Talk:Timothy Treadwell/Archive 2

article needs cleanup
There's too summarizing of POV material from the documentary film. It seems unfair to highlight his drug abuse years as the introduction to who he was. Also no mention about how long he spent with bears. article at the moment sounds like he was a newcomer to bears. That poaching was not a major issue is disputed by Treadwell's friends. (there is a followup film to the documentary where Herzog talks to Treadwell's friends about what they thought about the documentary where they emphasize this and also that they thought the film made Treadwell seem more unbalanced than he really was)

I'll try to address some of these issues later on. - Bwithh 16:55, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

my changes

 * at the top:
 * added Amie Huguenard's age (don't know if this is the proper way though)
 * added: "At the end of his thirteenth year..."
 * in biography:
 * changed the wording on his drug addiction to "recovering from an earlier drug addiction", it makes it more subtle
 * added: "which he videotaped and photographed the last five years of his life"
 * in death:
 * added info on his thoughts about saving the bears and his promises about never hurting them
 * because it is actually a video tape I changed "audio tape" to "audio recording"
 * added information about the Leonardo DiCaprio film

The Death part can be reworded. The "Troopers" part is messy. - Halli —The preceding comment was added by 69.22.244.250 (talk • contribs) 04:56, 5 February 2006.

Rewrite/McCandless - 2/21/06
I've attempted to clean up this article a bit to make the language and layout more encyclopeadic. I removed a lot of the POV material and added a new section, entitled "Legacy," to cover how he is viewed now after his death. I'm no expert on Treadwell, so I went off of what news articles I could find to try and clean this up. Comments and edits to fix errors and help further this along are encouraged. --Lendorien 08:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Further edits are needed I think. Even with my cleanup, there was too much POV. Encyclopeadias are supposed to be as factual as possible. I think more research is needed, including looking at news reports (which I tried to do a little of) and other accounts outside of Grizzly Man, which isn't a very objective documentary from what I've read. --Lendorien 09:36, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Is Christopher McCandless a proper See also for this article? I don't see any relevance. --Lendorien 09:36, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I second the removal of the Christopher McCandless reference. It isn't relevant, and it's insulting to McCandless. Haizum 02:56, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The inclusion to his article seems most likely placed in due to the fact that both died in the wilderness and that is not even a close-enough knit reason to justify that mention of See also in this article, since Treadwell and his girlfriend's death is well documented and the cause is known while McCandless' death according to the article is left as a mystery. If someone was using it as a venue to jump into a list of "Deaths in the wilderness" it might have held some morbid relevance, otherwise it is just rubbish and should be removed since it has no real standing connection to anything in the Treadwell article. 65.145.213.175 04:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * There are indeed parallels between McCandless and Treadwell. However, unless this article is going to have the page count of a novel, the subject of McCandless goes beyond its scope.  Of Heros and Myths 15:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Delist as cleanup article?
I think most of the significant cleanup issues for this article are cleaned up. I propose delisting it as a cleanup candidate. I'll wait a week for responces, then delist it if there are no objections. --Lendorien 21:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks good and the issue of the standing cleanup is spotty at best, unless you count the need to watch over the article for people making moronic edits to it due to the airing of the documentary on Discovery currently. Once that surge of attention dies down it should be okay. 65.145.213.175 04:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Cleanup tag removed. Cheers! --Lendorien 02:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Alaska + last name
I've read in several places that while Katmai was actually Treadwell's favorite, it was not the only park he visited. Do you think that should be included in his bio? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hli (talk • contribs) 15:43, 5 February 2006


 * Treadwell spent the vast majority of his time in Alaska camping in Katmai (Hallo Bay and Kaflia Bay). He also spent some time in the town of Kodiak, AK on Kodiak Island.  While he briefly visited other Parks in Alaska, especially during his earlier trips, Tim was rarely seen outside of Katmai.  KNP is unique in that the coastal brown bears there are habituated to humans because of all the tourists who visit the park.  There are many businesses licensed to guide visitors in Katmai, so the bears there are very familiar with people which makes the animals much easier to film.  Tim was well aware of this fact.  Of Heros and Myths 13:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Was "Treadwell" his real last name? I remember hearing somewhere that he changed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.193.126.138 (talk • contribs) 11:00, 6 February 2006


 * He did change it, his real last name is Dexter, but in the movie I think his father said the Treadwell name was in the family. Perhaps we could say "Treadwell (born Dexter)" or something, whichever way is best... --Hli 22:17, 6 February 2006

Article self-contradiction
The article contradicts itself. In one place it says:

"Whether the tape was actually destroyed or not is unclear."

