Talk:Tip/Archive 1

I was once told that in some southeast Asian cultures, tipping is cconsidered rude because it is taken to imply that the waiter needs to be bribed to perform a decent service. Can someone confirm & add to the article? -- Tarquin 17:24 Dec 14, 2002 (UTC)

Erm not in particular. But it does become a conversation starter, meaning tipping is done in front of friends and then discussed about. Generally, in bars and pubs, the waiters welcome tips. Tipping is not customary in S.E.Asian countries so save your pennies :-) -- Changed 22:44 June 30, 2005 (GMT+8)

"Tip" is not an acronym.
I deleted this portion of the article:


 * TIP is an acronym for "To Insure Promptness." Its amount is usually set by the quality and speed of the service delivered.  A typical TIP is between 15% to 30% of the total of the bill.

"Tip" is not an acronym. See http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/tip.htm -- for future reference, note that the idea of any common verb being an acronym is usually suspicious (unless perhaps the term is a recent neologism). - furrykef (Talk at me) 12:41, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I looked at the article again and it turned out that the correct etymology had been given further on down. Why was the article inconsistent? - furrykef (Talk at me) 12:46, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Could people please stop adding this legend to the article? As pointed out on Snopes and in the OED, it simply isn't true. Rhobite 06:27, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)


 * Give me a break Gunter. You're saying that an anecdote on the Twinings web page is a better reference than the OED? Because Twinings is an older company? I'm willing to guess that Oxford has one or two more etymologists on its staff than Twinings. I could be wrong. Rhobite 03:17, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)


 * I've removed that paragraph. It would be to ensure promptness, not insure anyway, and so is a load of garbage. Proto 14:00, 25 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I put back the version that says it's an urban legend. You and I know that it's not true, but many people do think that "tip" is an acronym, so we should at least mention it. Rhobite 18:34, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)


 * Proto, why are you removing this paragraph? It's OK for us to address urban legends and describe how they are incorrect. You seem to think that Wikipedia shouldn't even mention common misconceptions. But since this is a common belief, we should explain how it's wrong. Rhobite 23:55, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Sweden
The article states that "In Sweden, a tip of the lowest denomination may be given as a sign of approval to a waiter who has given exceptionally good service, but never anything else." (emphasis added).

I very much disagree with this statement. First of all, it is obviously incorrect since it states that Swedes never tip anything but the lowest denomination, which contradicts an example below. What's true, however, is that the service charge is always included in the bill, so you're not expected to tip for that reason, but if you get good (and not just exceptional) service I do believe it's common to tip more than just the lowest denomination. This is especially true for fancier restaurants: I don't think anyone leaves a Michelin Guide listed restaurant with nothing but a lowest denomination tip, even though you might do so at your local tavern.

What do you think of a change such as: "In Sweden the service charge is included in the bill, but a small tip may be given as a sign of approval of the waiter."?

Singapore
The article says that tipping in Singapore is not expected and that cab drivers will sometimes round down. I wonder if this is an older custom? I was there earlier this year(2005), riding upwards of 30 taxis during my stay, and not one cabbie offered to round down, or to give change back when I rounded the fare up. Ditto at restaurants, no one said anything like "don't tip" to me the entire month. Perhaps it's because I was a westerner? (Westerners apparently pay more in DRAs too...) ++Lar 01:23, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Objections to Tipping
Re: removal of this section: I think this article does need to reflect the anti-tipping movement, as reflected by the recent decision of Per Se in NYC to eliminate tipping. []

I would respectfully submit that if the prior 'objections to tipping' section was POV, which it well may have been, it is more constructive to re-edit and improve it, rather than merely to delete it with no comment other than "POV, Speculative." That itself is no less POV.

From the Wikipedia NPOV page: (Neutral point of view)

"Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete

The neutrality policy is used sometimes as an excuse to delete texts that are perceived as biased. Isn't this a problem?

In many cases, yes. Many of us believe that the fact that some text is biased is not enough, in itself, to delete it outright. If it contains valid information, the text should simply be edited accordingly.

There's sometimes trouble determining whether some claim is true or useful, particularly when there are few people on board who know about the topic. In such a case, it's a good idea to raise objections on a talk page; if one has some reason to believe that the author of the biased material will not be induced to change it, we have sometimes taken to removing the text to the talk page itself (but not deleting it entirely). But the latter should be done more or less as a last resort, never as a way of punishing people who have written something biased."

RudolfRadna 25 September 2005 15:37 (UTC)

I agree with the above statement. Regardless of what anyone's feelings on tipping may be, I think we can all agree that it is not the place of a Wikipedia article to force a particular opinion on someone. This section needs to be edited to more accurately reflect it's heading. That is to say, it should cover the fact that some people object to the practive of tipping, and give the reasons why. If someone wishes, they could add a separate paragraph with legitimate refutations, but let's keep the obviously emotion driven opinions to message boards.

JohnnyRuin 11:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The UK
since as the article currently reads, tipping is not done in Wales, Northern England and Scotland, probably Northern Ireland (excepting by foreign visitors) -is it about to time to say tipping gets less common the further you get from London.GraemeLeggett 15:04, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Tipping in North America
The tipping epidemic in North America is so out of control it is making just "going out" practically unaffordable. There are now tip jars practically everywhere including at private beer vendors and stand-up bars. The whole concept of tipping for good service has been lost as a 15% tip is now expected for even very average or mediocre service. Perhaps in the past servers made poor wages but they now average at least $8 hour in Canada and with tips they can make as much or more as many professional people; for what is essentially a job requiring very little skill and no formal education. Take a table of six adults at a nice restaurant each spending $25 for an entree and $10 for wine. The total bill excluding tax will be $210. As is suggested in this article a 20% tip for large tables is advised. So during the two or so hours that this party are at this table (and while the server is most likely serving other tables) the server would "expect" a tip of $42! By my calculation, if we also add on $16 (2 hours @ $8/hr.) for regular wages, this individual will have earned a total of $58 or $29 per hour and that's assuming he or she receives no other tips from any other tables! That's about as much as a teacher would make; ridiculous! Plus it's not as if servers ever declare their entire income from tips so the vast majority of that $42 tip will be tax-free! Not to mention that many servers at a small restarant are a part-owner of the establishment or related to the owner. In my view, these people should not be tipped at all.

As for the suggestion that a tip of $1 per drink is proper, this is silly. Why would I tip $1 on a $4 bottle of beer (25%) when I have gotten up from my table walked to the bar and perhaps even waited in line for a drink. All the bartender has done is opened the beer, handed it to me and collected the money. People at retail stores do exactly this yet we don't tip them, so why a bartender? Perhaps a server who brings you a drink deserves a tip if the service is good.

