Talk:Times Square/Archive 2

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County/Borough
p.147 says:

"boroughs. The five administrative divisions of New York City, created by consolidation in 1898. Each borough elects a borough president and is coextensive with one county: Manhattan with New York County, the Bronx with Bronx County, Brooklyn with Kings County, Queens with Queens County and Staten Island with Richmond County."

On p.320, it says:

"counties. New York City is made up of five separate and complete counties ... Among other things, the counties administer the court systems."

On p.786, it says:

"Manhattan. ... The borough of Manhattan is coextensive with New York County."

On p.911, it says:

"New York County. One of the five counties of New York City, coextensive with the borough of Manhattan."

Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:15, 15 January 2017 (UTC)


 * nyc.gov, the official website of New York City, says on this page:


 * "New York City Counties The City of New York is made up of five boroughs. The State of New York is made up of counties. Each City borough is also [a] State county."


 * Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:21, 15 January 2017 (UTC)


 * From Ward, Robert C. (2006) New York State Government (2nd ed.) SUNY Press, p.517:


 * "The five counties that make up New York City, also known as boroughs, retain some vestoiges of county status – foer example, each has a locally elected district attorney. But, unlike other counties, the five in New York City do not have independent fiscal or legislative powers. The state's largest city government centralizes most county-type functions for its five boroughs."


 * Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:29, 15 January 2017 (UTC)


 * From U.S. Department of Commerce [and] U.S. Department of State (1982) State and Local Government Special Studies: 1948-1961 p.91:


 * "New York City, New York ... Counties: ... The five counties comprising New York City are substantially consolidated with the city for governmental purposes and are not considered, for Census reporting, as independent units of government."


 * Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:36, 15 January 2017 (UTC)


 * From Cudahy, Brian J. (2002) How We Got to Coney Island: The Development of Mass Transportation in Brooklyn and Kings County Fordham University Press, p.15:


 * "While the five borough of the City of New York are subdivisions of the city government, the five counties are, in essence, subdivisions of the state government. Each county has a governmental apparatus that includes such functions as a district attorney, sheriff, and courts. This apparatus is separate from whatever municipal apparatus is appropriate to each borough's governance as a subdivision of the City of New York."


 * Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:46, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're trying to prove or what it is that you misunderstand. We have a few choices of how to present this information regarding the borough and county being coextensive (none of which is news to me) in the infobox:
 * A) Borough / County = Manhattan / New York County
 * B) Borough / County = Manhattan / New York
 * C) Borough / County = Borough of Manhattan / New York County
 * D) Borough / County = Borough of Manhattan / New York

You have chosen option A; I among the editors who have chosen option B, and as such I will restore this edit. When you have consensus to support your version, I will be happy to support the change; until the resist the urge to edit war. Alansohn (talk) 03:25, 15 January 2017 (UTC)


 * In this RfC a consensus of editors and the closer of the RfC determined that "New York" without any further description generally refers to New York City, and therefore that incoming links which refer to the state should be piped to New York (state). It is thus deceptive to have the "Borough/County" line say "Manhattan / New York" without further identification that "New York" refers neither to the state or the city but to "New York County". This fulfills our obligation to always think about serving the needs of the reader, who in many cases will not be aware that there is a county by that name.  It is also the status quo ante of the article before a recent edit - therefore not "my choice", but the choice of the many editors who passed through the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:37, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Your argument is specious and -- far worse -- came belatedly after you violated 3RR. You have used the excuse of restoring your preferred version as status quo ante before and you know full well that the claim is BS. As a seven-time loser, you can face the consequences of your abuse. Alansohn (talk) 03:43, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Please check (A) the time stamps, and (B) the definition of 3RR, and I think you'll find that you're mistaken. Doesn't matter, really, your fixation on my editing and automatic reversions of it (which has been noted previously by several admins) in an attempt to goad me into violating WP:EW is extremely tedious, so I feel no more need to engage you. Instead, I've asked for WP:3O). Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:51, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Proposal