Later it says:

"The audio recording, along with the other tapes recovered, are all intact"

Which is it?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.67.158.73 (talk • contribs) 18:01, 6 February 2006


 * The latter. The interview with Treadwell's friends that aired on Discover revealed that the tapes are still intact. --Mr. Vernon 04:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It might be both. In the interview with Treadwell's friend (who apparently owns the tape). The director advised her to destroy the tape. We don't know if she really did that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.143.106.185 (talk • contribs) 05:06, 13 July 2006


 * Jewel Palovak owns or owned the tape. Whether she destroyed it or not is in question.  One thing is clear . . . Palovak has never publicly stated she made copies of the tape or released it to anyone for publication.  Of Heros and Myths 13:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Bear vs. bears vs. grizzly bear
From what I have read, no-one can be certain if the couple was eaten by one, two or three bears. It is not even clear if more than one bear was responsible for the attack. All they know is that the pilot saw one bear standing over the couple's remains; the same bear that was later shot by park rangers, inside which they found human remains. The younger bear (3yr - which was also shot) was eaten by other bears before authorities got a chance to perform a necropsy. To my knowledge (bear with me...) authorities did not investigate other bears in the area, so no-one knows just how many bears "were involved".

Furthermore, these bears are not grizzly bears, but coastal bears. The word "bear" is therefore, imho, more suitable.

But, to say the couple was eaten by "a bear", let alone "a grizzly bear", is solely based on speculation. Maybe we should say "attacked and partially eaten by bears", suggesting that there might have been more than one bear, and in the worst case scenario we are talking about bears in general, where I am not sure people will necessarily think of a herd of bears, but instead just think of a generic brown bear. Does that make sense? Hli 13:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * this needs to be clarified and made consisttent throughout the article. The first paragraph says he "lived among the Coastal Grizzly bears," and the reference to grizzlies is repeated at least six times.  But then the article says "Despite the organization's name, Treadwell did not associate with grizzly bears, a term properly applied only to brown bears that live farther inland."  Either we call them grizzlies or we don't, but once the call is made it has to be consistent. Anson2995 02:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Even more suitable is simply calling them "brown bears" which includes both inland and coastal brown bears. Of Heros and Myths 14:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Added Nickname section.
I added a reference to his popular nickname among Alaskan. I would like to see more added on the impression his life and death had on people who live in the state. I don't know how to submit this wikipedia without sounding like a jerk, but from what I understand, he did more damage to bears (the thing he proclaimed to love) and their environment than all the poachers and developers ever could. What is really disturbing is that he had to take someone else with him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thadvde (talk • contribs) 16:51, 8 February 2006


 * I see your point. The problem is that most of the additions to the article regarding the more negative aspects of his "work" have sounded too personal and in dire need of citation (things like "wanker" are not helping). If we are trying to have this article reflect on both the positive and negative impacts of his, well, existence, then we should make sure we are adding a positive fact for every negative. I'm not defending him in any way, but at the same time I see no reason to make him look bad, either.


 * The article is struggling to be factual; quotes on him being a kind genius or an evil wanker would help everyone.


 * What if he were killed by the hunters and park rangers he was angry with? I believe they were either directly or indirectly responsible for both deaths. I would like to see the evidence that suggests he was killed by bear(s).Eddietoran 20:52, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * And yes, she should not have been there, let alone die for his dying interest in the grizzlies. But he shouldn't have died, either. - Hli 05:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You see my point?? The only aspects to his work were negative, that's it. He was an idiot and he died like one, the man won a Darwin award. The only positive thing to say about him is "he's dead", to say nothing of the negative way he died at the same time would still give him to much credit as a human being. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.229.143.91 (talk • contribs) 17:11, 12 February 2006


 * Removed this section. The "supporting" external link reference was totally irrelevant. Bwithh 00:57, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter whether the "aspects of his work" were negative or positive. They are what they are because facts are facts.  Of Heros and Myths 14:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Death
Having seen the documentary, I find the description of Treadwell's death odd. While the tape is not played, its contents are made clear and there is an interview with the coroner. This evidence shows that Treadwell was attacked by a bear which grabbed his head from behind (claw marks). His girlfriend is heard hitting the bear with a frying pan as Treadwell tells her to run.