The recommended levels of tipping in this article for Canada and the US are far too high, unless you are in a jurisdiction where wages are tips only, or much lower than minimum wage. I tip 10% for average service and 15% for very good to excellent service. At a buffet restaurant only a very token tip of perhaps $1 is warranted. Far cab fares I round up to the nearest dollar or perhaps tip an extra dollar. For any service that I have to initiate (ie.a stand up bar, purchasing an item) I do not tip at all, and see no reason to. If these people expect tips then people should start tipping the cashier at their local supermarket, they do the same thing. I do not tip the hotel maids at a North American hotel, though I do tip in Mexico where wages are very low and I certainly would not tip anyone for hailing a taxi for me nor a karaoke disc jockey. Where coat check is required I do not tip but if it is optional I might tip 50 cents or $1. For a personal service such as a haircut or station attendant washing my windows I might tip $1 or $2, regardless of the overall cost of the service. These rates of tipping are completely adequate and affordable, and this is all that should be expected.

I think the outrageous tips which have become expected by many North American workers are hurting the restaurant and bar industry by making dining out unaffordable for many people. The "15% rule" encourages dining in low quality fast-food restaurants (especially people with children) where tipping is not the current practice (though I wouldn't be surprised to see tip jars coming soon to the local burger joint!). As for the assertion if you can afford the meal then you can afford to tip well, this is complete hogwash. That's like saying if you can afford a car you can afford to drive everybody around who doesn't have a car. Moral of the story: Quit expecting something for nothing.

Outide of North America people are certainly more realistic when it comes to tipping practices. In Italy, only the odd bit of spare change is expected, you don't tip for a pint in England and in Mexico cab drivers do not expect any tip. Makes going abroad such a relief. --207.161.44.71 08:55, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree with you on this, as someone who worked in the industry, at least in America, most waitstaff make $2.65 an hour, if they made $8 the cost of dining out would probably double. This is due in part to what the owners have to pay in social security, disability, and all the other fun charges a company has to pay.  Depending on the size of the buisness(and the state it is in) for every dollar the employee makes the company give around $1.50 to the government.  YMMV however...


 * I've worked in the industry as well, and I agree that tipping in the US is a ridiculous system. Further, last I checked, if your pay+tips comes out to less than minimum wage, your employer has to make up the difference. Is this no longer true, or not true in all states? 67.168.139.10 00:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Minimum wages in Canada are in the $6.50 to $8.50 ($7.60 in my place of residence) per hour range and the cost of dining out is roughly similar if not cheaper (due to currency conversion) than in the United States. Yes employers must contribute towards employees' pension plans and the national unemployment insurance scheme; that is a cost of doing business. Obviously when people are earning $2.65 per hour, which is not a living wage, tipping customs should be adjusted accordingly. In any event, servers in the US, from my own personal experience, tend to "bust their butts" somewhat more to earn their tips. I personally know servers here that make well over $30,000/year, do not work anywhere near a 40 hour workweek, and provide (my own opinion) inferior service to their American counterparts. I think the tipping practices in Australia and New Zealand are much better. There, workers are paid a reasonable wage and tipping is the exception rather than the rule.--207.161.44.78 01:12, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I just read an external link to from the article. I consider that until the American IRS or the Congress, whichever applies, abolishes the mandatory allocation of tips at restaurants that I just added to the article, the most complex American tipping custom is unlikely to go away while some employers of restaurants in poor neighborhoods have complained that they must frequently allocate tips to their workers because customers usually undertip them.--Jusjih 13:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Too many people don't understand that waiters in the US make half of the minimum wage. In Ohio, minimum wage is 5.25, so I make 2.13 an hour. Keep that in mind when you eat out. We have to pay rent, bills, buy food, gas, and in my case, pay for school off of what you leave on the table. Tips aren't just welcome, they're necessary. If you think otherwise, then you shouldn't be complaining that waiters expect tips. Complain that it's perfectly legal and almost completely universal to pay us half of the minimum wage, which is itself nearly impossible to live off of.


 * I completely concur with the original writer. I have had this discussion with many people lately. The general consensus is that tipping has gotten out of hand in the US (unless of course you happen to have worked in the service industry). You can't go into a pizza chain or sandwich shop to pick something for yourself without seeing a scribbled tip sign on an old can or jar. Nevermind the dirty looks if you don't contribute.  The choice is often taken out of our hands with restaurants setting automatic "gratuity" charges. A pet peeve of mine is alcohol in a restaurant.  Bottles of wine for example may be marked up 200 to 400 %.  If I don't tip at least 15% on that - I get the dirty looks again. If it's a mandatory gratuity, I really feel ripped off. The assumption by many is that it's mandatory, regardless of the level of service. Even the Government has reinforced the idea that it's expected by imposing taxing on tips.  Many of us would completely support seeing tipping abolished, and have restaurants or other services simply adjust their rates and pay employees an appropriate wage.  Think of all the time that would be saved if the public didn't have to play games with this "custom".   BW

Forced Added Gratuity
I have a question. I was at a restaurant, in a party of 2, and a gratuity of 18% was added. I inquired as to why, and I was told it is their policy. When I brought up the issue of bait & switch, I was told there was a sign outside--there was not. The manager refused to take off the gratuity. I called and left a complaint to be given to the general manager. I was also told their policy was to only add gratuity to parties of 15 or more.

On the following visit, when I got my check, I noticed a 15% gratuity was added. The same uncomfortable discussion was repeated with another assistant manager, and the gratuity was finally taken off. (I tipped $5, or about 15% anyways). I called once again to complain, and was told I would be banned from the restaurant.

