Talk:Timeline of the Russian invasion of Ukraine (8 June 2023 – 31 August 2023)/Archive 1

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 June 2023
Section "10 June" - requesting a spelling error correction: Change Odessa to Odesa. Thanks 188.122.215.61 (talk) 15:12, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: They are the same, not misspelling. -Lemonaka‎  17:19, 10 June 2023 (UTC)


 * No - they're not the same. Odessa is the incorrect transliteration, used mostly in archaic & outdated English-language sources or, nowadays, intentionally by the Putin's regime & other Russian Nazis. Keeping it in the article is quite offensive towards the victims of the war crimes of the Russian fascist aggression. Please do consult Redirect too. Thanks.--188.122.215.61 (talk) 18:46, 10 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Well - actually already done by another user in between. Still don't get why my first request for such trivial spelling correction was initially denied under a blatantly false pretense... --188.122.215.61 (talk) 21:36, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 July 2023
An business should be a business 80.208.69.53 (talk) 10:42, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.  𝙳𝚛𝚎𝚊𝚖𝚁𝚒𝚖𝚖𝚎𝚛  𝚍𝚒𝚜𝚌𝚞𝚜𝚜  13:44, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Prolog (talk) 12:19, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 July 2023
There is a spelling error in the July 19 section: The Ukrainian military claimed to have pushed out *tRussian* forces from its positions near the village of Orikhovo-Vasylivka, northwest of Bakhmut. Agartha358 (talk) 18:10, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done Xan747 (talk) 20:59, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Girkin's arrest
Hiya,

Igor Girkin was arrested today. We should probably mention this in this article, and I lack the extended-confirmed privileges to add this information. Source: https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/18331337 Mirrortemplar (talk) 11:10, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done ARandomName123 (talk) 16:26, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 July 2023
Edit request, section "25 July": Please delink "Sergei Kotov" - the article Sergei Kotov is about a retired Israeli figure skater, not about a patrol ship. Or can be changed to Russian patrol ship Sergey Kotov or "Project 22160 patrol ship Sergey Kotov", but the figure skater is simply wrong here. Thanks 2A00:102A:4000:17CC:2404:8330:6199:FC4E (talk) 17:08, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Deauthorized. (talk) 17:22, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 August 2023
Change "Russian claimed to have shot down a Ukrainian drone over Belgorod Oblast." To "Russia claimed to have shot down a Ukrainian drone over Belgorod Oblast." Or "Russian authorities claimed to have shot down a Ukrainian drone over Belgorod Oblast." Not a kitsune (talk) 15:57, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done The original editor seems to have fixed it themselves. Deauthorized. (talk) 09:11, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 September 2023
In the August 31st section, the amount is written as, "$3-$15,000". Change to be, "$3,000-$15,000" instead to remove any confusion. SomeoneOK (talk) 14:25, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 15:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Lobkovo
The article currently lists Lobkovo as a village that was recently liberated from Russian occupation. The wikilink, however, leads to an article about a village in Russia itself (Vladimir oblast), which cannot be correct. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:3D99 (talk) 08:00, 13 June 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅. The link now points to Lobkove. HappyWith (talk) 20:53, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Shulgin?
The September 14 entry mentions Europe lifting sanctions on a businessman named Alexander Shulgin, but the wikilink leads to an American chemist who has been dead for years. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:6466 (talk) 15:03, 15 September 2023 (UTC)


 * . I changed the link to point to Alexander Shulgin (businessman), which is a red link right now, but shouldn't be misleading like the old one was. HappyWith (talk) 19:28, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

September 13 shipyard link
Please change Sevmorzavod to Sevastopol Shipyard. It is part of the "SevMorZavod" enterprise. 82.194.220.91 (talk) 12:37, 13 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Done. Borgenland (talk) 13:37, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Casualties - 13 June
"The Ukrainian general staff claimed that Russia had lost 217,330 troops in Ukraine since February 2022, with an estimated 680 casualties on 13 June, as well as 3,943 tanks..." Well, they publish the statistics daily. What makes this piece specifically notable? Each one can be found on their website, on Facebook, and on the website of the Belarusian exile outlet Zerkalo. Wikipedia is not a newspaper. --2A02:AB04:2C2:E300:4C7F:8652:385F:CB63 (talk) 18:02, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

French/Italian SAMP/T medium range system delivered
Hi there, France confirmed on June 19th that the SAMP/T air defense system (the one made with spare parts from France & Italy and annoucned in February) is "delivered and operating" in Ukraine on June 19.