The pilot who came to collect the couple found part of Treadwell's head and part of his backbone. The rest of him was found, along with his girlfriend, inside the stomach of a bear shot at the scene as it attacked the party sent to recover the remains.

As it stands, this article implies there is some lack of clarity on the matter. But remember bears are wild animals and this would not be out of character. Treadwell himself documented how, when food was scarce, the bears ate their own young. They'd have no qualms about eating Treadwell, who had chosen to camp where the bears went to feed and took no precautions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephennewton (talk • contribs) 09:30, 14 February 2006


 * But the documentary also suggested that it was a particular bear who was known to be likely to be aggressive. there was even a segment where Timothy points out the particular bear as one likely to be agressive and one he would not approach. They also found a hand or arm with Timothy's wristwatch. Bwithh 18:22, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The pilot who discovered Tim and Amie's remains is Willie Fulton who works for Andrews Airways in Kodiak, AK. The brown bear that consumed Treadwell was a boar, not a sow as erronously reported in this article.  During the early 90's a biologist named Sterling Miller, now retired, did a study of brown bears in Katmai.  He and his team tagged (with tattoos in the ear) many bears.  The boar in question was part of that study and given the number 141.  He was 28 years old at the time of his death.  How much of a problem he had been over the years is questionable since there are no reports of him being aggressive other than Willie Fulton's account . . . and Willie may have mistaken him for another bear.    Of Heros and Myths 14:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Who is Jewel Palovak?
There is a link but there is no article for (her?). Is she the person that was warned not to listen to the tape? Was she a friend or relative of Treadwell? In short, what does she have to do with this? -Kasreyn 21:08, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

From what I remember of the film, she was a former girlfriend and later she worked with timothy on the grizzly people organization, which she still runs or something. her house was in the area where timothy visited and he would start his expeditions there. Bwithh 22:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Jewel apparently runs Grizzly People and helped found it, and was his girlfriend for 3 years. However, the woman whose house he visited was NOT Jewel Palovak's house but another woman, apparently a platonic friend, who lived near the park in Alaska where he would leave his camping equipment during the winter when he was away from the park. I just finished watching the documentary but I cannot remember her name. --CokeBear 04:07, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Her name is Kathleen Parker. She is a retired Los Angeles police officer who now lives in Alaska.  Parker befriended Treadwell, and it's true she let him store gear in her basement during the winter.  Jewel Palovak lives in Malibu Beach, not in Alaska.  Of Heros and Myths 14:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Obsessive Compulisive Disorder / Schizophrenia?
Is there any information out there that would prove / disprove that he was suffering a mental illness recognized by the DSM? His speech patterns certainly resemble some types of OCD, and coupled with his general behavior and skewed perception of reality could possibly even indicate a residual classification of schizophrenia. I just finished watching "Grizzly Man" and I think he had some psychological issues that go beyond being an eccentric. He wasn't a biologist, an animal behaviorist, or really anything above an "enthusiast". His films not only rarely educate, but reveal a deluded impression he had on what he was doing. Whether or not his foundation did any good in setting aside habitats is another matter: his active role of living with the bears clearly demonstrated that he did not have a firm grasp on reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.249.222 (talk • contribs) 14:56, 1 March 2006