My questions are:

-Isnt this an issue of bait & switch, where one price is advertized, and another price is switched in with a 15-18% surcharge? -Can a restaurant ban me? They advertisze, aren't they making a unilateral contract with the public (everyone, including me), and therefore denial of service to me would be in violation of that contract? -What are some effective manners in which I can persue this unjust, and potentially illegal business practice? Ztsmart 19:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Something definitely doesn't seem right. An establishment run that way simply wouldn't be worthy of my business, let alone repeat visits. Snailing a detailed, factual report to Zagat and to Triple A as well as your local Better Business Bureau seems like the thing to do. knoodelhed 11:52, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've been working in the restaurant business for many years, and on the rare occasion where I've had managers allow a forced grat, it is usually due to the customers behavior. If the customer is rude or troublesome, and the server goes to the manager and pleads their case, occasionally a grat will be placed on the bill to compensate the server. This is very rarely done at most establishments. Resturants that will do it usually have higher tip outs to bussers and the bar, lus taxes taken out for a percentage of your sales. For example, if you check was $30, the grat is 5, the bar gets $1, the busser gets $1, and the goverment gets $.75. I agree that forced gratutity is rude, and perhaps not the best customer service option, but i've found it's better then have a waitress run into the parking lot and scream at cheap customers. Hopefully you found a better place to eat. --Poetrybetween 14:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
It seems that 90% of the "edits" to this page are vandalism and corrections thereof. Is there any what that this article can be protected and any edits must be approved before being displayed. I know that isn't how wikipedia normally works, but with the amount of vandalism occurring here (mostly either by resentful customers or by greedy servers who think their tips will increase by putting lies in the article) I think it would be appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Njsustain (talk • contribs) 11:25, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The level of vandalism isn't nearly high enough to justify protection. You can ask at WP:RFP, but it will almost certainly be rejected. --GraemeL (talk) 14:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Tips in Spain, Wrong Information that I've deleted has been added again, DON'T ADD IT AGAIN
Please, If we want Wikipedia to be considered something serious, I don't understand why deleted wrong information is recuperated again. I writed below in this discussion why is this information delated. Somebody writed this again:

In fact, the Spanish term propina'' actually connotes bribery in Spain, not respect, as it means in Mexico. ''

Reasons:

1. The term propina DOESN'T mean bribery in European Spanish. (And it doesn't mean that in any kind of Spanish, that statement about Mexican Spanish is not true too, probably is somekind of slang added by somebody that probably most of mexican are not agree with)

1.1 I'm from Spain and It's the first time in my whole life that I heard that tip means bribery, it's a complete nonsense.

1.2 I demostrate it adding the definition of 'propina' (tip) by Royal Spanish Academy's dictionary.

propina.

(Del b. lat. propina).

1. f. Agasajo que sobre el precio convenido y como muestra de satisfacción se da por algún servicio.

2. f. Gratificación pequeña con que se recompensa un servicio eventual.

3. f. Colación o agasajo que se repartía entre los concurrentes a una junta, y que después se redujo a dinero.

Translation

Propina, from latin propina

1. Gift added to the arranged price as sign of satisfation for the given service.

2. Little gratification to recompensate an ocasional service.

3. Light meal or gift that was given to the audience in a meeting, and that afterwards was converted to money.



Where is bribery here?!!!

2. Even accepting that tip means bribery in Mexico (thing that I doubt) In this parragraph we are talking about 'Tips in Spain' so this statement is out of place.

3. If we read the reference added to justify that tip means bribery in Mexican Spanish, We can this: Saran used the word “propina,” which in Mexican Spanish means tip, but in Portuguese the same word means “bribe.” . The reference says that tip means bribery in Portuguese not in Mexican Spanish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.125.30.81 (talk) 11:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Hidden Charges
A citation request has been made for the following: "Customers have a right to negotiate, alter, or refuse charges which were hidden until the bill arrived."

I don't think this is specific for restaurants. Any time you charge someone for goods or services, there must be an understanding of what the charges will be. If you have ordered from a menu without service charges specified, you are under no legal obligation to pay for said charge. As this is generally the way things run in the world, I don't see why a specific reference is needed. It seems more like a waiter or restaurant owner annoyed that he doesn't have the right to bilk people out of money they didn't agree to give in the first place. So, is it okay to remove the request? Better yet, does a waiter out there have a reference that says it's okay to charge people for charges that had been hidden????? Njsustain (talk) 16:00, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Counter service
I realize that as it's stated outright that tips are unnecessary for counter service, technically one has a right to request a citation, but this is asking to cite a non-existent practice. It is simply a corollary of the fact that tips for food service are ONLY considered customary when receiving table service, regardless of how common the existence of tip jars have become. I can put a tip jar on my desk during parent-teacher conferences, but that will not make it necessary for people to tip me. Anyway, I will dig up a reference from an etiquette book or other source in order to appease whichever counter employee took offense with this fact of life, but I will also add that the tip-jars are considered by etiquette mavens to be the retail equivalent of begging. Njsustain (talk) 19:13, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Begging? According to whom? I think that some about.com author's opinion? I think that a more credible source would be needed to establish this as a 'commonly held opinion of etiquette mavens.' Given the normative nature of the statement, I don't think it belongs in a wikipedia article, and should be replaced by a more neutral and accurate statement.Jigokusabre (talk) 13:27, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I see. So when a random internet author says that $2 is standard for valets rather than $1, that is a credible source. But when one says that tip jars are inappropriate, that is not a credible source. How convenient--whatever is in the favor of service employee's pocketbooks is the "credible source." Sorry, that isn't going to fly.


 * Furthermore, the "etiquette mavens" spoken of and referenced are published authors... not just on the net but in real printed books and newspapers. Nothing is considered more credible in a reference. You are free to list your own "credible" references with opposing opinions, should you find any, but please do not delete the ones already listed again.Njsustain (talk) 14:25, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Referred to where? The only reference listed is said about.com author, who is neither a published author, nor an expert on etiquette (she's listed as a "women's small business" author / blogger). Futhermore, I'm not the one making claims that require citation, because I am not imprinting my opinion in inflammatory language. The revision I entered is both accurate (tips are not necessary, and are divided amongst the staff) and neutral (which given that this is supposed to be a reference, not a soapbox, would be more appropriate).71.217.94.238 (talk) 13:17, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Tipping and Taxation
It would be nice if there was some mention of the US tax laws related to tipping. I don't know for sure (so I won't put it in the article), but many states consider the tips one receives at work as taxable income, even though a tip is not mandatory, and even while those same states allow large amounts of money (about $12,000/year) to be gifted to individuals tax free.

I've also heard in some news reports that some states 'assume' one will get a 15% tip and then tax someone for that amount even when they receive no tip, thus forcing the worker to pay taxes on money they never received.


 * I added a taxation section with some references to the relavant IRS publications. If there are differences state by state, that would be a nice addition as well.--Rtphokie (talk) 21:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Tipping and Wages
I've heard about some industries/states where tipping is common, to have modified minimum wage laws (for example, no minimum wage for bartenders) or even where the tip receiver has to share their tips with the business through shady 'indipendent contractor' schemes such as strippers who 'rent stage time' at strip clubs.

Tip Sharing
Perhaps a mention of the common (equitable) 'tip sharing' schemes in various industries, such has coctail waitresses sharing 50% of their tips with the bartenders, or waiters sharing 25% of their tips with the cooks.