Announce by French President Emmanuel Macron, system is "delivered to Ukraine and now active" ("livré en Ukraine où il est désormais opérationnel")

https://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/europe/manifestations-en-ukraine/guerre-en-ukraine-un-systeme-de-defense-sol-air-de-fabrication-franco-italienne-livre-a-kiev-annonce-emmanuel-macron_5898578.html 178.23.152.132 (talk) 09:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Source :


 * Worth pointing that you find traces of it arriving in Ukraine as early as mid-may, however the source I linked is an official confirmation from the French president that it's full & working. (When you dig into it, it seems the system was build with spares from both Italy and France to assemble a complete system, so it's quite possible one one half arrived in may 16, however that's analysys and not Wikipedia's editors' job)
 * "partially delivered to Ukraine in may16"
 * https://www.forcesoperations.com/la-batterie-samp-t-franco-italiennee-partiellement-livree-a-lukraine/ 178.23.152.132 (talk) 11:25, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Move 4 June - 7 June
The 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive article cites the start date as 4 June, so I'm wondering if maybe we should move the respective dates to this article. Great Mercian (talk) 00:43, 23 June 2023 (UTC)


 * It has a debate about it starting the 4 or the 8, with multiple people agreeing it's rather the 8.
 * The 4th date seems to be just based on unconfirmed Russian claims.
 * I'm fine with the counteroffensive article mentioning the various date, however I'd better see the timeline date changes at the date with the most agreement, ie the 8th 178.23.152.132 (talk) 13:01, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, I think I'll wait until that debate's over. Great Mercian (talk) 16:21, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Fake Russian soldier exposed
Not sure if this belongs in the timeline or not. The man was never actually in Ukraine, but he was widely believed to be by his numerous social media followers, and his videos helped arouse Chinese sympathy for the Russian military. Certainly, the fact that he was able to pull it off for so long is a testament to how powerful deepfake technology has become. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:FE1B (talk) 00:47, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

How an Ukranian or Russia state funded newspaper is consider a source?
Any time I look a source in the reference section and see "Kiev independent" for example I rolled my eyes. How could a news outlet that have a crearly side taken could be consider a reliable source if the content can't be verify indepently? 2800:810:464:840A:CDBD:C328:1C10:E2EC (talk) 02:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The Kyiv Independent is not state run nor funded. --2A00:102A:4018:C962:ED8C:9CB6:9C33:9471 (talk) 04:19, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

50 - Number of French SCALP
Hi there, While president Macron didn't confirm the number of SCALP, some diplomatic sources talk that it's 50. Source on that https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/11/what-are-frances-scalp-missiles-and-how-can-they-help-ukraine

"Macron did not say how many of the missiles would be sent but a French diplomatic source told the Reuters news agency they were talking about 50 SCALP missiles."

Can you update that ? Do you need other sources on that ? 178.23.152.132 (talk) 07:01, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Link incorrect
The link of a thwarted attack on july 25 is linked to a figure skater, not the ship. THEREALhistoryandgames (talk) 17:10, 25 July 2023 (UTC)


 * It has been unlinked. Deauthorized. (talk) 17:31, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Contents
On 23 June and 24 June, there is a space between ( and Ukraine. Can this be rectified please? Great Mercian (talk) 09:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * There is no problem with it. That's how it is. 🛧 Layah50♪ 🛪 ( 話す? 一緒に飛ぼう！  ) 07:07, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It kinda is though? it's a little disorientating when it's ( Ukraine) or ( NATO Summit) Great Mercian (talk) 21:41, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Pardon. I made those subsections since it was too heavy to read and edit within just one section, given that standout events related to the war also happened on those days. Borgenland (talk) 05:51, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

A suggestion
I would suggest do not include events unless there is a confirmation that such events did actually happen, and this is something notable, i.e. it was debated in several independent sources. For example, The governor of Russia’s Belgorod region has said that Ukraine fired cluster munitions at a village near the Ukrainian border on Friday, but that there were no casualties or damage.. How do we know this claim was true, i.e. the Ukrainian forces indeed fired cluster munitions at the village? "no casualties or damage" does sound strange. Any confirmation other than a claim by a single person? And if they did it, was it something notable, which is by definition something debated in a number of RS? My very best wishes (talk) 21:49, 22 July 2023 (UTC)


