Talk:Timeline of African-American firsts/Archive 4

Request for Comment: Pro wrestling
It has been brought up on this talk page that due to the scripted nature of pro wrestling championships that this article's pro wrestling firsts be examined and pared down from the 10 existing categories. --Tenebrae (talk) 11:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Here are the categories: --Tenebrae (talk) 11:28, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * First African-American male professional wrestler to win a world heavyweight championship: Bobo Brazil (NWA)
 * First African-American wrestling manager: Slick
 * First African American General Manager for World Wrestling Entertainment: Theodore Long
 * First African-American Extreme Championship Wrestling champion: Bobby Lashley
 * First African-American female professional wrestler to win the NWA World Women's Championship: Amazing Kong
 * First African-American WWE Tag Team Champion: Tony Atlas (partnered with Rocky Johnson, a Black Nova Scotian)
 * First tag team made up of two African Americans to win the WWE Tag Team Championship: Men on a Mission (Nelson Frazier, Jr., aka Mabel, and Robert Horne, aka Mo)
 * First African American to win the WWE Championship: Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson
 * First African American to win the WWE Women's Championship: Jacqueline Moore
 * First African American to win the WWE Diva's Championship: Alicia Fox
 * Clarification: The 10 above are not categories, they are the existing pro wrestling listings. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 08:44, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Clarification: The 10 above are not categories, they are the existing pro wrestling listings. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 08:44, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 * All of the professional wrestling listings should be removed. They are all make-believe accomplishments of characters being portrayed by actors. Writers and producers create scripts, choreograph the "matches," and pre-determine the results. They assign some of the actors to play the role of championship title holders. It's analogous to putting on a stage production. See Professional wrestling, which explains in the lead that "Professional wrestling is a mode of spectacle, combining athletics and theatrical performance" and "The matches have predetermined outcomes in order to heighten entertainment value, and all combative maneuvers are worked in order to lessen the chance of actual injury." That article also alludes to how the championship "titles" are "mimiced," wikilinking to mock combat. An A-A stage actor would qualify for this article for earning the first Tony Award, for example, but certainly not for anything their fictional character did in the play. This article is about real-life firsts, not fictional ones within a script. It would be fine to include the first African-American to sign a professional wrestling contract because it's about a real-life actor achieving a "first" in a particular entertainment industry, which is no different than having the first A-A to sign a TV or movie contract. If you want to have a place for pro wrestling scripted accomplishments, such as championship titles, then create a new, separate article devoted to that topic only. --76.189.114.163 (talk) 18:27, 9 August 2012 (UTC) 18:38, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I would eliminate all of these. As noted above, first AA to sign with a major wrestling league, such as WWE or forerunners, would be historic.  Everything else is just fiction. Mcusa (talk) 18:56, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * In response to the RFC solicitation, I support 76.189.114.163's points in verbatim. —  C M B J   06:06, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I think only the first black male and female wrestlers in a major league, and the first manager. Were there any in the 1950s when they had pro wrestling on TV?--Farpointer (talk) 19:44, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with having only the first male and female to sign a contract in the industry. But not "manager." Again, "manager" is just a fictional role within a script, just like "champion" is. That would be like saying we should include the first mother in a TV series, or the first neighbor or police officer or doctor or any other type of fictional character category. :) --76.189.114.163 (talk) 19:58, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with having only the first male and female to sign a contract in the industry. But not "manager." Again, "manager" is just a fictional role within a script, just like "champion" is. That would be like saying we should include the first mother in a TV series, or the first neighbor or police officer or doctor or any other type of fictional character category. :) --76.189.114.163 (talk) 