Talk:Timeline of organized crime in Chicago

WikiProject
Please see WikiProject Organized crime (proposed) for details on this possible collaborative effort. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MadMax (talk • contribs)

Other crime groups
I think its important to include significant events that have happened with the street gangs and other organized crime groups operating or who formerly operated in Chicago, and not just include Outfit events. If anyone can find info or knows info, please contribute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.30.26 (talk • contribs)

Dead Links
The page should be checked for dead links. The external link referenced is not found. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.16.180 (talk) 08:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Operation Greylord
This cite and its details need adding in FBI note on Greylord. The entire city was in the outfit's control.86.42.204.187 (talk) 23:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Question
Am I alone in thinking that the Rod Blagojevich corruption charges don't belong in this article? Besides which, the entry is stale. He has been convicted, which is not reflected. But is public corruption in the 21st century really germane to the story of Organized Crime in Chicago? Gtwfan52 (talk) 07:14, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * removed several list items of elected official with no stated connection to organized crime Hugh (talk) 18:20, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Split discussion
As an article, this page is deficient in terms of WP:MOS, among its many issues is the lack of a introductory section or lede; also lack of narrative. As a list, this page is deficient in terms of providing explicit inclusion criteria. As it stands, this page is closest to an amalgam of two or possibly three separate lists.

I propose we split this page into two list articles:


 * 1) Timeline of organized crime in Chicago, and
 * 2) List of Chicago criminal organizations and crime bosses.

Please do not remove the split template until this discussion is closed. Thanks, Hugh (talk) 19:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Is this page a list in the sense of WP:Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists? Is this page a timeline in the sense of WP:CHRONO? Hugh (talk) 04:04, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

The history of organized crime in Chicago is an important aspect of the history of Chicago, and of wide general interest to those first coming to the topic of the history of Chicago.

Thank you to the editors who have made contributions to this page. In particular, thank you to the one editor who is responsible for most of the content through slow and steady progress over many years, clearly a labor of love for a fellow Wikipedian.

As a Chicago history buff I very much enjoyed reading the page as a web page. When I got through it, I was left with a powerful impression of a city roiled in organized criminal activity. However, when I was done, I had to wonder, how many Wikipedia readers could we expect to make it through, from start to finish? And I had to admit, it's not a very good Wikipedia article.

First and foremost, we must mention the total lack of a narrative. As Wikipedia editors we are bound by policies, perhaps most relevant here is the policy Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. WP articles are expected to be readable, that is, to have a narrative flow.

Wikipedia offers other special types of content that are more forgiving in this aspect of narrative, in particular, relevant here are the style guidelines WP:Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists and WP:CHRONO.

As it stands, this page is neither a very good article, list, or chronology. It seems to skirt all style guidelines by defying categorization which would commit to a particular set of guidelines. Fashioning this page as it stands into a decent WP article would seem to require organizing the bullet points into coherent paragraphs, and adding significant new content such that each bullet point flows logically into the next. This is a lot of work. Therefore the suggestions above. It's not just a rename suggestion, it's a suggestion that we decide what we are writing (article, list, chronology), pick a style guideline, and stick to it. The above suggestion will broaden editorial participation in this important topic, since a page with a title of "List of..." or "Timeline of..." sets up expectations for experienced editors which will encourage boldness.

Thank you again to the major contributors of this content. I respect the impressive elbow grease of those major contributors. It has been suggested that I be bold but I am reluctant to do so immediately as I am not one of those major contributors. I hope to hear from my fellow editors and in particular from those major contributors here. What do you think? Hugh (talk) 18:55, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Organized Crime in Chicago
Look, I'm only interested in bonafide Chicago gangsters and mobsters. The content concerning ex-IL Gov. George Ryan and such, on the "Organized Crime in Chicago" page, was already there when I first started adding content. I didn't delete it, because I'm so tired of fighting with *-holes on this site who have their "pet" articles, which nobody else can so much as correct for bad grammar. As far as the timeline link, it was here, too, when I began adding gangster content. Remove it also, if you want to. The criminal organizations content was also here when I started adding mobster content. However, I spruced that up; and, I think this content adds to the list of bonafide organized crime deeds on the page and vice versa. I would like that to stay on the page. Canihaveacookie (Talk) 3:54, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Closure of split discussion at Organized crime in Chicago. Move to this page
The following was left on my talk page. I thought it would be better discussed hereOp47 (talk) 22:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Hello. Thank you for your contributions. I am an active member of WP:CHICAGO. I noticed you recently closed the split discussion at Organized crime in Chicago with the reason "No support for split." However, the discussion did include some support for a split. The discussion was closed with only the view of one editor, the editor who started the discussion, who clearly favors the split. I would respectfully request the closure be backed out and the template restored. Once the discussion is open I would like to add some addition thoughts and try again to foster broader discussion and consensus on this problematic page. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 16:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Hello Hugh. Just to clarify, when I said no support, I mean't no one had supported you. Obviously you support your own proposal. Also, I came here as the volunteer who sorts out old split tags. My initial impression was that the tag and proposal had been forgotten and I couldn't justify making the split myself. I am pleased to see that I was wrong. However, I would prefer not to re-open the discussion as such because if you were going to achieve concensus that way then you would have done by now. As I see it, there are 2 other ways to try:
 * Open an RfC. These last for a month and tend to give a more clear cut view.
 * Be bold and make the split. If no one reverts then you have your concensus.
 * Hope this helps. Op47 (talk) 23:09, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply. I will take your suggestion to be bold. Hugh (talk) 18:57, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

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Regarding the Original 11 Black Book Members...
'''Current : ''' 1960 – The State of Nevada's Gaming Control Board first published the so-named, "Black Book", which had a short list of 11 names of men banned from all casinos in Nevada. 11 of the 11 men were allegedly associated with the Chicago Outfit: Sam Giancana, Murray Humphreys and Marshall Caifano, who sued on constitutional grounds and also seemingly for slander, but lost his case. The 'Black Book" is still published today.

Talk:

The actual original 11 are not all Chicago outfit guys:

Chicago

Kansas City
 * Salvatore Giancana (aka Salvatore Giancana, Sam Giancana, Momo, Mooney, Sam the Cigar, Sammy): a boss from 1957 to 1966
 * Llewelyn Morris Humphreys (aka Murray Llewelyn Humphreys, Murray Humphreys, The Camel, The Hump): an alleged lieutenant of Al Capone and Sam Giancana
 * Marcello Giuseppe Caifano (aka Johnny Marshall, Marshall Caifano): an overseer of mob-controlled casinos in Las Vegas who was suspected of numerous murders

Los Angeles New York
 * Nicholas Civella (aka Nick Civella): a mob boss (brother of Carl Civella)
 * Carl James Civella (aka Cork): in charge of day-to-day operations (brother of Nicholas Civella)
 * Motel Grzebienacz (aka Max Jaben): an associate and alleged lieutenant for Sam Giancana
 * Louis Tom Dragna (aka Lou Allen): a boss, who challenged the black book’s constitutionality
 * John Louis Battaglia (aka The Bat): an associate
 * Joseph Sica (aka J.S., Joe Sica): a racketeer involved in bookmaking, armed robbery, murder for hire, extortion and narcotics distribution
 * Robert L. Garcia (aka Bobby Garcia): an associate
 * Michael Coppola (aka Trigger Mike): a capo for the Genovese crime family