 * - Besides, why should we use a blog when there is a regular article by same news source on the same subject, and it tells something very different. I can refer to BBC as an additional source about it . Why should we include the ridiculous (and completely unsupported!) claim about Ukrainians killing their own people? My very best wishes (talk) 23:44, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * As a reminder, this is new content. I removed it per WP:BRD. One needs WP:Consensus for including it. My very best wishes (talk) 23:51, 22 July 2023 (UTC)


 * In other words, not every unsubstantiated claim belongs to the timeline. For example, an actual advance by Russian forces (as documented in multiple RS) would deserve inclusion. However, just a disputed claim about a minor advance (like that ) would not. Same with a single not named person being allegedly injured, an unsubstantiated claim by a single person about a minor attack that resulted in no casualties, and so on. OK, if there are no objections here, I will remove some of that. My very best wishes (talk) 20:31, 23 July 2023 (UTC)


 * It was for technical reasons but I have also expressed concerns about the "liveblog" links before, here. — Paleo  Neonate  – 17:58, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello. For the record I had stopped liveblogging when I found more permanent articles. I included some Russian claims if there was no other way to get some info from horse mouths (citing exceptions to Wikipedia consensus) but did not include fringe allegations such as Satanism and Poland gobbling up things. For battlefield movements, I do acknowledge that I am confused as to where balance lies so I did leave out some things as disputed, while preferring reports with numbers on it to be sure. Finally as I mentioned in a revert, war is a multifaceted affair that is not only fought on the main battlefield or with guns, which is why I also tend to have wordy edits. Borgenland (talk) 06:04, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am only saying that one should not include claims that are obviously false for anyone familiar with the subject. All info should be generally cross-verified by comparing several sources. Claims that are simply disputable and insignificant? I would also say no. This is not an indiscriminate collection of information. My very best wishes (talk) 21:17, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * For example - an objection to promise to provide a hundred cars - does it deserve inclusion? My very best wishes (talk) 21:16, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Isn’t the diplomatic front significant? Borgenland (talk) 22:37, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is extremely important - in general. But this? No, not really. Did Japan stop delivery because of it? If so, that could be something notable. My very best wishes (talk) 18:50, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Volodymyr Havrylov incorrect link
See above Mrarthtato (talk) 12:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)


 * . HappyWith (talk) 21:27, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 October 2023
Please change 'Ppresident Joe Biden' in Oct 3 to 'President Joe Biden' Unit1208-35 (talk) 03:50, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Tollens (talk) 04:02, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Wagner mutiny - should we consider it part of the invasion?
As the Wagner Group is now fighting against the Russian army, and has allegedly taken Rostov and Voronezh, a lot of developments will probably occur on this front. Should they still be included in the timeline as part of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, or be considered a separate but related conflict and only be included when relevant? Chaotic Enby (talk) 10:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I think it should be mentionned in the present timeline - at least when it's related to Ukraine counteroffensive. Right now it does, because troops withdrawal and confusion do have an impact on Ukraine's action.
 * ISW 23rd statement do mention it should you need a source, and will probably tomorow on the 24th
 * It 100% needs a detailled separate article too (I can't create it as an IP user) but I'm thinking wikipedia should have timeline mention on it, especially the start that we see 5.51.183.7 (talk) 12:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, article already exists
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group_mutiny 5.51.183.7 (talk) 12:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Could you confirm if Vladimir Putin ordered a purge in the Russian military following the Wagner rebellion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.210.117 (talk) 06:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * No, not yet.
 * While it's credible that it does, the best we have is ISW's statement that Shoigu sheenanegans might be related to the Kremlin action (without using the word "Purge"), and that the Kremlin talk down about Wagner/Prigozhin might also be in retalation, without using the word "purge" again.
 * A quick google search show me various articles asking themselves if "purge" it is rather than agreeing it actually is. 178.23.152.132 (talk) 12:38, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Is there a link between the war in Ukraine and what the Wagner Group is currently doing in Africa? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.210.117 (talk) 06:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)