19:58, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I have to disagree with all of this. I would NOT delete any of it as these are accomplishments. These things have happened. To the person that said this article is about real-life firsts, being the first African-American winning a championship in wrestling or any sport for that matter is a very big accomplishment in our community. These ARE real-life firsts. It doesn't matter if it's on TV or if it's scripted. It happened. These accomplishments are in the record books, sealed in the books of African-American History. Just let it go and let it be. Don't take these accomplishments from us. They deserve to be up here in this article just as much as any other African American who became the first African American to do anything. Stop being a bunch of pathetic, jealous people. The King Gemini (talk) 02:29, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's stay civil. I might add the accomplishments of any individual, fictitious or real, may be in a particular organization's record book but that does not mean it meets WP's notability policy. The argument at-hand it not that the titles or matches did not happen, but rather if "winning" a pre-scripted match is worthy of inclusion to this article. The argument is also not biased towards/against items which were (or were not) televised. I'm not sure who you are referring to when you say "us" and "our community," as that implies something other than inclusion. If a user is arguing professional wrestling titles "is a very big accomplishment," cite sources in hopes of strengthening one's argument, showing others how widely it is talked about (finding mentions in reputable newspapers, journals, etc. and post links here). Currently the article shows importance to fictional items -- actors, comic book characters, etc. The first AA character to appear in a comic book may very well be notable and historic (thus, that is why is is on the article). However, the first time that comic character defeated any number of superheroes, or boarded public transportation, or any other things the character may have done are not mentioned. The comic book is a material thing, it was printed, the pages show it...but that alone does not merit inclusion. Zepppep (talk) 03:14, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * These "firsts" clearly don't belong. They only "happened" with the confines of a a fictional story and fictional events are not notable in this context. If sources independent from professional wrestling can be provided that indicate that others see these as significant accomplishments then I might rethink my position. -- Daniel  15:45, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Just an interim note, since no postings have been made for five days, that "Thirty days is the default length, but there is no required minimum or maximum length. ... If you need help determining the consensus at the end of a discussion, you may request that an uninvolved editor review, summarize, and announce the results of the discussion. Such requests are normally posted in the first section of the Administrator's noticeboard." It's been 11 days so far, and five without new comment. I would say if we go a week without new comment (about 48 hours from now) that I post such a request for an admin review so that we can wrap this up and address the next issue (Academia?). If anyone has any pertinent thoughts on this, please comment. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:16, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree to wrapping it up soon since there have been no comments. (I made similar RfC to Wikiprojects within the purview of this article which didn't garner any comments, so it doesn't come as a surprise.) I would say the next item to go to would be "Sports" since edits have been made to the article dealing with that category and it appears to be more of a pressing need. Zepppep (talk) 02:56, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me on both counts. I'll post a request. --Tenebrae (talk) 13:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Location
The location of a "first" is relevant. Getting a degree in Belgium equates color barriers with other countries that may not have existed in those countries, perhaps differently from barriers faced in the States. The article should consider the "firsts" of African-Americans who accomplished the feat within the borders of the United States or as an acting member of a group stemming from the States. Going outside the U.S. to obtain a PhD because perhaps that state or institution did not allow blacks to be admitted only reinforces a barrier, not highlighting a barrier being broken. If they went outside to obtain a degree not because of biased policies but out of choice, then I fail to see what barrier is being broken from one which results from choice. Zepppep (talk) 16:54, 6 November 2012 (UTC)


