Talk:Times Square Church

Needs attention
This page is clearly an advertisement for the Times Square Church, and therefore may be subject to deletion under Wikipedia’s policy against such advertisement articles. The use of the first-person perspective, business hours, and mailing address are clear indications that this article serves no purpose other than to advertise. I request that this article be completely rewritten and reformatted to meet Wikipedia’s quality of standards.

The introduction to the article is a direct copy-and-paste from on the Time Square’s website. The Statement of Faith is a direct copy-and-paste from. Using and citing the information from this site is acceptable, but its current format and contents are criteria for deletion. If the article is not revamped soon, it will be tagged for deletion. (Notorious4life 17:45, 1 February 2006 (UTC))

Contradiction
If the Times Square Church was founded in 1987, as the article's first sentence states, how could it have held services in another location from 1949 to 1989? Either the word "founded" needs to be changed to "built." or there's a discrepancy in the years mentioned.

Contradiction
The church known as TImes Square Church was founded much earlier then stated, The church occupies what before 1989 was known as the Mark Hellinger Theatre (70.170.57.92 16:06, 1 April 2006 (UTC))

Apparent Contradiction Resolved
The statement about the church's location was definitely confusing. I reworked it to elucidate the intended meaning, and inserted some additional data.

I have noticed that the page has undergone heavy editing since Notorious4life first raised concerns, and it now seems to be free from the problems that were initially identified. Projection70 06:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe the problems are resolved, but I would still like this article to be expanded. I mean, a church located in Times Square with 8,000 members deserves a more noteworthy article. (Notorious4life 21:22, 11 April 2006 (UTC))


 * Yes, it might be good to come up with some additional data to improve the coverage. Many of the questions people usually ask about a particular church are addressed in an official statement of faith. TSC's statement of faith was included verbatim in an earlier version, but was removed partly because of its first-person wording. Maybe if I write the basic tenets of their statement in a journalistic, third-person fashion it would make the article more satisfying for those wanting to research the church's beliefs.

Proportion of TSC Data to MHT Data
The anonymous user 224.136.120.55 (talk) has been generous in contributing good new material to expand this article. Notorious4life, maybe we should monitor how much more information accumulates in the article regarding the theatre than there is regarding the church. Note that, while the splendid old theater that houses the church definitely is amazing, it might keep the article slightly more orderly/on-topic if we encourage editors to be careful to put some material that is completely specific to the Mark Hellinger Theatre in the appropriate article for that encyclopedic data. I've done some work on that article, and I think some of the data that 224.136.120.55 put here could fit in well over there. If editors take care to keep things on the right pages, it might ensure that the Mark Hellinger Theatre article and the Times Square Church article will remain as two distinct articles rather than as a merged mess of theater/church info.

Even though it's a little weird that much more of the article is now about the theater than about the church that owns it, I can see two ways that this can eventually work itself out. One is that more info on the church will gradually accumulate in the article, such that the article will ultimately feature more information about its actual subject than about the theater. The other, of course, is that some of the info that 224.136.120.55 added could be moved to Mark Hellinger Theatre. Maybe a combination of the two would be reasonable. Down the road, when there is more substantial mix of info, the theater data would look good if formatted into a subheading, but since the part about the theater is currently so much bigger than the part about of the church, I decided not to do it yet, since it would look strange at this point. What do you think? Projection70 00:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

9/11
David Wilkerson, the man who started this church, is claiming that he and his congregation made 2000 sandwiches on September 10, 2001, after he claimed to have have received a warning from God that something awful was about to happen in NYC. Does anyone have any proof that this happened? This story will probably make its way to Wiki within the next little while as Mr. Wilkerson is making some more claims about an impending disaster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.49.35.148 (talk) 14:47, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Simply not true
''...the area was known as a center of X-rated films, strip clubs, prostitution, and drug addiction. Pastor Wilkerson opened the church in response to what he described as "the physically destitute and spiritually dead people" he saw among the pimps, runaways and crack dealers who populated the area''. Having lived in the vicinity of 51st and Broadway for several years back in the 60s and 70s, I can assert that this statement is simply not true for that area. It was true of West 42nd Street, and "Hell's Kitchen", West of 8th Avenue.