Some of these might be overblown, or urban myths. But tax, wage, and labour laws related to tips are very important to some people.
 * Tiki God 19:27, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

As a server in a Canadian restaurant, I can tell you that we share a portion of our tips with bartenders and kitchen staff. At our particular restuaurant we share 2.5% of gross sales with the kitchen and 1% of gross sales with the bar. Assuming a tip of 10% (low) 25% of said tip goes to the kitchen, and 10% to the bartender, leaving 65% for the server. If there is no tip, the server must pay out of their own pocket to cover this tipout, thus on a 100 dollar bill, if there is no tip, the server must give 1 dollar to the bar and 2.50 to the kitchen out of their own wallet. Most customers don't realize this.

Europe
From the artice:

In general, in the European Union and other parts of Europe, tipping is rather uncommon, although there are regional variations.

This seems completely untrue. In almost every country in Europe where I've lived or where I've been to (except for Iceland and possibly Italy), a 5-10% tip is normal -- but not mandatory -- in restaurants. Tipping for other services depends on the country you're in, but cab drivers generally do get tips all over Europe.

Spain
the Mexican Spanish term propina actually connotes bribery, not respect, as in European Spanish.

The reference cited does not mention European Spanish at all, but Brazilian Portuguese. I've seen nothing indicating this is a Mexican term, or that the Spanish do not use it, or that the Spanish prefer a different term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.16.65 (talk) 01:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC) 4.- The term "Propina" is not a Mexican Spanish term. All around Latin America the term propina means "Tip" or "Gratuity". The meaning of "Propina" of the dictionary of the Real Spanish Academy (Diccionario de la Real Lengua Espanola) doesn't connotes any bribary and is clear in the meaning that "Propina" is a gratuity or tip for a received service. As a reference: http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=propina —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.139.133 (talk) 23:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

In Brazil, propina means bribery, and even Paraguayan border agents ask for it as bribery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.21.240.33 (talk) 00:22, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

UK
It is not correct that tips in the UK are optional. This could give tourists the wrong impression. Many restuarants and bars in the UK keep their pay particularly low in the hope that customers will tip the staff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.86.161.186 (talk) 08:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above anonymous commenter. The UK section is incorrect. Tipping is not only considered in restaurants when the meal is "particularly good." 10% or more is quite customary at restaurants where, say, you'd be paying more than £10 a head or so (that is, it's not typically considered in cafés or fish and chip restaurants). I will be back to fix this if there is no debate on this. Coop (talk) 21:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

belgium
it is completely untrue about the drinks we are cheaper than france and the netherlands with the drinks and tipping is done when your satisfied with the service most of the time a keep the change offer

---Tipping is rare here in Belgium. Only when you want to impress the waitress or you are well off or a tourist. Leaving the change is something that happens often though. 213.214.57.217 (talk) 22:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)Hicham Vanborm

Germany
The remark under Etymology regarding tipping being now called "Hahn" or similiar is total BS. It`s still called "Trinkgeld" or "Tip".

Norway
I happen to be a waiter in norway, and tipping is quite common, in fact, a lot of credit card machines (in mostly restaurants and some bars) Have the amount of the bill on the screen and under that it reads: total=blank a method which "forces" the customer either to leave the same amount or add a tip (eg: beløp=340 total=360) the beløp is the cost of the meal (or drink) and the total is the total amount you want to pay. Speaking from experience and other waiters the norm is around 7% of the bill 10% being a very good tip and no tip being frowned upon. In bars the change of drinks (one or two NOK) is normally left. It's important to mention that credit card usage is extremely common in Norway even with small amounts of money. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.203.24.151 (talk) 00:19, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Hong Kong
"For enhaustic service, at least HK$10 may be needed". 'Enhaustic' is not a word, but I cannot correct this because I don't know what word was intended: possibly 'enthusiastic' or 'exhaustive'?

Hopefully not "encaustic" 172.132.26.86 05:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The Hong Kong section was terrible. The entire article is poorly written, but the Hing Kong part was the worst, due to the overwhelming amount of arbitrary detail put into this one section. I think it is likely the original author was from HK.

I removed the word that does not exist, and many of the examples of situations in which tipping is not customary. If we are going to list every situation that does not require a tip, this article will go on forever.

The original author actually included that it is not customary to tip in movie theaters, massage parlors (legitimate and "other") and fast food franchises. That is totally redundant and unnecessary information. Reference to these places and situations would only belong in an article like this if a) Tipping *was* customary in those situations, or if b) tipping was *strangely* uncustomary in those situations.

A lot more work needs to be done on this article but I couldn't leave this section the way it was, it bugged me. Drewson99 21:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I tagged the Hong Kong section as unreferenced. If no information is sourced in a couple weeks, the section should be removed. -Agyle 15:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Penny under the Plate
Please cite the claim that for really poor service you may leave a penny under the plate. I have never seen this happen nor heard of it occuring. --M Drusus 00:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I've heard of the practice of leaving a "three-penny" tip (for the same reason that you'd leave a penny under the plate -- a penny just lying on the table could be an accident, but this way it's an obvious insult). In fact, I've done it myself, but I have no source to cite for it.


 * I've heard of the practice of leaving a penny face up, to indicate good service, but that the customer just doesn't have the funds to tip properly -- I believe this was started during the Depression Era -- and leaving a penny face down to indicate bad service. I have no sources for this, but if anyone else has heard it, and can cite a source, it certainly seems relevant to the history and practice of the custom.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.28.224.198 (talk) 23:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I removed an unsourced, possibly-related claim in the article earlier today, that a penny might be left as a tip (didn't mention under the plate) to indicate poor service. I've been looking at sources on U.S. cultural customs, and it seems the contemporary custom is to leave at least 10% even for poor service, though any amount is certainly legal, and I'm sure people have left a penny on occasion. I'll keep an eye out for sources on one-cent tips. -Agyle 15:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I heard of leaving two pennies on the plate for bad service, with no specification if those pennies should be face up or down. But I don't have a source either other than family and friends.  --Champaign (talk) 01:11, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

People do leave pennies for bad service... rude people, that is. Just because people do it, doesn't mean it's an appropriate or recommended custom. I've also heard of people spelling out "F___ YOU" with pennies for bad service, or supergluing pennies to the table. Obviously these are not proper just because they have been done by some oafs. If you receive poor service you should talk to the manager to have it addressed, and can leave no tip if you really want, but making a deliberate insult to a server with a penny is just plain rude. Njsustain (talk) 14:34, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

No tipping in Japan? I dissagree!
I`m not sure why it is mentioned "Tipping is not the custom in Japan and it is almost never done."