 * That's a good and well-thought-out point. I can see that and it makes perfect sense. And I can see the other side, in that by the very virtue of having to go outside the country to get a Ph.D., for example, it shows an African-American finding an innovative way to rise above the circumstances. If part of the significance of a first is that it serves as a role model and a precedent, being the first to get a Ph.D., for example, even if done outside the U.S., shows that this level of excellence can somehow be achieved no matter what.


 * So, I can go either way. If it's decided that the firsts have to occur within the U.S., we'd have to find some way to put that limitation into the defining opening paragraph in a way that doesn't seem either arbitrary or original research. And in cases where the first Af-Am achievement in a particular item occurred in another country that we note this in a footnote in order to be comprehensive. (I think we have something like that now with the first Af-Am pro hockey player who was preceded by an African-Canadian or something like that.) Overall: Good point to bring up for discussion, my good colleague Zepppep! --Tenebrae (talk) 19:02, 6 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Many thanks. It would have to ascertained as to whether or not any doctoral candidate programs were offered in the U.S. at that time. As of right now, there is no reference cited so that's an issue I have, as well. If someone is forced to go outside the U.S. to obtain an education, that precisely defines a color barrier but not one that has been broken. Also, I'd be interested to know just what sort of impact this individual made in the States when they obtained their PhD in Belgium. There are all sorts cans of worms with this one. This article has never been one about ability, but more so the relaxation of and changing of laws, rules, customs, thoughts, etc. Zepppep (talk) 22:46, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Brigadier General Cadoria?
I'm extremely curious as to how ret. Brigadier General Sherian Cadoria has been overlooked on this list? She was the first black female to be selected to attend the U.S. Army Command & General Staff College, and also to reach the rank of Brigadier General. Also, first black woman to serve as director to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, first WOMAN period to command an all-male battalion, and the first woman to lead a criminal investigation brigade. She has received three Bronze Stars, the Legion of Merit medal, and the Meritorious Service medal, among others. She didn't break through the glass ceiling, she destroyed it. Why is she missing from this list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.217.135.68 (talk) 00:40, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Cadoria was missing because nobody added her. Thank you for bringing her to our attention. I just added her to the list. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 00:51, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Moving years from bullets to Level 4 Header
I just made an edit moving from bullets to L4 headers. I'm guessing that editors went with this in order to suppress the TOC, but the addition of edit links for each heading should simplify editing. I also moved the entries from indents to bullets.

If there are objections, feel free to revert and discuss. — James Estevez (talk) 07:13, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

A.M.E. confusion needs sorted out
I went to the article African Methodist Episcopal Church, which is linked twice here closely together, and I still cannot make sense of what appears to be either redundant information or else differences that are so nuanced it's simply splitting hairs and can be addressed in one entry with a footnote.

Could someone please clarity what seems the duplicative entires of
 * 1793
 * First African Methodist Episcopal Church established: Richard Allen founded Mother Bethel A.M.E. Church, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania


 * 1816
 * First fully independent African-American denomination: African Methodist Episcopal Church (AME)

Adding to the confusion is the vague term "fully independent": If the denomination wasn't independent in 1793, then how could Mother Bethel A.M.E. Church have been an A.M.E. church? What would have kept that from being "fully independent" (and as opposed to what? "Partly independent"?). --Tenebrae (talk) 03:30, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sergeant Horatio Julius Homer
I'm new to Wikipedia so hopefully this is in line with the intentions of this board...

On this list is the following: 1878: First African-American police officer in Boston, Massachusetts: Sergeant Horatio Julius Homer.

It has a link to the reference but no Wikipedia article for Sgt Homer. This may not be the place to ask, but will there be an article written? If not, how does one go about suggesting and/or submitting an article?

Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Niccolea (talk • contribs) 00:24, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

First African-American to own land in Boston
There's a newly created article on Zipporah Potter Atkins, who purchased a home in Boston in 1670, which makes her the first African-American landowner in the area. Anthony Johnson (colonist) seems to have owned land a little earlier, 1651. I'm looking for more sources on this, and would welcome any additional help -- I think something on the first African-American property owners might be a good entry for this list? AmandaRR123 (talk) 14:57, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Citations tag
There are 193 citations, along with bluelink entries cited at their own articles. After nearly two years, there's been no discussion about the tag, which seems inappropriate. If no rationale is given for it in the next few days, it should be removed. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:36, 21 February 2015 (UTC)


 * It's been over two weeks. Since no editor has voiced objection here in the interim, I'll remove a tag that might have been appropriate when placed in March 2013 but is not so now. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:47, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

African-American or African American in the lists?
I think it should be "African American" without the hyphen but since both uses are present in the article, I am not sure which form one is correct. Here is an example about the first Senator First_African_American_Senator -Frmorrison (talk) 18:35, 16 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The phrase takes a hyphen only when it's a compound modifier. For example, "He is an African American" v. "He is an African-American scientist." --Tenebrae (talk) 23:28, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

List of African-American sports firsts
I've been WP:BOLD and have just created List of African-American sports firsts, which was probably overdue to be created. This now gives us a place to put sports firsts that aren't major, breaking-the-color-barrier type of national firsts. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:38, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Re: Olurotimi Badero
Hello, As an avid reader of wikipedia and a proud african american, I tried to add this noteworthy African American -Olurotimi Badero, MD to the list of African American Firsts and it seemed my inclusion was met with some opposition which I am quite surprised. One user mentioned the candidate is a nigerian and not an African american when infact the candidate is indeed an U.S Citizen who became a citizen well before being honored with this recognition by a Prominent Newspaper Company in Jackson Mississippi by way of Jackson Free press.