 * Wikipedia's place is not to prove or disprove his sanity. The best we can do is provide and present the arguments of credible sources that investigate the question. Until we have said sources, it's not really the place of Wikipedia to have the opinions of its users in the article. --Lendorien 02:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * However, if there are records or documentation that indicate he was at some point diagnosed or recommended for observation because of concerns of mental conditions, or basically any verifible info in that regard, this is the perfect place to put it. The man obviously demonstrated behavior that makes more than one or two people wonder if he suffered from mental illness; having a short section in this article addressing that question with reputable sources, be it 'yes', 'no', or 'unclear', would be entirely appropriate.GarageBay9 21:15, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That's more or less what I was saying. It is appropriate for here, but only if we have sources that ponder that question. Individual wikipedians making that assertaion is not appropriate in the article however. See the policies on Original_research. Sources are key in an encyclopaedic article. --Lendorien 19:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree on one point: "unclear" viewpoints should only be included if there are at least some definite "yes" or "no" sources.  After all, if the only sources quoted are "unclear", then the question arises as to why wikipedia would even be reporting on the matter!  Likewise, if the only sources are "unclear", then it would appear very likely that the entire thing is nothing but a character attack on Treadwell, which it would be wrong and disingenuous of us to give credence to.  Please find sources who make clear and definitive statements if you want to include the insanity allegations.  Thanks.  -Kasreyn 05:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * As a medical professional, from watching his own documentary film evidence, I must make the following conclusions:
 * Tim Treadwell:
 * was clearly paranoid.
 * suffered delusions of grandeur
 * had an addictive personality despite sobriety
 * probably needed psychiatric care and medication
 * possibly had OCD Pabobfin 17:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That may be so, and I don't say I disagree, but you'll want to review Wikipedia's policies on Original_research. We'd need verifiable published sources before we can site it in the article. --Lendorien 19:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * In addition, I should point out that Wikipedia has no way to verify the credentials of its editors. I'm not calling you a liar, but there's no way we can trust that you actually are a medical professional, so arguments from authority can't be considered.  -Kasreyn 05:42, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * True that you cannot verify that I am anything but a Wiki contributor. Pabobfin 08:31, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * What the hell is a medical professional, what are you a janitor at the hospital or something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.123.220.247 (talk • contribs) 11 June 2006


 * Please refer to WP:CIVIL. Remember to keep a cool head and comment on the comment, not the person.  Kasreyn 17:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I am not a “medial professional”, but I know a little bit about schizophrenia, and I don’t think Treadwell’s behavior was anywhere close to the types of behaviors and speech Schizophrenics exhibit.


 * This article gives some evidence that Treadwell may have been bipolar.
 * http://www.dailyinterlake.com/articles/2005/04/01/news/news01.txt
 * This review says he was actually diagnosed with bipolar disorder.
 * http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2005-08-25/film/film.html


 * Though we can’t say with certainty that Treadwell was bipolar, we should at least say in the main article that it is likely that he was.
 * Xargon666x6 15 November 2006


 * Jewel Palovak all but confirmed that Tim was bipolar in Herzog's documentary when she mentioned Treadwell quit taking his precription medication. She said Tim needed/wanted his highs and lows.  Roland Dixon, a member of the Grizzly People board of directors and most likely Tim's largest benefactor, became quite concerned about Treadwell's depression and threatened to cut off his funding if he didn't get help.  He had seen Tim's videos.  Dixon never followed up on his threat.  Of Heros and Myths 14:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Anyone who watches Treadwell's movies can decide for himself. Are most of us so paranoid or delusional they need the latest 'medical' label that helps to sell pills? 62.216.203.48 18:19, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. Without a solid reference that he was sufferign a mental disorder this thread should be shut down as utterly off topic, SqueakBox 18:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That Treadwell went to a doctor for his depression and at one time took prescription medication for that condition was confirmed by the very person who knew him best, that being Jewel Palovak who lived with him at the time. That's not speculation -- it's a matter of record from the movie.  Given the numerous other accounts of his mood swings by the people who knew him well, it should be obvious that Tim, at the very least, suffered from depression and was probably bi-polar.  His mood swings and depression were also confirmed by two books on Treadwell that I mentioned earlier (Nick Jans and Mike Lapinski).


 * Simply put, Treadwell suffered a mental disorder. That doesn't mean he was a certifiable nutcase that needed to be institutionalized, but it does mean his preception of reality was often skewed to fit his mood.  It should also be noted that there are strong indications Tim was somewhat narcissistic.  His overwhelming need to be a heroic protector of bears is just one of the many signs of that condition.  Some of his antics fit the bill for narcissism, too.  And that information comes from a professional.