 * My opinion would be to eliminate county altogether from the infobox line across the board, as it adds nothing. Strip it down in the infobox to Borough = Manhattan, without listing county at all. This same pairing of borough / county appears in the infobox for Little Italy, Manhattan, and may also appear elsewhere. While Manhattan / New York County is one problem, the other four pairs of 1) Brooklyn / Kings County, 2) Bronx / Bronx County, 3) Queens / Queens County and 4) Staten Island / Richmond County all add nothing to an infobox about any of the places within the five coterminous boroughs / counties in New York City. Alansohn (talk) 18:48, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Since except for the limited governmental processes listed above (of which the DA and the courts are the only really important ones), counties in NYC are really only a rump version of what counties are in the rest of the state, I would agree with that. The loss of "New York County" in the infobox would be a minimal decrease in information, as long as the county's existence and function is mentioned somewhere in the article, if appropriate. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:05, 15 January 2017 (UTC)


 * A neutral pointer to this discussion has been placed on the talk page of the NYC WikiProject. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:10, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

There are about two dozen articles that have an entry for "borough / county" in the infobox for places in the five boroughs. I've removed the "county" portion of several of these, and referred back to this talk page in the edit summary. Either this will trigger further participation or it will show that no one cares about the removal. Of course it could just mean that no one cares either way. Let's see. Alansohn (talk) 04:59, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
 * OK.Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:23, 18 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't have an opinion as to either format. But there should be a consistent format for Infobox settlement for all NYC neighborhood articles. If borough-only seems to be preferred, then that's fine. epicgenius (talk) 14:36, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the infobox should only show "Borough" here and in similar articles. "County" is confusing and doesn't add anything to the infobox. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:05, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree. Infoboxes should strive for concision and adding New York County doesn't do anything. (Adding just "New York" makes the whole thing worse.)--regentspark (comment) 16:01, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Since there seems to be a consensus in favor of Alansohn's proposal, I am going to make the edit on this article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:56, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Network
which changed the description from "commercial intersection" to "commercial network" prompted me to look that term up (network, network), but I couldn't find any definition that would fit to Times Square. Also, "neighborhood" with "entertainment center" seems not an improvement (TS is listed at List of Manhattan neighborhoods) but redundant because its entertainment role is explained two sentences later anyway. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:44, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree, and I've made those changes in the lede, where they've been for a long, long time. It makes me think I should take a closer look at the changes that editor made in the rest of the article.  I let them go by assuming that they were improvement per their edit summaries. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:54, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Car Accident on May 18th, 2017
As seen in my previous edit, I believe this incident should be included as it was a major incident involving a fatality and numerous injuries, and was initially regarded as a possible terrorist attack. It gained major media coverage. Parzival1919 (talk) 19:15, 18 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I reverted the addition of the car accident which occurred today in Times Square, on the grounds that a car accident simply isn't notable enougth to be included in an article which encompasses the entire history of Times Square. Yes, one person was killed, 22 hwere injured, some of them with broken bones and people were sent to the hospital in critical condition, but this is no different from many car crashes which occur daily in the United States.  If we were to include all accidents and crashes of this type in every applicable article, we would be overwhelming those article with what, in the context of the article is trivial information.  Not trivial to the people who were injured or their families, or the families of the dead person, or for the person arrested in the incident, or to the people who were endangered but were uninjured, but trivial for Times Square, and trivial for our article about it.


 * The attempted car bombing incident was significant because it was unusual, even though no one died or was injured. But a car crash is, unfortunately, simply a commonplace of life in the United States, even when it takes place in Times Square.  Media coverage is not, of course, a good indication of notability for our purposes, especially when one considers the age-old adage governing local news coverage: "If it bleeds, it ledes."