Secondly another physician was included in this list: {Ref 1831 First formally trained African-American Medical Doctor: Dr. James McCune Smith of New York City}

My question to this esteemed group is: If an African American is the first to pioneer a specialty in Medicine or become the first African American Neurosurgeon, is that not worthy of inclusion in this list? If not where?

Thanks for your suggestion Wesolutions9 Websolutions9 (talk) 16:22, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 1st -- The doctor was raised, and most of his schooling was, outside of the US. So he's not African American in the sense of this article.
 * 2nd -- I am not sure a combined speciality is notable enough for inclusion even if point 1 was not true.
 * Have a great day. Dave Dial (talk) 16:42, 3 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Concur. This article lists the initial breakthrough in a particular field, such as the first Af-Am doctor, or the first Af-Am medical-school graduate. We don't do the first for every single field: "first Af-Am eye-ear-nose-throat doctor," "first Af-Am sinus specialist," "first Af-Am urologist," etc. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:47, 3 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree as well. Plus, the doctor is Nigerian, not African American. (In the United States, the term "African American" isn't used to refer to an African immigrant to the U.S. See African American for more information.) 66.87.114.177 (talk) 17:35, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Mary Wells
Regarding the attempted addition of Mary Wells as first African-American singer to have a #1 hit, that's not really appropriate for this list. We wouldn't list "first African-American star of a #1 show" or "First African-American to have a movie open at #1", etc. Commercial acceptance by the public is not the same as personally breaking a barrier to let others — like, say, being the first African-American singer at a major record label. No one needed Mary Wells to hit #1 in order to allow them to hit #1 — the public buys what the public likes. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:53, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

"Best selling"?
In addition to the concerns above, the term "best selling" seems awfully vague without a context in this entry, which I haven't touched but which I think needs discussion. Thoughts?
 * First African American to record a best selling phonograph record: George Washington Johnson, "The Laughing Song" and "The Whistling Coon."

--Tenebrae (talk) 00:14, 28 February 2017 (UTC)


 * While I agree that "best-selling" is a vague term best avoided (and I haven't read the source cited), Johnson was the pre-eminent African-American singer of the early recording period. The title of the source notwithstanding, his cylinders and records were hardly "lost"; digital restorations can be found in almost any online archive of early recorded music. Two can be found in the "External links" section of his Wikipedia article.


 * The National Recording Registry describes Johnson as "the first African American to make commercial records" (he started in 1890) and describes "The Laughing Song", which is in the Registry, as "perhaps the most popular recording of the 1890s, and probably the first 'hit' sung by an African American." (search for Johnson or Laughing) — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:20, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

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2017
Where's the African-American firsts for 2017 and the rest of the years that have not been mentioned? --Thomas Mulligan (talk) 17:42, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:African-American gospel which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 23:21, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Ruth E. Carter and Hannah Beachler
I have plenty time to keep going back and forth with the sexist agenda. If reliable sources such as the New York Times, Variety, CNBC, Hollywood Reporter, and LA Times have said Carter’s and Beachler’s wins were historic, why is that not good enough for this podunk article about African-American firsts? I ever wonder... Trillfendi (talk) 22:14, 26 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Because this article does not, and cannot, include the first African-American winners of every award Hollywood gives itself, and the first African-American winner of every athletic event under the sun, and the first African-American to earn a degree in every academic discipline from every college and university in the world. It's limited to historic firsts. When it comes to Academy Awards, there are only a handful of important awards whose first African-American winners are worth noting. Otherwise, let's include everyone who was ever a "first African-American" in every human endeavor and turn the list into something completely meaningless. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 22:54, 26 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Support inclusion – RSes establish that these entires are notable and significant enough for inclusion. They both have their own WP articles. Meets the alphabet soup test (complies with WP:V, WP:SOURCELIST, WP:LSC, WP:NLIST and more). Leviv&thinsp;ich 23:04, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