 * There are countless newpaper articles and online articles about Treadwell. There is a documentary Treadwell made for the Discovery Channel.  There is Herzog's "Grizzly Man".  There are two books containing numerous accounts from people who knew Treadwell.  There are private letters Tim sent to friends.  And then there is the 1 inch thick file the National Park Service in Katmai kept on Treadwell that contains handwritten letters, formal letters, records, dates, and general information concerning Treadwell.  Very few people have seen that file.  I have, and I can assure you it contains some very interesting -- if not damning -- information on one Timothy Treadwell.  So let's quit pretending there isn't enough information to tell an accurate story about this man.  There is, but no one source contains everything.  Only if you're willing to read over 500 pages of information can you get the whole picture.  Thus, anyone who wants to contribute to this article without knowing all the facts isn't doing the article justice.Of Heros and Myths 04:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * We still need solid references to put anything into the article as we are an encyclopedia' so we report what has been said that is notable but we cannot create the original research content ourselves even if we think we know it was true though in this case he obviously had the skills to live out in the Alaskan wilderness for 6 seasons and was clearly very focussed into what he was doing; as Herzog pretty much said, he made something of his life. Thanks, SqueakBox 05:24, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, if you consider Herzog the ultimate authority on Timothy Treadwell -- which he is not -- then a solid reference that Treadwell suffered from depression, had mood swings, and took prescription medication comes directly from his movie. As a matter of record the transcript of "Grizzly Man" clearly quotes Jewel Palovak as saying this.  Again, she lived with the guy for years.  And this wasn't the only place she made comments to that effect.  Meanwhile there is not a single person who has ever verified that Treadwell almost died of a drug overdose (highly unlikely) or that he even took drugs.  This tale comes solely from Tim's book.  In fact, in Herzog's movie, Tim talks about drinking too much.  He spoke not a word about drugs.  And no one, not even Jewel Palovak has ever confirmed Tim was an alcoholic.  Myths are made from tall tales, and Tim created his own myth.


 * For example, Treadwell produced a publicity flyer with a picture showing a so-called "poacher" stalking one of his bears. He used it to raise money from the Malibu Beach crowd for his summer trips to Katmai.  The "poacher" turned out to be a fellow named Joe Allen who was a tour guide in Katmai.  When Joe Allen and his boss, Tom Walters who owned the guide service, threatened to sue Tim's sponser, Patagonia, for defamation of character, they pulled the flyer and made Tim apologize.  Tim then admitted to Tom Walters that there were no poachers in Katmai . . . that he made the whole tale up.  The point is Treadwell was always fabricating some tale to enhance his personna.


 * Tim accomplished very little with his life other than to gain some celebrity and become a complete joke to the entire community of wildlife biologists who study brown bears. I have yet to read a single quote by any wildlife professional who would dare endorse anything he did, and that includes his so-called presentations to school children which were largely personal demonstrations on harassing wildlife peppered with inaccuracies about bears.


 * The biggest problem here is everyone thinks Werner Herzog is the final definitive source for everything "Treadwell". All most people know of Treadwell comes strictly from "Grizzly Man", and that's likened to nothing more than a few credit hours toward a degree.  There's a heck of lot more information out there than most people realize.  If this article is to inform the public, I suggest we stop perpetuating the myth and stick to the recorded facts.  The real story of Timothy Treadwell has already been told in books, letters, newspaper and magazine articles, online publications, 3 documentaries, and a National Park Service file almost unheard of by the general public.


 * And it is a true fact that in "Grizzly Man" Jewel Palovak confirmed that Treadwell took medication for depression as prescribed by a doctor, and that he suffered from "highs and lows". That means unless Timothy Treadwell's best friend and ex-lover who lived and worked with him for years is lying, he was diagnosed by a medical professional as having a mental disorder.


 * Here is Jewel Palovak's actual quote from the [transcript of "Grizzly Man"] regarding Tim's depression:


 * One time he went to a doctor. They wanted to put him on some kind of an antidepressant or something to keep his mood, 'cause his moods were so up and down.  And he started taking it for a while, and then he stopped.  He said, "I had to stop."


 * I said, "Why?"


 * He said, "Because I can't stop. I can't have the middle grounds. I have to have the highs and the lows.  It's a part of my life, it's a part of my personality."


 * Tim's odd behavior might also be of interest. Chris Day, who is also a bear tour guide in Katmai, and who knew and liked Treadwell, once observed him strolling among the bears out on the "Big Green" in Hallo Bay wearing a full black tuxedo with tails and a bow tie.  There are no formal affairs in the middle of Nowhere, Alaska.  And Chris wasn't the only one who observed this behavior.


 * Yet another story has Tim holding a silver colored photographic light reflector in each hand as he tripped the light fantastic (doing a fan dance) in the grass on the Big Green.