 * I ask the editor not to restore the material again without a consensus to do so from the editors here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:21, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I won't restore it again (unless there is a newly overwhelming consensus), but I still disagree. Given that this sparked concern over terrorism it is a larger issue than a simple car crash. Parzival1919 (talk) 19:25, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, terrorism was initially considered as a possible motive -- as it should be in the absence of immediate facts -- but was quickly put aside when it became apparent that it was simply a case of drunk driving. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:28, 18 May 2017 (UTC)


 * A neutral pointer to this discussion has been placed on the talk page of the New York City Wiki Project. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:29, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with BMK. This is just another unfortunate car crash in which someone died because of drunk driving. An average of 28 people die in the US every day from such crashes. If it were terrorism, that would be noteworthy, but this is just a typical car crash. epicgenius (talk) 19:55, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, it was an suicide-murder attempt. He did it on purpose. Parzival1919 (talk) 21:30, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * You got a source for that? Sky  Warrior  21:34, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes. http://nypost.com/2017/05/18/times-square-maniac-told-cops-i-wanted-to-kill-them/ Parzival1919 (talk) 21:37, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Alright. I would like there to be some consensus first before you decide to add it, though, in case others do disagree (my position is now at a "maybe", but I'm still skeptical). Sky  Warrior  21:40, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Even if the "suicide by cop" theory turns out to be true, it's still not notable enough to include in this article. It's news and not encyclopedic content in relation to the subject here, which is Times Square.  Now, if it should come out that the perpetrator deliberately picked Times Square, that might be enough of a hook for a short mention, but I'd still want to see a consensus of editors agree to that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:52, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
 * How could he not have picked Times Square? He did it on purpose, and there are many streets in NYC he could have randomly done this in, I have a hard time imagining that he happened to do it in the densly populated and globablly recognized Times Square was a coinicidence. Still, I won't re-add it without futher consenus. Parzival1919 (talk) 12:51, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
 * So your argument is "He did it on purpose so he had to do it in a populous area"? That's not how things work. Car crashes, even intentional ones, can happen anywhere, anytime. epicgenius (talk) 17:03, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I should mention now that, while I do somewhat agree that this incident shouldn't be included, an article already exists. Sky  Warrior  20:20, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * If that article is kept, there may be a good way to link to it, but however tragic the event is, there's no indication at this point that it would make sense to include it here. For such a big subject, there's a really high bar to include this or that event that happened there. &mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  \\ 22:07, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, that article is nominated for deletion. epicgenius (talk) 00:57, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't go to call this an accident by any means. It was initially reported as an accident, possible DUI-related, but I would say that it was intentionally downplayed by officials not to quell fears within people. The driver did this with intent and later accounts do show that he admitted to doing it with the intent of "killing people". Surveillance video is notable here since it shows competence to an extent. It is going to result in changes to Times Square, likely permanent, so I'd say that this adds notability to the vehicular homicide case here. I would say 2017 Times Square vehicular attack should possibly be merged into here as per Not news -- it's more relevant here due to the changes it will result in for Times Square. ExtremeHeat11 (talk) 04:06, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Please provide citations from a reliable source which explicitly supports your contentions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:17, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Which contention are you referring to in specific? Initial reports were inaccurate in how they accounted the situation, which is not surprising since only preliminary information is available in the direct aftermath of an incident. For example, one source described it directly after the incident as "not intentional". This stance was later changed and officials started to report it as intentional, including the mayor: "It appears to be intentional in the sense that he was troubled and lashing out". Survellence video source. And the source for changes made to Times Square directly after the attack and plans for permanent changes. Most of this information is not directly relevant to Times Square -- I'm simply advocating for some of it to mentioned under the context that changes have/will be made in reguard to the attack. ExtremeHeat11 (talk) 18:34, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * None of it is directly relevant to Times Square, except for the fact that it happened to happen there. What I was saying before was that if it was a deliberate act (which seems possible, but unproven), it might be relevant to the article if he picked our Times Square specifically, in advance, to do the deed, as opposed to any other very crowded place in Manhattan (of which there are many), or that TS was simply a "target of opportunity", i.e. he simply found himself there when his demons erupted.  With so much unknown at this point, it is premature to assume that there's any reason to add the incident to the article over and above the safety barrier concern that Epicgenius already added. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:43, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * BTW, I very much oppose any such smerger as suggested. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:18, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * " except for the fact that it happened to happen there" That in itself is a pretty good reason to include it. For example, [] talks about shooting of officers that happened there earlier this year.
 * However, multiple media outlets have actually discussed this in the context of pedestrian safety and installation of infrastructure that might enhance that. (See NY Mag, NY Daily, NY Post etc.). That actually makes discussion around the attack relevant to the square.VR talk  16:09, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Lots of stuff happens on Times Square, but it's not all notable. This incident is not. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:17, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, simply saying the incident is not notable doesn't make it so. You need to give actual reasons. I gave actual reasons in my comment above, regarding pedestrian safety and installation of infrastructure at the plaza. That already makes this attack more relevant to the square than the 2010 bombing attempt.VR talk  01:25, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
 * With all return respect, you obviously haven't read the thread to which you added your comment. I've given more than sufficient reasons there. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:05, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
 * For the reasons he's/she's highlighted, I agree with Vice Regent. Parzival1919 (talk) 16:17, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Removal of image
I added the image on the right to the article, but it was removed by an editor who felt it was an "unnecessary image". The image has good resolution, is recent, and shows a senior US official and bodyguards walking through Times Square. As well, per MOS:IMAGES, the image is relevant to the article's topic, and offers variety to the article, as it is the only photo (except for the Naked Cowboy) that shows an identifiable person using Times Square. The input of others about the appropriateness of this image would be appreciated. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:07, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I have to agree that it's unnecessary. There are plenty of photos in this article already, maybe even a couple too many, and this doesn't really add anything, while giving undue weight to an individual who, unlike the Naked Cowboy, isn't associated with Times Square. While not a bad photo, it doesn't really show a good or novel view of Times Square or a notable event there. Station1 (talk) 17:05, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with the points made by User:Station1. Further I agree that some of the existing pictures could be removed, too. One of the two in the infobox should be removed. Madame Tussauds on 42nd is not strictly on Times Square. File:Times Sq Feb 2017 4.jpg is of dubious quality and doesn't add much below File:Tsq green chairs jeh.jpg. Pictures of the Paramount building and One Astor Plaza work much better in their own articles; they should all be removed. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:42, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the feedback. I resized the images yesterday to bring them inline with the standard 220px, so the page should appear a bit less crowded with photos.  Magnolia677 (talk) 01:03, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20170125164419/http://www.nyc-architecture.com/MID/MID-TimesSquare3.htm to http://www.nyc-architecture.com/MID/MID-TimesSquare3.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110504160457/http://timessquare.com/NYC__/Times_Square_History/The_Great_White_Way/ to http://timessquare.com/NYC__/Times_Square_History/The_Great_White_Way/
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/qt/v-eday.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20170125164419/http://www.nyc-architecture.com/MID/MID-TimesSquare3.htm to http://www.nyc-architecture.com/MID/MID-TimesSquare3.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20170125164419/http://www.nyc-architecture.com/MID/MID-TimesSquare3.htm to http://www.nyc-architecture.com/MID/MID-TimesSquare3.htm