I wonder what this discussion would be like if we had clear selection criteria. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 01:29, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Bot error
I reversed a bot today that created errors in this article. I went to report this at User talk:InternetArchiveBot. It directed me to the bug-reporting tool here. I entered the following:
 * Removing cited sources
 * At List of African-American firsts, the bot here removed links that had gone directly to the cited page of a book, and replaced them with to Internet Archive links that went to a book's cover and did NOT include the cited page. See the difference between this original citation and the bot's unhelpful replacement, which does not include the cited page. Likewise, see the difference between this other original citation and the bot's unhelpful replacement, which does not include the cited page.

I hit "Submit" and was taken to a page asking me to log in with my developer credentials. I have no idea if my bug report was submitted or not. I ask other editors to be vigilant about this bot on this page. --Tenebrae (talk) 11:31, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Trivial entries
While firsts are important benchmarks of progress, this list cannot (and should not) list absolutely every "first".

Yes, someone was the first AA president of the United States. That's clearly notable. Sources discussing the presidency, Obama, the United States, AA history and a thousand other topics regularly say he was the first.

Someone else was the first AA to become a licensed medical doctor in the United States. It's not in as many sources, but still discussed and sourced.

Someone else was the first AA on the Podunk County School Board. A local newspaper mentioned it. It's trivial.

Someone else was the first AA graduated by each and every medical school in the country. They're trivial.

Someone was the first AA commercial airline pilot. Another was the first AA pilot for Northwestern. One is significant, the other is trivial. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 17:56, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Then remove them. ⌚️ (talk) 19:28, 11 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, remove them. Bishonen &#124; talk 20:12, 11 February 2020 (UTC).


 * Agree. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:29, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, all. I haven't really combed through the entries currently in the article. This is more preemptive, as I've reverted a number of additions on this basis. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 01:20, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

3-in-1 first?
Under "First African-American attorney admitted to the American Bar Association" we have "Butler R. Wilson (June 1911), William Henry Lewis (August 1911), and William R. Morris (October 1911)."

It looks as if Butler R. Wilson was the first. I'm not sure why we have the second and third, but in case I'm missing something, I'll hold off for now on removing them while perhaps someone can apprise me. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:59, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

"One-drop rule" and assorted similar issues
Various entries are being removed based on the argument that "This should be removed from this list. (subject) was not African American, but was mixed race. The one-drop rule is defunct in law in the United States and was never codified into federal law."

While it is true the one-drop rule is largely defunct and was "never codified into federal law", it's irrelevant. This is not List of African-American firsts based on people who are or would be considered African-American by the one-drop rule or codified law under federal statute.

So, what are we to do: Determine standard definitions for the various fictional races, conduct extensive genealogies of proposed entries, examine the validity of claims that various of their presumed ancestors had to various races and determine if the person's ancestry is 100% or, perhaps, >50% African-American? No. While that might be something you'd want to undertake for your blog, that original research has no place here.

If independent reliable sources say Barak Obama is African-American, he is African-American for Wikipedia's purposes. That you might disagree is immaterial. Wikipedia reports what independent reliable sources say and such sources say that Obama is the first African-American President of the United States. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 22:18, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I’m convinced that person is a troll who should be reported. If history remembers a person as African-American they are listed as such. People like Frederick Douglass (clearly African-American) have a white parent because he was born into slavery (and, well, you know implicitly that slave women were often raped) but are still notable for their accomplishments as an African-American. The so-called one drop rule would apply to someone like Johnny Depp, whose only known African-American ancestor is from several centuries ago. I guarantee no one looks at Barack Obama as a white man. Trillfendi (talk) 23:45, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * If you think someone is a "troll who should be reported", discussing them on an article talk page is the wrong forum and might be interpreted as a personal attack. Feel free to report away at WP:AN/I, though I think it's rather early for that. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 03:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It’s not an attack to point out that their disruptions are troll like. For all we know it could be a bot. Who really knows. Trillfendi (talk) 04:33, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * A simple "welcome" template would seem to be a better assumption of good faith. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 04:56, 12 August 2020 (UTC)