I am currently working in a Japanese hotel, and let me say that I recieve lots of tips from japanese people. And I stress, this is not a case of being confused between Japanese and Western custom, it is a genuine Japanese tip.

Tipping in japan is strange, I will add. It is by no means expected but is seen as a voluntary action to either express personal wealth, status or just to be nice. Japanese when they do tip, tend to tip big. That is, anything from ¥500-10,000 (US $5-100) is common for a porter/bellboy, reguardless of the number or size of bags. Though it is somewhat rare that I or anyone I work with to recieve anything less than ¥1,000 ($10) from a single customer. They tend to come from either younger upwardly mobile sorts or from the elderly, who seem to tip out of a kind of grandmother/ grandfather complex. Asside from that, its just about impossible to spot who is going to tip but usiually its in the range of 1/20 to 1/50 customers.

This is kinda highlighted again in the hostessing industry, where you can be expect to be tipped several hundred dollars (equivelant) just for bringing a drink. While this is certainly a very special circumstane it certainly highlights the culture of japanese tipping. I myself have been tipped ¥10,000 ($100) a number of times so far, often just for a single bag.

Asside from that though, I can`t really speculate about other industries without having worked in them. It would be good if anyone else with any working experiance in Japan can comment further.


 * The text currently says "...it is almost never done in casual restaurants,..." and thus does not contradict that hotel tipping may be more common. I'm not sure if it was that way when you added your comments. In any case, no reference is provided for the section, and I added unreferenced and disputed tags. Someone familiar with Japanese culture may better able to find an accurate, up-to-date source. Customs seem to be changing in much of East Asia, and even recently-written U.S. sources, relying on past publications, may be repeating obsolete information. -Agyle 15:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I've heard some people tend to tip at Japanese hotel (ryokan). Personally, I think it is a bribery and very snobbish act.

Also some people tip to doctor or nurse at hospital. But recently tipping is considered bribery and prohibited by hospital rule. 59.159.102.12 16:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I will delete this wrong description:
 * "In Japan, for example, tipping is considered an insult both to the owner of the establishment and to the server."

Although tipping is not a general custom in Japan, nobody generally thinks that tipping is an insult. This description probably relies heavily on personal experience. I guess people usually just decline or don't know how to react to tipping. In addition, as may have discussed, tipping is sometimes a manner, say, in traditional Japanese hotels where employees bring food to the room, clean it up, and make futon. Hrkoew (talk) 19:33, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Karaoke DJs
I've gone to plenty of karaoke nights - in NH, Mass, and Washington - and I have never once seen or even heard mention of anyone tipping the karaoke DJ. Can anyone back this up?


 * I live in Washington and among my circle of friends at least, tipping the karaoke DJ is seen as an obligation, but failing to do so is not quite as rude as, say, stiffing a waitress or delivery person. He deserves a couple of bucks for having to listen to drunk assholes belt out 'Welcome to the Jungle' 5 times a night, don't you think? :P PS but related - Tipping nightclub/party DJs is not common, and they will rarely have a jar out unless the event is a charity fundraiser. However, if you approach them between mixes with a dollar or two, they will be much more inclined by your thoughtful gesture to play the song you request. ;)

Pizza delivery guy
"The deliverer pays for his or her fuel. Many drivers are contractors who receive no hourly wage."

I have never heard of this being the case. I have some friends who are delivery drivers, they work for the company, are compensated for gas, and receive hourly wages. I think this might be an example of someone who delivers pizzas trying to guilt people into tipping extra. 128.138.169.103 21:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Incorrect, sir. I deliver pizzas, and I am the one who added this to the section. While it is true that for major corporate chains drivers are given a wage and occasionally gas money, for most local businesses the drivers are independent contractors.  This serves the dual purpose of relieving the employer of liability as well as allowing them to have a delivery service at no cost to themselves. The delivery charge (usually $1.00 - $1.50) goes directly to them in this case, mostly to compensate them for the cost of fuel, brakes, repairs, etc.


 * A good rule of thumb is that if the delivery driver has on a uniform, they are store employees. The second best indicator is a car "topper" or sign. If someone is delivering to your house with no uniform and no sign, they are most likely independent contractors. If they have no uniform but do have a sign, they could be employees but it's not as likely. (One business I know of uses contractors but lets them keep more of the delivery charge if they use a topper)  If they are wearing a uniform and have a topper, they are hourly employees.Mr. Sparkle 21:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I used to work at a pizzaria (as a cook, not as a driver). The driver's received a wage per-mile in addition to their salary, the intent of which was to pay for gas with it.  I don't consider this as the driver paying for gas, so I think the absoluteness of this statement could be reworded to show that it isn't always and unequivocally the case.--Hawk405359 04:52, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I admit that YMMV, but in every case I personally know of, having worked in the industry and knowing other drivers in the area, local shops do not pay their drivers. They run on small margins and don't want to have the liability hanging over their heads.  That's also fewer people they have to deal with in terms of reporting taxes.Mr. Sparkle 02:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I recently noticed that the Dominos chainin some areas is charging a small delivery fee. Question - should the Deliver's tip be reduced as a result ?  Thanks for your input.


 * No one can really tell you what you need to tip. However, from people I know who worked at Dominos, that delivery charge is quite small, and even then, the driver's don't always receive it. In some cases the restaurant even takes that money as compensation for paying a driver's wage. Generally I'd say just give $2 or 10% of the total you're asked for.Mr. Sparkle 02:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I am a delivery driver for Papa John's, and have delivered pizza for about 5 years at different places. Before gas became more expensive, I would get "mileage" of around $.15 per delivery. Currently our store charges a delivery fee of $1.50, but we only get $1.00 per delivery for mileage. The delivery charge alone doesn't cover the total car expense, if you allow for around $.30-.40 per mile for gas/ wear and tear, and an average of 4-6 miles per delivery(I average about 8 miles per delivery, but we have a large delivery area.) One customer I had who claimed to be a former delivery driver suggested to me that you should tip the change for an order below $10 (i.e. if the price is $6.50, you would give them $7.00 and let them keep the change.) For $10-20 you would give an additional dollar, for $20-30 an additional two dollars, etc. Of course, I like 15%, but the above seems pretty fair to me, with maybe a little more if you are a long way from the store. --71.75.62.194 06:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Slovenia
Being from Slovenia, I can say for sure tipping is not that uncommon here. It is in no case obligatory and would most probably be considered very rude to be expected (what are the wages then for?), but it is seen as a nice gesture form the customer and is usually happyly accepted. Especially at the restaurants and sometimes bars it is not uncommon to round the final sum up a bit, particulary if the service has been exceptional. Even in some shops tipping is not that uncommon, when a customer wants to reward a kind service.