 * And then there are the numerous accounts of Tim running away from people on all fours while huffing like a bear. This isn't exactly normal behavior for a forty-something year old man.  Of Heros and Myths 14:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I remember watching "Grizzly Man" with my dad. (Who was often pondering about the sanity of Timothy, but I'm not going to use that as credible evidence :P) I saw one of the vidoes he made, and I really questioned whether he knew what he was doing. The video consisted of him CONSTANTLY swearing and bitching (Sorry, that's the only word I can think of to describe it) about the park rangers and how he "was just trying to save the bears". Ironically, he didn't once say exactly how he was trying to save the bears. But, then again, it may just be my cruddy memory. Mumbles (talk) 02:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Availability of tape of Timothy's last few mins on Internet?
Have temporarily removed the assertion that the tape is available on the Internet - it sounds like an urban myth, I can't substantiate it, and it's possibly libellous. Barnabypage 18:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Good call. There are a number of faked versions floating around on the net.  best to just leave that out. LisaPollison172.140.145.18 19:37, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * This is to clarify that the tape you're referring to is the one containing Timothy's last few minutes, and not the Grizzly Man video. --Amit 02:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Exactly. Barnabypage 14:04, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I could have sworn i heard the tape played on the radio or TV shortly after his death. can someone confirm this? 68.5.190.102 18:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The actual audio recording is owned by Jewel Palovak. She has never released the tape.Of Heros and Myths 23:48, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no proof the tape ever existed, was real, or was destroyed. The fact is, whatever was (or is) on that tape has never been released to the public. Like mentioned before, Jewel Palovak is the only living person who owns (or owned) the tape and apparently has refused to release it or possibly destroyed it. She was nothing more than a friend, also an ex-girlfriend, yet Treadwell died with another woman who was claimed to have been his girlfriend or just another close friend.


 * There's a ton of controversy about the events prior to Jewel Palovak receiving the tape, who knows if Werner Herzog and/or his staff may have faked, listened (outside of the film where Herzog is listening to the tape) or duplicated the tape since they had access to it. Herzog was filmed listening to the audio of the tape with a headset, who knows if it wasn't just a lie to get more attention for this film, and it makes no sense why he would travel so far filming Palovak receive a wristwatch found on a dead friend's corpse (which she physically touches and wears) then convince her never to listen to the tape and to destroy it.


 * What is clear is Timothy Treadwell's death may have been recorded, but it lacks too much logic. Someone related to Treadwell would want a confirmation of how he died despite his dangerous lifestyle. There's also question about the length of the film/audio, and how a professional who's life was generallly in danger since day 1 would ever leave the lens cap on when the record button is pressed.


 * There's just too many questions that can't seem to be answered, from a completely realistic standpoint he was far too experienced to not record the entirety of his own death, he would either record the entire scene or not record at all.


 * With his experience around wildlife and his passion for animals, he was aware that his own death could have better served to research the grizzly bears. The fact he's in the middle of nowhere and able to film countless hours of documentary, it just makes no sense that anything Timothy Treadwell recorded from the first second up until the time he's completely run out of film shouldn't be released.


 * There was also no need to kill the grizzly bears they assumed killed Treadwell and Amie Huguenard, but even another question would be "What if Amie Huguenard's family wanted to hear the audio from the tape?"


 * This just sounds like a publicity stunt for the movie.


 * Fuker (talk) 11:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Added reference to AP article
Thought this article by AP provided sound and factual account of Treadwell. Cephas

—The preceding comment was added by 194.80.240.66 (talk • contribs) 09:04, 4 April 2006.


 * Any second source for that article? It looks a lot more like a blog rant than a real news agency article... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.119.130.132 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 10 April 2006


 * No way is it AP - I think it's just citing the existence of an AP story as the starting point for a rant. I've commented it out. Barnabypage 13:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Bio info

 * I'm not sure where he was born but, Tim Dexter did live in New York. I know in 1975 he went to Connetquout High School in Bohemia, New York were he graduated.--163.192.21.44 01:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)L heinlein 8/14/2006

Anon Edits
A recent edit by 60.48.119.2 claims that remains were found in bear manure, including "his missing genitals." I suspect that this is simply vandalism, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. If someone can post a cite to back up the claim, we'll keep it. Otherwise it's gotta go. Anson2995 15:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The tale is ridiculous. Nuke it.Of Heros and Myths 14:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Re-showing of "Grizzly Man" in the UK, 2006-12-17
There will probably be an upsurge of interest in / activity on this page in the near future - Discovery channel in the UK is (re- ?)showing the "Grizzly Man" documentary at 10pm on the date cited. Since this will (I think) clash with "HogsFather" premiering, it's going to lose some audience, but I'm sure there'll be some comments. From the trailers, "Treadwell" sounds an interesting character, and decidedly odd. I'm going to set the program to tape so I can consider it carefully. A Karley 11:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Real?
I heard that timothy treadwell wasn't even real...can anyone verify or care to refute this?