Many people are sorry that the Nederlander owners sold the theatre when they did, a time when they were hurting financially, and there were many empty houses. I bet they wish they could retrieve it, now that theatres are healthy and over-booked. Meanwhile, church leaders should look to expand into more appropriate buildings, not eye our precious theatres. A pity that the article cannot be tempered. JohnClarknew (talk) 00:28, 11 April 2011 (UTC)


 * If the facts are wrong why not change it yourself? Just avoid personal opinion and use reliable refs. Cheers, Markhh (talk) 03:26, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


 * But do not change anything in the article that is supported by a citation froma reliable source, or that us a direct quote. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:49, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Of course, I think Mr. Clark has misunderstood the quote. Pastor Wilkerson is almost certainly referring to the Times Square area in general, not the specific street that the Mark Hellinger Theatre is located on. Perhaps this is due to the way the WP article is phrased? I'll have to glance at it again. Best, Markhh (talk) 06:19, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


 * The name of the church and of this article, Times Square Church, is a fairly big clue to the fact that it was established to serve the denizens of that neighborhood, as it existed at that time, as described by the pastor in our article, as cited to current church literature. Then were one to read the article, one would discover that after being established in 1987, the first two locations of said church were, in fact, in the Times Square area:  "The Times Square Church briefly held its services in The Town Hall on 43rd Street in Manhattan and then in the Nederlander Theatre on 41st Street."  They moved a short walk to the current location in 1989, retaining the name and titular purlieu.


 * I daresay there's not a block in NYC where some building's use hasn't been objected to by a fair amount of the locals (if not tourists) at some point, including the porn and Disney iterations of the neighborhood. That's an interesting aspect which — when it rises to a notable and reliably sourced level — we might look at how to address somehow at Wikipedia, but we still need to observe WP:Undue weight in articles about particular buildings — and to be fair, this very brief article is about the church, as in congregation, not as in chapel, even as the location is relevant and the unusual history of the building is notable enough to be covered here.  The Mark Hellinger Theatre has its own article — which alleges that Nederlander refused to sell the building to Cameron Mackintosh prior to his deal with the church — if you're interested in the theater aspect, you might be interested to research that unreferenced assertion, and expand that article including the context you note.


 * After all, were the church to find a new location, surely some would lament both its departure and others the alteration of the next location. (Though I'll bet there's some less-beloved structure amidst some sex shops somewhere where they'd be welcome.)  Abrazame (talk) 07:17, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Talk pages shouldn't veer into pure discussion that's not directly related to editing the article. But I'll break the rule here this once to add the important fact that the Hellinger has been well-served by the Church which has maintained it splendidly, keeping its landmarked interior not only intact but in beautiful condition while providing services to the neighborhood. Many great NY theaters have disappeared altogether while this one has been preserved and may be visited by anyone who would like to see it. Should the church ever decide to relocate, conversion back to theatrical use would be completely viable. That's more than one can say for the Morosco, the Lunt-Fontanne and others. Cheers,Markhh (talk) 02:56, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course, it was the senseless destruction of the Morosco, the Lunt and the (old) Helen Hayes (as well as that little theatre next to the Morosco where Mummenschanz played for years) in order to build a hotel with one half-assed theatre that started Broadway theatres being landmarked in the first place. Unfortunately, like the destruction of Penn Station, it took such an act to mobilize the community to pressure the city to preserve things of value. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:02, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It may be preserved most beautifully, but are we likely to see shows again at the Mark Hellinger? Shows like these that appeared in its glorious past, from My Fair Lady to Macbeth to Rodney Dangerfield?  JohnClarknew (talk) 07:35, 18 April 2011 (UTC)