India
I disagree with what is written under India. Its written about Indian Americans and not about Indians in India.

In India you do have to leave tips at restuarants where service is provied,not at self service ones. Tips also paid at Valet Parking, home delivery and many others. The term Bakshish means tip


 * No you don't have to tip. I've lived in India all my life and never tip. Most Indians don't like to pay tips and will not do so if given a choice.Bhagwad (talk) 17:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Hong Kong
Noticed the cleanup notice on Hong Kong. One immediate change should be to "waiters may feel weird..." There has got to be a better way of putting this, but I'm not even too sure what it means. --Mucus 16:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Iceland
I removed "except when a customer wants to show appreciation for exceptionally good service" which does not reflect local custom. Tipping is simply never ever expected in Iceland and locals never ever do it. --D. Webb 00:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

End Links
I recommend removing Straight Dope Staff Report: Should a restaurant tip be based on the check before or after tax? from the links. It belabors a minute point and is not worth the time invested. Another Straight Dope page is linked if one desires to read that site further.

References needed
IMHO, most of this article, such as the detailed list for the U.S., looks like either original research or opinion, none of which are encyclopedic. This topic, by its very nature, is a bit fuzzy; however, if Wikipedia is going to give such detailed tipping percentages, it should either cite published empirical studies about tipping habits, or published opinions by notable sources (at least a printed tourist guide!). Itub 02:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. There are lots of unsourced tipping percentages and statements that are too POV. Commonly unsourced words to look out for in this article include "usually", "appropriate", "commonly", etc. Added a few of the appropriate templates to warn the reader --Mucus 05:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with this, too. I'll go ahead and take out some parts which are unlikely to be adequately sourced in the foreseeable future.  -- Alan McBeth 03:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Also quite a bit of the use of the second person "you" and "your", adding the appropriate template --Mucus 05:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Service Sector Professional
Could the phrase "services sector professional" be changed to something less pompous and more accurate? Lawyers are professionals. Physicians are professionals. The person in the lavatory who brushes my coat for a small tip is not a professional in the same sense. Neither is the person who brings my food and drink. Being a valuable and essential employee does not equate to being in a profession.


 * Agreed. Consulting with Professionals, the majority of employees noted on this page do not meet any of the characteristics listed. --Mucus 22:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Tipping in US Casinos
US Casino information from inputs on: http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g191-s606/United-States:Tipping.And.Etiquette.html
 * Drink Server in a casino or bar: $1-$2 per drink. Some tip $5 for the first drink to make sure the waitress "remembers" them and returns often...
 * Dealers at Table Games in the Casinos:  5% of bet amount at end of session, or occasional bet for dealer in amount of your normal wager-dealer can show you where to place bet.  You could announce "I have a $xx bet for the dealers, where do you want it?". The bet is usually placed in front of the player's bet. If you're concerned about having your bets rated for comps, place the additional bet on top of your own and tell the dealer that part of your bet is in play for the dealer and as long as your hands keep winning, keep toking the dealer with the winnings from that portion of the bet. The initial bet amount would be $1 - $5.
 * Slot machines host : $10-20 if they make a hand payout (over $1000)
 * Showroom captains: $1-2 for the person who seats you, more if you asked for "special" seating - $20 for a requested booth or table, more for one up front.

Second Person
For the two that removed the template for inappropriate person, I refer you to [] and Second person. This article is littered with phrases like "...you will..." or "...you should..." or the word "your". This is clearly not-encylopedic, nor appropriate for Wikipedia so please leave the template up till this is corrected. I can only assume the problem is that most are only familiar with first person and seeing the article is devoid of it, assume that the appropriate cleanup has been done. Thanks --Mucus 18:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Take-Out
Taking this out of the article. Argue your disputes in discussion, not in the article. Contradictiory text follows:


 * [This is not an accurate statement. Servers, Bartenders, and most often the Host/Hostess must package the food you are picking up. This takes time away from other customers and if no tip is left for this service, then is reduces the workers bottom line. A 15% tip is customary.]

Mucus 13:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I would dispute the fact that bagging a sandwich, or putting a piza in a box warrants the same tip percentage as someone providing conventional waitress/waiter service.


 * I understand your opinion that packaging the food does not warrent the same tip as one would give for the service given during a dine in meal; however the point is that you are still recieving a service and thus it warrents at least some kind of tip.


 * ??? To clarify - The actual point here was: I disagree with the 15% level. I never said anything about giving no tip.


 * The last edit was both in second person and gives advice, two things contrary to the Manual_of_Style and Wikipedia is not an instruction manual Mucus 04:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Fast food baggers do not get tipped plain and simple. You don't tip the cashier for bagging your groceries at the supermarket do you?


 * No, you do not tip the cashier at a supermarket or fast food employees. But these employees make at least minimum wage.  Servers and bartenders at restaurants, except in rare occasions, do not make more than 3 or 4 dollars an hour.  Tipping is built into their wages in order for them to be able to make a living -AaronL 06:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * In Mexico City it is customary to tip the kids that bag the groceries at the supermarket. They are usually around 16 years old and do not receive any salary; all they get is the tips. Itub 14:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This is true in all Mexico. Eagle.ed (talk) 20:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

"At bars" in US
I do not like this paragraph: "Sometimes while at a bar with good drink specials, like $1.00 draft beers, your tab could only be $10.00 for the entire night. When in a situation like that, take into play the amount of time you were sitting at the bar or cocktail waitresses table. A 20 percent tip is not exceptable if you took up the spot for hours upon hours. Tip on the time you were there, the service and think about what your tab would have been if it wasn't for the drink special. Bartenders and servers are depending on your tip to make a living, meanwhile you're having a grand time getting sloshed for ten bucks."

It's written way too casually for an encyclopedia, and doesn't cite sources, and misuses "excepted" ("accepted" should be there.) The sentiment is correct, though. I'd like to rewrite it to something along the lines of "Sometimes drink specials or coupons will significantly lower one's bill compared to the official or menu prices; in these circumstances one should deliberate on the duration of the visit and the service besides simply considering the bill's total." But I don't have sources, either, that's just my opinion about tipping at bars (or anywhere one sits around for a long time and isn't spending as much as one would without deals.) Thoughts?...Mkilly 17:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Barter Tipping
Not sure what to call this, and in any case it would count as original research; but in the US it's been my experience that auto mechanics doing above-and-beyond and/or after-hours service, get either a six-pack or a case of beer (depending upon service). Although fairly common, it's appreciated much more than the obligatory 15% restaurant tip. I'm sure this happens in other industries as well. Considering if there's any reason to/way to include this in the article?--Justfred 17:13, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Tipping in France
From the article:

"In France, service charge is always included and tipping is usually not expected, though most people will leave 1 or 2€ after a typical restaurant meal."