 * Treadwell was real alright . . . you just have to seperate the man from the myth. Of Heros and Myths 13:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

More Than Just Cleanup
This article needs much more than just a "clean up" -- it needs to be rewritten by someone who knows the subject. Herzog's documentary leaves much to be desired when it comes to telling the whole story of Timothy Treadwell. There is a wealth of information out there regarding Treadwell if you know where to look. In addition to the seemingly countless articles about Tim all over the Internet, there have also been two books written about Treadwell (by Nick Jans and Mike Lapinski) which go into detail dispelling the myth surrounding the man. Then, there is Treadwell's National Park Service (NPS) file in which actual letters from Treadwell himself contradict many common misconceptions about his time in Katmai. Given that none of these publications were mentioned here, and given that this article contains so many inaccuracies, more insight into the matter is sorely needed before it can be finalized.

Here's a case in point. . . you cannot talk about Treadwell protecting bears without mentioning Tim's relationship with Tom Walters and Joe Allen and with his corporate sponsor, Patagonia, Inc. Also, note that the 5 bears “poached” after Treadwell’s death were killed in the Preserve, not in the Park. The Preserve is adjacent to the Park and is a designated hunting area accessible by 4-wheel vehicles, but not from where Treadwell camped some 50 miles away.

Another case in point. . . Treadwell did not spend most of his time in the so-called "Grizzly Maze" near Kaflia Bay. The vast majority of the time Tim was in Katmai, he camped near the coast in Hallo Bay on what is known locally as the "Big Green" because of all the bear grass growing there. Neither area is anywhere near the Preserve.

In other words, a little knowledge of documented facts, a modest gander at a map of Katmai, Tim’s own words, and a healthy dose of common sense easy dispel any notion that Treadwell was protecting all 2,000 bears spread out over a national park consisting of some 6,000 square miles. That Treadwell admitted to Tom Walters there were no poachers seems to be a little-known and seldom-mentioned fact.

Then, there’s Roland Dixon and Jewel Palovak (and many others) who provided meaningful insight into Tim’s mental health. You cannot discuss this subject without their input.

Most of what is known about Tim’s early life didn’t just come from his book. It comes from his parents, old girlfriends, friends, college teammates and coach, co-workers, and many others. None of these accounts are in Tim’s book. In fact, many of these accounts were deliberately left out of his book. And such is the case with Herzog’s documentary.

With any discussion of the cause of Tim and Amie’s deaths, the National Park Service file on Treadwell, particularly Tim’s letter about electric bear fences, must be included. Then, there’s Tim’s final letter to Roland Dixon. Together, they leave us with the understanding that this tragedy was preventable.

Finally, to point out just one gross inaccuracy in this article, Tim indeed used "protection" during his early years in Katmai -- both bear spray and an electric fence. As a matter of record, Tim wrote to the NPS asking for help in putting up a fence. (Treadwell was trying to get the NPS off his back for not practicing proper bear safety.) This letter, written around 2001 or so, is in his NPS file. Then, in his final letter to Roland Dixon written shortly before his death, he explains why he once again quit using the fence.

