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * This is an awful lot to wade through, but at least for now I see you're with the consensus that this article can't have a first for every Olympic sport, and that there's no consensus to add Gabby Douglas. --Tenebrae (talk) 04:24, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It is an awful lot to wade through. Such is the work in front of us if we want to get this article whipped into shape. Specifically, no, I'm not in favor of having a mention (current or future) of every AA for every Olympic sport. In fact, very few (see above reason #5 above). And, no, I'm not for adding another Olympic athlete to the article unless he/she fits the criteria I have suggested. However, if the individual you have raised a question about, Gabby Douglas, is the first female to win a medal or the first female to win a gold medal, in either the Summer or Winter Olympics, then yes, I am. Being as she is not the first black AA female to do either of those feats, the answer would be "no." I hope my efforts haven't been whittled down to only who is currently up for discussion as of August 2012, otherwise I'll be back at the same place in (enter future date [here]) when 2 users of differing opinions think Jane Doe ought to be on the list. And when that time comes, hopefully all an editor has to do is point to the definition of what the list in fact lists, making it clear why such individual is/is not allowed to be listed. And should the individual in question be involved in some sort of new activity/event/arena/field we haven't yet thought of today, or have done something worthy of a discussion of the merit of mention but that individual (whether it's a business person, or musician, or...) case isn't clear cut, they can come to this talk page and hash out their arguments. But those instances will hopefully be rare because we will have done the legwork today! Zepppep (talk) 05:29, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Apparently, Tenebrae either doesn't know how to read or he doesn't know how to tell the truth. He says to Zep, "I see you're with the consensus that this article can't have a first for every Olympic sport, and that there's no consensus to add Gabby Douglas." First, only one user (Mcusa) said that every Olympic sport should have a first, so that's never been an issue. As both Zep and I have instructed Tenebrae, read #5 on the list. But of course he refuses to acknowledge it, just as he does with any suggestions, comments or questions posed in this discussion. He thinks no one notices that he has yet to say one word about why fake wrestling firsts are on the list. TEN of them. Haha. Second, there's no consensus not to add Gabby Douglas either. But he presents it as if there is consensus not to add her. There isn't. Tenebrae just wants what he wants and that's all that matters to him. Can you count, Tenebrae? Besides you and Malik, who think you own this article, there are three editors who said that Douglas should be added: Evan, Mcusa and me. And Ryan is the only other person who said no. And Zep hasn't really said either way if he thinks Douglas should be added; he's been commenting, very nicely, on how this article/list needs a major overhaul, which of course Tenebrae refuses to acknowledge and keeps running away from. All he does is just keep finding excuses as to why nothing should change. And making false, out-of-context statements about how everyone supposedly agrees with him. Haha. He continues to post inaccurate information as if people can't read and see the truth of what's being said. And then he gets so threatened and worried about people saying there's problems with this article that he resorts to falsely accusing users of being sockpuppets, but doesn't have the guts to back it up by reporting it. Why? Because he knows it's not true and realizes he will be laughed at if he files it. He does it just to take the attention off the real issues that the rest of us are here to discuss. Tenebrae, you continue to think you own this article, but it's apparent that if anyone should be guiding this article it should be Zep, someone with an open mind and good faith intentions to improve this article. So why don't you stop interjecting your rulings on everyone's opinions in this talk page as you've been doing for years, and stop reverting edits in the article as you've also been doing for years, and let people who are neutral handle things. How can anyone take you seriously when you believe that the First WWE Diva should be on the list, but not the first Olympics overall gymnastics champion? --76.189.114.163 (talk) 14:59, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I did not say every Olympic sport should have a first, though I wouldn't be against that either. I just think that Douglas's achievement was notable - and it was widely reported as notable by major news outlets.  The major reason it was notable is that the women's all-around is top tier event. Mcusa (talk) 15:48, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Wait Mcusa, you can't reply to my comment because Tenebrae says you and I are the same person. So that would be like you talking to yourself. Haha! And sorry for the part where I said you're the only person who wanted every Olympic sport "first" included. I was just basing that on Tenebrae continually claiming you wanted that; I thought maybe you and he had talked about it off the page at some point. But I guess I should have learned by now that I can't believe one word he says. Anyway, your comment about the overall gymnastics gold being a "top tier" event is a valid point. First of all, there aren't that many "overall" golds at the Olympics. And the overall gold is gymnastics is clearly among THE most prominent accomplishments at the Summer games, as it's always one of the most featured and reported-on events among the media. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 16:20, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Since Tenebrae apparently doesn't understand why pro wrestling firsts shouldn't be on the list, and refuses to even address it, let me explain it to him. As an example, let's take this currently-listed first: "First African American to win the WWE Diva's Championship: Alicia Fox". Alicia Fox does not exist. Alicia Fox is an entertainment character played by Victoria Crawford. So the "championship" first is a pretend title given to a fictional character. So if that first is on the list, then we should add a listing for George Jefferson, the fictional TV character that was played by actor Sherman Hemsley on the TV show, The Jeffersons. Jefferson was the first AA Dry Cleaner of the Year in the U.S., so should we add that to the list, too? Hey, it's just as "worthy" as the wrestling character's first. Or how about J. J. Evans, the TV character on Good Times, portrayed by actor Jimmie Walker. Should we add a listing for "First AA National Young Artist Award winner" for J.J. Evans? Should we add a listing for every first an AA fictional character achieves? Of course not. They're all firsts within a fictional production. And even if a wrestler uses his/her real name (which most do not), it still wouldn't matter at all because all the "accomplishments" are still within a scripted, fictional production. So let's get all the wrestling firsts off the list to begin with, then the guidelines for all the real-life firsts can be focused on. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 15:27, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What is the rationale behind recent commenter(s) inclusion in regards to Olympic athletes? Male & female firsts? Which events? How many possible events would that be in total? Zepppep (talk) 16:07, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Zep, as I said in #5 on the Suggestions list above, I'm leaning towards listing only firsts for individual/overall golds in a particular sport, such as tennis and gymnastics. And, yes, male and female should each qualify IF the rest of the Firsts list includes both males and females. Here's a list of all the sports at the Summer Olympics. And here is the one for the 2010 Winter Olympics. As long as the the first is an indivdual/overall accomplishment as verified by the list of sports for a particular Olympics, then it would be fine. So sports like swimming would not qualify because it does not award any individual/overall golds, such as overall best swimmer. All of the many swimming events are equal; there's no major swimming gold that's above all others as in gymnastics. Having said all that, I am certainly open to hearing arguments for including the first gold in each sport. After all, the Olympics is the biggest international athletic competition in the world. It is not unreasonable to ask why the list includes, for example, each U.S. government department/cabinet first, but not the firsts in each Olympic sport? --76.189.114.163 (talk) 18:20, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I favor a separate article listing firsts in each Olympic sport and category of sport. I also support a separate article for any one field that has several "categories," because including all of those categories onto this article I feel is not the purpose of this article. When people go out talking during their daily lives, are they going to talk about "the first AA Olympic athlete to win the 200 IM relay" or "governor of ____" etc.? No, I think they will remember the bigger "firsts" which is what I believe this article is all about. If we started separating the business firsts we could find ourselves with a list that is is in the thousands. Military? Again, that's why up above I supported separate articles for such. Right now, I feel the article's criteria for inclusion is far too lax and it makes the article weak when it comes to usability. I feel separating male and female, Winter and Summer, first medal and first gold is already enough space on the article. By my count, that would be up to 8 individuals listed, and that is just for the athletes. The article suffers as it is ill-defined and its lead is weak. "Wikipedia:Featured list criteria recommends that "[a list] has an engaging lead section that introduces the subject, and defines the scope and inclusion criteria of the list". From Manual of Style/Lists. I feel this article, as is, has neither. (And I believe FIFA's World Cup qualifies as the biggest int'l athletic event.) Zepppep (talk) 02:10, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Zep, your points are excellent. I really like your idea of having a separate list devoted to Olympic firsts and others (such as the one for A-A mayors), and having the main list be only for very major A-A firsts. And btw, I said that events like 200 IM Relay should not be included. I explained that only overall/individual golds for a sport should be included. 200 IM Relay is not an overall/individual gold for the sport of track and field. Haha. But individual all-around gold  an overall award for gymnastics. And singles champion in tennis is an overall award for the sport of tennis. See what I'm saying? So, yes, your plan is great. But without question, all wrestling people must be removed from the list. Only real-life firsts should be included; no firsts for characters portrayed by actors. ;) And no firsts on the main list for random government departments either. Haha. Government departments can just have their own list, too. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 03:11, 7 August 2012 (UTC)