 * So far none directly. Borgenland (talk) 06:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Crimean raid
There was a raid in Crimea that supposedly captured territory I don’t know if they are still there and what territory they gained https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-special-forces-daring-amphibious-raid-crimea-raised-flag-russia-2023-8 HuntersHistory (talk) 05:51, 25 August 2023 (UTC)


 * https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/24/europe/ukraine-crimea-operation-russia-intl/index.html HuntersHistory (talk) 05:54, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Reports say Special forces landed on the western shore of Crimea, near the settlements of Olenivka and Mayak, Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance group landed in the area of Cape Tarkhankut, shelled the camping on the seashore and fled in the direction of Odesa, Special units on watercraft landed on the shore in the area of the Olenivka and Mayak settlements,” HUR said, it is unknown what Ukraine goals was but it is said to be achieved,Unofficial Russian social media accounts have spoken of firing near a campsite at Cape Tarkhankut – the westernmost point in Crimea – before dawn on Thursday, also Ukraine has flew it flag over Crimea once again, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BFmVxEjWrA0&pp=ygUvVWtyYWluZSBmbHlzIHRoZSBmbGFnIGluIHJ1c3NpYSBvY2N1cGllZCBjcmltZWE%3D HuntersHistory (talk) 06:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry I just notice it is included. HuntersHistory (talk) 06:37, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Is this a timeline or daily updates from Kyiv Independent?
More than half of the content in this article consist of what i consider repetitive daily updates from The Kyiv Independent. It's all just:

"X amount of person was killed by Y shelling in Z oblast" "Y claims to have shotdown X amount of drones in Z oblast, injuring A amount of people" "Y claimed to have advanced exactly 7.5 square centimeters and advancing toward the main bedroom direction"

my deepest apology but i don't consider these as "wiki-worthy". And no this article is not complaining if kyiv independent should not be used as source 36.68.45.217 (talk) 12:11, 29 August 2023 (UTC)


 * It is not my fault that the Kyiv Independent happens to be the first to report the matter, nor the fact that the rest of the big media sometimes gets delayed. And I will leave it to the consensus of the rest of the community to be the judge of how many people must die and how many air raids occur or how much dramatic effect they cause before they deserve to be included in the timeline.
 * Finally, those advances you want to downplay are announced on a weekly basis and are vital in fixing the invasion map. Borgenland (talk) 13:23, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

BAE have not set up manufacturing facility
The final line of the current page (1st Sept) suggests that BAE have set up a manufacturing facility when they have merely set up a legal entity.

According to the article cited: "The BBC understands that BAE has no current plans to open a physical office or a factory in Ukraine." 31.205.4.51 (talk) 08:33, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Igor Kolomoisky - Direct Relevance
Someone PLEASE re-add the information related to Igor Kolomoyskyi's Arrest.

Whoever removed it did so under the pretense of not being directly relevant to the war. This is one of the most absurd claims I've ever seen.

Kolomoyskyi one of the most highly prominent actors in the events that have unfolded in Ukraine.

-Speculative reasoning and possibly WP:OR. Even the source cited nor the charges against him does not mention his involvement in the conduct of the war. If he were in the order of battle or got killed wounded captured seized power enlisted or sanctioned that would have merited his inclusion. Lastly, you didn't even bother to sign in to give others the right to reply. Borgenland (talk) 13:23, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Please add a description of an important fact to the August 9 section
Russian pilot Maxim Kuzminov flew a Mi-8 military transport helicopter to a Ukrainian Air Force airbase, two members of the helicopter’s crew were killed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tit Gornos (talk) 18:28, 9 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Moved already. Borgenland (talk) 03:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Chechnya
Is there any further news about the Chechen leader (who sent troops to Ukraine early in the war) being found in a coma? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.210.117 (talk) 06:46, 20 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Kadyrov? Personally I haven't added them since this was a serious issue and sounded a bit speculative, considering that it was first reported by Ukraine, and also since his illness is not necessarily due to the war. It will probably be included either if he dies or his condition (if confirmed) directly affects the performance of Chechen units. Borgenland (talk) 06:54, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Granada European Community Summit
Can it be confirmed that at this summit currently being held in the Spanish city of Granada, President Zelensky warned that if Putin is not stopped, then Russia will invade the Baltic States within the next 5 years? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.210.117 (talk) 06:18, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