I suggest this article needs a whole lot more work. . . from scratch. -- Of Heros and Myths 06:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You seem to know what you're talking about. I encourage you to take the initiative and go ahead and rewrite and revise. I don't think anyone will mind... although this article is intended as a summary type of thing, not a book biography. You should only cover the main points.--Lendorien 21:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Stranger Bears
In the film it is mentioned that the bears that Treadwell had become accostumed to in the Grizzly Maze had already gone on to hibernating grounds, and bears from the north - ones Treadwell was not accostumed to - had moved south into the Maze on their own way to hibernating grounds. As Treadwell was in the field longer than he had ever spent in the thirteen years he went there, and 'his' bears had all left the area, I think it's an important point to make - and the film points this out as well - that bear 141 was a stranger to Treadwell during a time of year that Treadwell had never previously spent in the Maze. This may have had some consequence on the attack. Herzog seems to think so. Worth adding to article? --Bentonia School 15:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It cannot be proven which bear killed Treadwell or his girlfriend. It is a known fact that Bear 141 consumed parts of one or both of them.  And it's very likely Treadwell knew Bear 141.  This chimerical theory that a bear from the interior unknown to Treadwell was his killer is nothing more than wishful thinking by those who want to believe the nonsense that Treadwell had some kind of special relationship with his bears.  The only realtionship he had with them was that he habituated those bears to humans.  That's exactly why other humans could get just as close as Treadwell got to them.


 * It's also worthy of mention that one of the two bears killed by authorities was Treadwell's "friend" Baby Letterman, a bear well-known to Tim, very habituated to humans, and not at all an ursine stranger from the interior. Of Heros and Myths 04:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Deadliness of Modern Liberal Romanticism
The poor fellow was a literal victim of the liberal-romanticist ideology, the "noble savagery" of "uninhibited nature". Democratic romanticism and its communistic valorization of "free, a-moral nature" is cleary allied to psychological abnormality and stunted moral growth. The poor fellow was "personifying" and "humanizing" creatures who were separated from human instincts and perceptions by a wide and unbridgeable gulf, and accordingly paid the bloody price for his fallacious primitivist romanticism...


 * Well that is an opinion, and one I think has a grain of truth in it but is for the most part completely wrong; plenty of nature wildlife experts such as Nigel Marven also humanise wild animals but nott aking the wreckless risks that treadwell took. Also Steve Irwin took plentty of precautions but still got killed; best to tread very carefully around bears and it was that, not his romantic feelings, that killed him; romantic feelings dont automattically equal wrecklessness, SqueakBox 22:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh, it doesn't have anything to do with liberal-romanticist ideologies. Now does it have to do with conservative-survivalist back-to-the-land hunt-for-food-and-live-in-harmony-with-nature ideologies. Treadwell was just an unbalanced man who stomped around the woods shouting into a video camera. "LOOK! THERE'S MR. CHOCOLATE! HI MR. CHOCOLATE!!!" Is there any surprise at all that he got himself killed? More the pity that he had to take an innocent woman with him to his doom. 130.111.63.50 21:00, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly my thoughts, this man was living in the Hundred Acre Wood with Mr. Fox, Mr. Bear, and Mr. Inner Demon - mentioned several times in the movie. I thought it would be fun to mock him, but after i saw the movie, i realized the man was so deranged that you just felt sorry for him 68.5.190.102 19:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What killed Timothy Treadwell was a combination of his willful disregard of safety practices around brown bears -- a violation of wildlife ethics -- and his mindless moral values. Treadwell quit using an electric fence while camping and refused to carry bear spray.  The fence would have eliminated the need for Treadwell to confront bears close to his camp, but he didn't want to "hurt" his "friends".  The end result was two dead bears and two dead people.  How moral is that?  There's a reason why campers and the Park Rangers who camp in Katmai use electric fences.  They work!  Not only that, it's a matter of wildlife ethics to use a fence to protect not only yourself, but the bears, too.    Of Heros and Myths 04:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Timothy Treadwell article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." Hilariously pretentious post, though. PenguinJockey (talk) 07:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

October
He can't have travelled to "Grizzly Maze" in October, as the article currently states, when he was already killed on the 5.th of that month. Maikel 23:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * IIRC, the film described his movements as follows: He did his normal summer thing, starting in the Sanctuary and then going on to the Maze, then left altogether, going as far as some airport in Alaska, where he couldn't board a flight because his ticket wasn't valid. He then went back to the Maze only a couple of days before being killed. The film didn't give much more detail than that. Squiddy | (squirt ink?)  07:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Lack of Sources
There are only two sources on this entire page, yet the lack of sources is only brought up in the section titled "problems". It seems like the article disagrees with the "critical" view of Treadwell, even though that view is apparently valid, or at least warranted, after viewing "Grizzly Man". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.123.65 (talk) 18:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

"Early life" heading followed by "Death" with "problems" and "intrest in bears" as subheads?
Not sure if the headings should read as they currently do so I standardized them 198.6.46.11 (talk) 18:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)