I have no idea how common it is, but 10% of the bill, in restaurants (not in fast foods, and seldom in family restaurants -), should be rather common... (probably more, for good service, if you spilt your glass or something like this, or in expansive restaurants). In bars, moreover if you are seating at a table, tipping is somewhat expected... (depending on people and the place, you might be seen as stingy, if you don't tip, though most of times, moreover if you are friendly, it should not be a problem at all... it's the same as in restaurants, in fact... and as in restaurants, if you spilt something, or for good service, you might give a bit more...).

And as with other countries where tipping is not uncommon, you might tipp in hairdressers (there is often a dedicated box -as they often share the money between the hairdressers), in hotels (depending on services and price of the stay), for food delivery services (usually, 1-2 euros -proportional to the bill, though). For movers, this probably is very common, even expected (with the addition of some cold beer, most often). In restrooms, if there is someone (pretty rare... mostly in some big department stores), or a box (it's becoming more common, notably in family restaurants and fast foods), it is usually written the amount commonly given (0.20-0.50 euro; if there is someone, it might even be compulsory -if so, it is written). In taxis, though not mandatory, tipping should be pretty common, moreover if the driver helped you with your luggages, if you made him wait or if there is traffic jams (as they are paid depending on distance, not time), if he helped you to get on, or if your destination is a bit hard to find... In garages, tipping also is common, for any services by employees.

Sometimes (quite rare), it might be written that the employees do not accept tips (mostly in some restaurants and hotels).

Most of time, it should not be seen as rude not to tip, if you are friendly, and do not cause any problem (in this case, if the employee ask or wait for a tip, *he* would be seen as rude, by most people).

Most of time, you can simply tell the employee to keep the change (even if a bit lower than a normal tip), or leave, without mentioning it (even if the employee left the change on the table), in restaurants and bars.

Many young people, if they do not work (or did work) in places where tipping is common (or know well, someone who do), do not tip, and find it strange, if not annoying (annoying as in "I paid the bill, and I don't have that much money"). If the employee is young too, he probably won't mind at all (expect maybe in bars, though, as said above, if you are friendly and do not cause any problem, there should not be any problem with not giving a tip), but older employees might take it a bit less well (same as always, however, if you are friendly and do not cause any problem).

For firefighters (probably refused as a policy, but I'm not sure at all), policemen (probably illegal, and will anyway most probably be refused strongly), postal service (except for private transporters, for really big parcels, though it should be rare, and might be refused, as a corporate policy, by the employee... for delivery of machines and furniture, be it by craftsman or or chain/department stores, a tip might be expected, or at least common... though, depending on people, the employee might refuse it), garbage collectors, and gardians and cleaning women if you live in a building, no tip is given, but it is expected you give 5-10 euros (for really good service, up to 15-20 euros), at the end of the year -sometimes, it starts at the end of october, as most people seldom give money to everyone (some people might even get rather angry, when five or six people come to sell calendars, when they come too soon after the previous one came...)-, when then come sell calendars... (though it is not strictly seen as rude not to give anything -though commonly accepted that you should give something-, except, often, for gardians and cleaning women, in buildings -well, if you are not at home, no one will insist, though).

I won't include these informations in the article (well, they should be reformated, anyway), as I'm not really sure about how common this is, and as I'm really not into money things (though it should be clear I like to spend time talking about the most random things ^_^;). I hope someone can make any use of this comment.

Mathieu Bonnet 13:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Sizzler
Unknown what tax rules that employees of Sizzler locations are subject to, as orders are generally not attributable to a server, but they generally take ok care of me and I leave a tip of around 15% of pretax. knoodelhed 20:58, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Books on tipping
I found a couple of books on tipping via Google's book search: The Itty Bitty Guide to Tipping By Stacie Krajchir, Carrie Rosten; and Tipping Guide for Gratuitous Folks By Milan E. Wight. I don't have either book, but they look like they might be useful references for this Wikipedia article. Itub 18:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The definitive book on tipping in the United States is "Tipping: an American Social History of Gratuities" &copy; 1998 by Kerry Segrave, McFarland & Company, Inc. ISBN 0-7864-0347-0, available through your local bookstore.

K. Kellogg-Smith 21:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Maids and hairdressers
Maids and hairdressers are other commonly tipped professions that should be covered.

Comments on the Non-Encyclopedic Style of the Page's Content and More...
Many comments here regarding the content of this page not being "encyclopedic". Since "tipping", or the leaving of gratuities, is a custom that varies greatly from culture to culture, and is also a personal matter to most folks, I can understand why making the content sound more encyclopedic is difficult. Hard and fast reference articles lend themselves much more to standardization of content style. Look at other pages that deal with the customs of various cultures and that content style is usually different from the normal encyclopedic style found here. In my non-expert opinion, if content such as this - involving cultural customs and personal decisions - is expected to be written in a purely encyclopedic style, then it should include only factual information, like the legal aspects of tipping in various countries and the tax consequences and/or benefits of tipping. The questions of whom should tip or be tipped, and when people should tip would be better relegated to external links to travel reference and etiquette books.

Personally, I give tips to anyone providing me personally with a service who does so in a pleasant and competent manner. And the amount of the tip is proportional to how satisfied I am with the service. (And, yes, in my personal case, this includes my mailman and any take-out food delivery persons who perform adequately).