New page?
I remember somebody saying during one of the earliest split proposals that once a page hits 1000 sources, things start to break (or something like that). Currently we're on 997. I think we really need to start considering making a new page for October. Great Mercian (talk) 10:00, 1 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I dunno if that's true, I couldn't find anything about that supposed technical limitation at Article size. You might be thinking of user Tol saying in the first discussion that we should split when "readable prose size increases to 100 kB"?
 * The article actually is well over 100 kB, so maybe that's a good idea. It'll be the first time we split the timeline not based on "phases" of the war but on simple size problems, so the exact dividing line might end up being kind of arbitrary. I'd like to hear more input from other editors though, since I'm not totally sure on the relevant guidelines. HappyWith (talk) 19:20, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I found the comment I was referring to. It was from TulsaPoliticsFan saying "I do not have a take on whether or not to split the article now, but I did want to make sure that editors know that there are technical limits on the pages length. When editing the 2022 United States House of Representatives elections page this year, we noticed that at around 1,000 citations the article starts to break and not display citations correctly. This article isn't near the citation limit yet, but since the article gets bigger everyday its worth keeping in mind there are hard limits on wikipedia article lengths eventually." kencf0618 did follow up with "Just so. Eventually it'll be modularized à la Timeline of the COVID-19 pandemic. Can't not be."
 * (pinging and  to get their input.)
 * Great Mercian (talk) 20:36, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Interesting question. On the one hand there is a hard technical limit. On the other hand there shall again be a plethora of events in the time frame of hours and days given the cadence of war (i.e. weeks happening in hours). Perhaps complementary timelines of differing granularity...? kencf0618 (talk) 12:59, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not seeing the same error that I saw in 2022; that could be either because it was fixed or that we haven't hit the citation limit yet. You'll know when you hit the cite limit (if there is one now) when new citations aren't appearing correctly. I can't remember if there was an error message or if it just kept repeating one of the last citations, but it was a noticeable error. It started happening somewhere between 1,000-1,1000 citations back in early 2022. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 20:47, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, yeah, it's happening now. Check out the navbox template at the bottom of the page - I think we've hit the template limit. I remember this happening at List of musical works in unusual time signatures. A split of some sort is necessary now, so someone should propose that. HappyWith (talk) 03:56, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should cut it off on 1 October pending the absence of a groundbreaking event. Borgenland (talk) 11:45, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree, but what should we name it? 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive II? Great Mercian (talk) 21:36, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * We're not talking about the counteroffensive article, just the timeline. HappyWith (talk) 23:54, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * At the bottom of the page,  is not transcluding properly, likely due to the «too many nodes» issue. Tuvalkin (talk) 11:44, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It crashed my web browser when I tried to open it, so, as much as I find it funny to have an article I created accidentally hang out on the main page for so long, I think a split is well overdue. ChaotıċEnby ( talk ) 15:56, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

For purposes of comparison, both the Timeline of the Yugoslav Wars (1991-2001) and Timeline of the War in Afghanistan (2001-2021), before and after the establishment of Wikipedia on January 15, 2001, respectively, are both very compact. A very different information era now... kencf0618 (talk) 14:32, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Great Mercian (talk) 21:35, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Ballistic Missiles or the Lack of it
Has anyone tracked Ballistic Missiles used by Russia in this conflict.

Thanks to Cold War Russia has largest reserve of Ballistic Missiles. Russia claims to 6,257 Nukes at least a 3rd of them have missile delivery systems. These Nukes with Missile Systems can be refitted with conventional war heads.

Missile Systems are expensive, but if western media is to be believed well Russia is losing the war. So why hasn't Russia exploited its Ballistic Missiles to decimate Ukraine.

Optics & Propaganda are decisive in modern conflict. Body Bags going back to Russia do Putin and the Russian State great disservice. Ukraine is the underdog fighting to stay alive. Ukrainian casualties are a mere static and have no relevance unless, Russian State is prosecuted for War Crimes at Hague. But Russian casualties have a great impact on Russian State especially Putin's Presidency.

Tanks Howitzers Rockets are cheaper than Missiles however Russia is not winning. So why hasn't Russia used its trump card Ballistic Missiles?

103.178.144.63 (talk) 08:38, 7 October 2023 (UTC)


 * This is not WP:FORUM. Borgenland (talk) 08:41, 7 October 2023 (UTC)