Talk:Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in January–June 2015/Archive 4

Two articles are needed to cover the year
I asked some advice from User:NSH001 on his talk page here. There are two problems. Nishidani (talk) 09:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The title change to a Timeline, belies the nature of the article, which is patently not a Timeline of the I/P conflict, but a register of the incidents of violence, excluding the political dimensions, accords, statements, financial breakdowns, closures of checkpoints or access etc.
 * As everyone agrees, the article is at the limits, length-wise, and should be closed at the end of June, with a second 2015 article created to follow on. The simplest solution is to specify this article is '(List of violent incidents) in the Israeli-Palestine Conflict:January to June 2015.’ And then ‘ (List of violent incidents) in the Israeli-Palestine Conflict: July to December 2015.


 * I've already written above that current, not NPOV++, version of article has no right to exist in Wiki at all :), but
 * if you are talking about return to a name of "List of violent incidents...", all what's been said about nonsense connection between Violence & Demolition and what might be ~ suffered under the "Timeline of " title, will return as well. --Igorp_lj (talk) 15:08, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

On my talk page, referred to by above, I suggested that any renames should go through the WP:RM process. I have modified this view, partly because of the imminent need to set up a new article for July–December. I am renaming this article to List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, January–June 2015, with the intention that its successor should be at List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, July–December 2015. I am renaming the predecessor articles, back to 2006, similarly.

The reasons are outlined in my reply to Nishidani on my talk page, but it is worth emphasising that, as this is a list article, it cannot be at anything other than a "List of ..." title; the rest of the new title is self-explanatory. And it also happens to be an accurate description of the list's content. Note that the moves of these articles were made without any discussion, so I don't see any great problem with my moving them back to something close to their original titles (a sort of slow BRD).

I note, for the record, that the predecessor articles are mostly in a very poor state, and that articles for 2009, 2010 and 2013 are missing.

--NSH001 (talk) 23:26, 30 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Igorp. I notified the page of this discussion a week ago. No objections were made. Unlike the unilateral, undiscussed change made to the title earlier, this move is logical and consistent with the content. Editors have had a week to discuss the proposed change. Nishidani (talk) 08:26, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


 * As I see you haven't replied to my "objection post" of 15:08, 23 June 2015, as well as NSH001 hasn't took it into account.
 * Now, after such "unilateral, undiscussed" renaming" I may only insist on removal from the "List of violent incidents..." all what relates to a Homes' Demolition, etc. --Igorp_lj (talk) 20:33, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

RfC - Is the lead appropriate or too long, non-NPOV and covers material unfit for this list?
There have been back and forth over the lead wording and sources for months now and it is about time to ask the wider community to give it a look.

The lead as proposed by some editors is-


 * This is a list of individual incidents and statistical breakdowns of incidents of violence, including property damage and expropriation,     involving a violation of rights, taking place between Israel and Palestinians in 2015 as part of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict, but exclusive of particular events that fall within the parameters of any full outbreak of war hostilities.


 * Housing demolitions are regarded by Israel as justified as a deterrent response to acts of terrorism or on the grounds that the houses in question in East Jerusalem, and the occupied West Bank were built without permits from the Israeli Military Authority governing the West Bank. The practice is condemned as discriminatory, a form of collective punishment, sometimes as a war crime in violation of international law, by the United Nations, many human rights organizations, the United Nations, and scholars such as Meron Benvenisti and Saree Makdisi. Israel has clashed with the EU's funding and construction of buildings for Palestinian residents in Area C, and ordered the demolition of 400 units saying that under international law, such structures do require Israeli permits.

Other editors have argued the lead and quotes in sources are unnecessarily long, not NPOV, WP:UNDUE and covers Housing demolitions which should get a separate list.

Various discussions on the subject can be found above in talk page. 21:18, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * While there maybe a call for an article on Israeli demolition of Palestinian houses, such an article would need to be the entire practice of Israel doing so and not just for the year 2015. Regardless, the creation of such an article would create an exclusion of this information from here. NPOV and DUE weight polices do not require us to cover Israel's wort's. They actual require us to show those wort's.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:53, 24 May 2015 (UTC)


 * It already exists: House demolition in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. --Igorp_lj (talk) 22:51, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * That is not a list, which this is. This article deals with incidents illustrative of conflict between Israel and Palestine. The practice of demolishing people's homes in an occupied territory is regarded, see the sources, as a violation of international law. It is self-evidently relevant, unless of course you prefer to think that razing 25,000 homes in 50 years on foreign soil, while denying permits for building isn't noteworthy as an integral factor in the conflict.Nishidani (talk) 15:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * See WP:SPLIT. The size of this article warrants does warrant a size split. At thin point nothing else should be added to the list. However the split that is being called for looks more like WP:POVFORK. Instead I'd propose a size split. Breaking off the months of Jan-March would result in an article of about 90 KB. The scope of the topic would justify the size. However this is still rather large. Splitting the months of Jan-Feb into their own article would result in an article of about 70 kb.