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External links modified
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Navigation template
There are lots of articles in Category:Times Square. I wonder if Template:Times Square should be created as a navigation template connecting many of these pages? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 02:23, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

The article should discuss the seizure risks and other safety hazards
It appears that the sensory bombardment can cause seizures in people with photosensitive epilepsy. See Byrne v. Times Square. I can confirm that videos which include brief clips of Times Square can cause severe migraines. 138.88.18.245 (talk) 21:25, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:OR. Brief clips of Trump give me headaches too, but I don't see that in his article. EEng 16:40, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Desnudas
The article says topless women in Times Square are not against the law. If this is true, some explanation would improve the article. 2A00:23C7:E284:CF00:C88B:15FB:3354:FA (talk) 15:11, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Doesn't say not against the law, just that they're often there. New York is like that. EEng 16:40, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, it does say "Although neither of these activities [i.e. nudity nor panhandling] was illegal, opponents believed that the panhandlers' presence was detrimental to the quality of life in the area." pburka (talk) 20:54, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Unfairly gives sole credit to Giuliani for the revitalization
Actually it was begun by Giuliani's predecessor, David Dinkins, though Disney's CEO, who knew Giuliani pretty well (i.e., as we found out later, Giuliani would kill something if he couldn't get credit for it, even if he knew it was good for the city), was careful that Dinkins not get any credit.

"He [Giuliani] grabbed credit for Disney's pivotal determination to rebuild an old 42nd Street theater by announcing it at a grandiose City Hall press conference with Governor Mario Cuomo. The announcement came a month into his first year. In fact, Disney, the state and the administration of the previous mayor, David Dinkins, had signed the memo of understanding (MOU) celebrated at that press conference on December 31, 1993, the final day of David Dinkins's term. Barry Sullivan, a Dinkins deputy mayor, signed the memo and three other agreements with Disney on a metal detector at City Hall as he was leaving the building for the last time. Dinkins, who'd lost to Giuliani a month earlier in a nasty rerun of their 1989 mayoral campaign, wanted to announce the Disney deal, but the savvy Michael Eisner, CEO of the globe's master myth-making monopoly, preferred to wait. He wanted the new mayor to make the deal his own by letting him announce it. So while Disney signed the December memo, it also insisted on a confidentiality agreement."

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/barrett-rudy.html

68.196.1.236 (talk) 19:30, 11 June 2021 (UTC)captcrisis

Nicknames
@CactiStaccingCrane, why do you think this content is promotional? From what I can tell, the sources do not appear to be press releases, as you imply in your edit summary. At least three of these sources appear to be books, which do verify one of the nicknames (the Great White Way is a commonly known nickname for Broadway, so "the heart of the Great White Way" is actually a reasonable description).

To be fair, some of the other nicknames are sourced to dubious sources like Forbes, or worse, aren't sourced at all. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're promotional. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:31, 23 May 2023 (UTC)


 * See above CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 15:34, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Explanation for removing content
Epicgenius I found that this bit of text: Brightly lit by numerous digital billboards and advertisements as well as businesses offering 24/7 service, Times Square is sometimes referred to as "the Crossroads of the World"," the Center of the Universe", "the heart of the Great White Way", "the Center of the Entertainment Universe", and "the heart of the world". is both undue and promotional. It is undue because it does not have enough significance to take a whole paragraph in the lead, and it is promotional because these alternative names are not frequently used by locals themselves (did you ever say that the Times Square is "the Crossroads of the World"?), but instead used by those that aims to promote the Times Square by using easy-to-remember mnemonics. Also, look at Britannica article about the Square, and you can see no mention of these nicknames, probably for good reasons. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 15:31, 23 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't think that these nicknames should go away entirely if it is somewhat frequently used by locals, but it's just not a suitable content for the lead. Also, think of other perspectives as well: would you feel comfortable if the second paragraph of Hanoi list all of its nicknames? We do have nicknames like "the City of Peace" and such, but that would quickly be dismissed by patrollers as being promotional and undue content. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 15:37, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I see your point - I honestly didn't notice that it was a full paragraph in the lead, let alone that it was the second paragraph (I only glanced at the diff of your removal). What if we moved this down to a dedicated section, e.g. "Nicknames", or integrate it with another section like "History"? – Epicgenius (talk) 15:38, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * That's ok to me, but I think its better to get info about where is these nicknames come from. If these nicknames are formed organically from the locals, then I think it might be due enough to list the most prominent name in the last paragraph of the lead. I think integrating the content to the History section is a good idea too, but again we need to know when these terms were first made, and under what circumstances (aka is the terms made by the locals, politicians or entrepreneurs?) CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 15:40, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I know "the Crossroads of the World" and "the Heart of the Great White Way" are more commonly used by locals, but anecdotally I have never heard any New Yorker use the other three nicknames ("the Center of the Universe", "the Center of the Entertainment Universe", and "the heart of the world"). So perhaps we should remove these, although I plan to add some context to the two remaining nicknames later. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:44, 23 May 2023 (UTC)