 * Some of the content could perhaps be summarized a little better before a size split. The Large paragraphs before the bullet points in each month section. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * It will probably need to be broken in two parts. We are near the half way year mark, and I've always thought a split Incidents...2015, Jan-May' and Incidents . .2015, June-December'' the probable solution. There are larger articles than this, or articles with far more footnotes, dealing with a smaller time frame.Nishidani (talk) 21:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The WP:POVPUSH is done by putting both lists together to begin with which put House Demolition together with stabbing or uprooting trees while many people will argue those two have NOTHING to do with one another. Maybe we should include PA asking FIFA to expel Israel as belong in this list.
 * This list in the prior years didn't include those and obviously there is no concensus for their inclusion now. The fact Nishidani fights any editor who protest it don't justifies it.95.86.89.17 (talk) 19:01, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Read the lead definition of the article:
 * "This is a list of individual incidents and statistical breakdowns of incidents of violence, including property damage and expropriation, involving a violation of rights"
 * This is what is listed. I've left out more than half of what I read, for WP:RS grounds. Both POVs are included, and the Palestinian POV considers all of the issues mentioned so far 'incidents of violence, property damage and expropriation, involving a violation of' their rights. Nishidani (talk) 21:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Timeline_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict,_2014 It's include in this list from prior years. I also notice that you're basically arguing that your WP:Local consensus carries over. That's really a bad argument and it ignores Consensus can change. I also notice that you fail to provide no substantive argument for your positions. I can't say what many people will argue because I'm solely myself and I speak solely for myself. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
 * There was no consensus for the inclusion to begin with. Just one editor who feels like he WP:OWN the article.95.86.89.17 (talk) 21:29, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
 * This argument is also lacking. First, consensus is not a vote. Second, RFC's are designed to get a consensus.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:03, 27 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment, not being actively involved in editing in this subject matter, list of every single event IMHO appears to fall under WP:NOTNEWS. Perhaps summarizing paragraphs about certain categories is sufficient and might help with the WP:TOOLONG issue.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:09, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep housing demolitions out of lede The lede is meant to summarise the article. While housing demolitions come up a lot in the article, so do many other forms of conflict which arent given any mention in the lede. Either bring more stuff into the lede or take housing demolition out.Bosstopher (talk) 15:33, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The lead defines what the article lists and summarizes its contents. As you note, house demolitions are registered in the body of the article. Can you identify 'many other forms of conflict' between Israel and Palestine which are not alluded to in the lead? Have I missed something? Nishidani (talk) 16:35, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * They make a great point. The lede is unbalanced as is. A simple solution would be to simply remove housing demolitions from the lead. Another solution would be to expand the lead.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:45, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment I do not think that the lead is at all long given the nature and length or the article. It is a timeline.  It presents a list of events that may well be disjointed in all things bar chronology and a decent summary in the lead, I think, is called for.  Page searches indicated the word usages of:
 * "house" 22 times, "demolished" 22times, "demolition" 22 times, "razed" 17 times,
 * "killed" 12 times, shot 128 times, "stabbed" 15 times, "throw" 59 times, "threw" 7 times, "wounded" 45 times, "injured" 105 times, "assulted" 23 times,
 * "tree" 57 times, "cut down" 5 times", "chop down" 5 times, "chopped down" 5 times,
 * "protest" 40 times,
 * These figures give no indication as to what actions were performed by which ratio by either side but I think that they give an indication of the range of some of the notable activities concerned. There can also be other actions not mentioned like the segregation of checkpoint queues between West Bank residents and people with Israeli, foreign or settler identifications or the building of a large grey wall to block a view that an old man had previously known from his house from childhood.  I don't see the benefit of removing content from the lead unless it were to be moved to a connected and complimentary article.  However the, I think, currently moderately short lead could well be expanded perhaps with current content summarised.


 * pinging:  GregKaye 12:01, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't really see the page search summary you are discussing as being all to useful for anything really. But yes I'd agree that it would be better to expand the lead.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 14:13, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Reminder
Let's do not forget to add: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Igorp lj (talk • contribs) 20:43, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Monthly Summary – June 2015

NPOV
(Please do not remove, it's reminder about such topics in Archive, where consensus hasn't been reached) ... --Igorp_lj (talk) 15:46, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
 * POV Disaster
 * NPOV
 * POV Tag
 * Factual accuracy tag
 * Disputed and one source tags
 * Timeline incidents

See also: Talk:List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, July–December 2015 --Igorp_lj (talk) 01:34, 26 October 2015 (UTC)