You lazy buggers
All the complaining on this page. Rather than everyone posting exactly what they want to happen and expecting someone else to do it, why not DO IT YOURSELF? Bennyboyz3000 09:29, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh you are so right! But could someone else put in hebrew characters the hebrew words that appear in the article? Thank you. 88888 14:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

We should add arguments for and against tipping.
--Steven X 05:12, 17 January 2007 (UTC)::
 * Wtf is wrong with you? Name one reasonable argument against tipping.Eno-Etile 08:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Guess you couldn't think of one. There is a reason for that. You know what it is? There aren't any.Eno-Etile 06:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Umm, how about: A) The person is already being paid for arriving to work with a good attitude and giving appropriate customer service; B) If their service is consistently poor, it shouldn't be bribed to adequate levels. Instead, the person should be terminated and replaced with someone with a good and professional manner; C) Many people dining at a restaurant did not expect to pay as much as they do for adding tip and tax, and many of the prices listed in the talk page for tipping could be construed as ludicrous; D) Automatically tipping (and expecting a tip or altering behavior as an implied quid pro quo for tips) reduces the actual impact of the tip, which is to encourage continued excellent service. Those are off the top of my head, we could consult Mr. Pink as well ;) . This is especially problematic when considering that sometimes there is retaliation for not giving a tip, or a tip is expected as if those offering the service are entitled to them. I've worked in restaraunts and fast food places, and I enjoy a tip for a job well done, but there ARE arguments against tip. It's probably just that Steven X just wanted to note them. Since some people do not tip and argue why they shouldn't tip, while others tip generously, it is worthwhile to include possible reasons on both sides.


 * Already being paid... you know server's get paid half minimum wage right? If you raise the pay of the servers the cos of ALL the food goes up and then even lousy service is rewarded at the customer's expense.Eno-Etile 01:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that such a section might be useful, but it would be controversial, edit-war-prone, and most likely un-encyclopedic. As far as reasonable arguments against, how about the fact that it's both arbitrary and customary and thus does not tend to reflect level of service (I tip around 15 percent no matter what the level of service, just because it's expected)?  Any arguments about salary inequity don't make sense - it's not that we tip because salaries are below minimum wage; salaries are low because of expected tipping (I don't think we would ever ask "how much do you make" before leaving a tip).  Why are tips higher in more expensive restaurants, where the difficulty of providing service may be lower and the base salary may be higher?  And why do we tip at restaurants but not at the hardware store, electronics store, or the auto shop (but we do tip at the car wash)?  Why not tip at fast food places?  Why is it that problems with the food that may be the fault of the chef or the establishment are "punished" by low tipping?  And you don't tip on an airplane because they're "safety crewmembers" that just happen to serve food and drink?  Etc. etc.  Seems like a major can of worms that there are better places to argue than the encyclopedia.--Justfred 16:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair enough I suppose. I sort of initially misunderstood what steven x was saying (I assumed he meant "stiffing" somone on the tip).Still tipping tends to give servers and others who work for tips a higher income than they could otherwise expect. I've worked with waitresses who went home with 100+ a day as opposed to the minimum wage day of $44 (at the time). But screw it my opinion is POV.Eno-Etile 06:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * From Lynn, Zinkhan, Harris "Consumer Tipping: A Cross-Country Study" (1993, Journal of Consumer Research v20 #3):


 * Tipping Increases Power Differences. Service workers who receive tips generally occupy menial, lowstatus jobs such as that of bartender, cab driver, porter, or waiter (Hemenway 1984). The practice of tipping reinforces and makes salient the inferior status of these workers. The fact that customers may decide how much to tip after services have already been rendered gives the customer power over service workers and communicates distrust in the servers' work ethic (Hemenway 1984).
 * Tipping Increases Uncertainty. Tipping increases uncertainty for both service workers and their customers. Tips represent a large portion of many service workers' incomes (Schmidt 1985). However, tip income is often variable and is never guaranteed. As Butler and Skipper (1980) write, "The dictates of custom cannot provide the security of the contract. With no contract to specify tips, one's wages are uncertain" (p. 490).
 * Tipping Weakens Organizational Commitment. One of the less obvious consequences of tipping is that it weakens service workers' ties to the organizations that employ them. Service employees often experience role conflict stemming from the competing demands of their customers and their supervisors (Shamir 1980). To the extent that service workers are dependent on customers for tips, they are likely to assign greater weight to customers' demands than to demands from their supervisors. Furthermore, research suggests that tipping increases the role conflicts experienced by service workers and decreases their job satisfaction (Shamir 1983).
 * Tipping Weakens Social Relationships. The final consequence of tipping to be discussed in this article is that it weakens the social relationships between customers and servers. Money is a generalized store of value that is used as a medium of economic exchange (Furnham and Lewis 1986). It is generally considered inappropriate to give money as a gift (Hussein 1984; Webley, Lea, and Portalska 1983) or as a form of reciprocation in close social relationships (Foa 1971). Thus, monetary tips weaken the social relationships between customers and service workers and reduce their interactions to economic exchanges (Shamir 1984).

Here's another one
 * Tipping Encourages Racism Against Customers If there is a perceived or actual difference in the amount of tips given by individuals of certain races, nationalities, religions or ethnicities, waiters may use this fact to provide a lower standard of service to these customers. See, e.g. http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/113135677.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agnamus (talk • contribs) 20:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Copyright violation
The section on Italy appears to be copied from .&rArr; Bayerischermann     -  17:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Ideally
Ideally we can spin out each region into its own article eventually (Tipping in South America, etc.), which will make the article much easier to manage, but we need to get sources for all these random inclusions first.

Also, there should be a solid section on the "tipping controversy" (as highlighted in Reservoir Dogs), the debate over whether it's a valid practice or not. That's a lot more interesting than a list of every country on Earth. tilde 06:54, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

More info requested: tip the proprietor or not?
I'm in the US and a friend of mine insists that if, at a restaurant, you are served by the "proprietor of the establishment" tipping is not required. To me, this makes some sense, assuming "proprietor" to mean the owner or someone who receives a significant amount of the profits. But this usually happens at Steak 'N' Shake, when they are understaffed and a manager serves us. First of all, I don't think a Steak 'N' Shake manager qualifies as a "proprietor" as they are hired workers and not shareholders. They are paid (my friend would say overpaid to do almost nothing, but then again, they seem to always be hiring managers, so there must be a major downside to the job) to be managers, and if they also serve food to the customers, I think they deserve a tip, because that's not part of their job description. So who's right? (User:VidTheKid not signed in) 69.95.28.97 04:07, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Tipping at the Grocery Store in the US
The page says that tipping is not expected for grocery store baggers but fails to mention that at least in some regions of the US, a tip is expected if the bagger carries your groceries to your car, and is usually $0.25 to $1. Some grocery stores do forbid this (such as Publix) but their baggers usually receive and accept tips anyway. I haven't found ay sources to cite (other than my anectodal ones) which is why I haven't changed the article, but thought I'd mention it.

Universal Etiquette?
Frequently, this article uses statements like "It is not appropriate to"... I've worked in many fast food establishments where tip jars are available. Many of those establishments have employees who are nigh-simultaneously ringing up the customers, preparing their food, dealing with customer service complaints, restocking beverages such as soda fountains, wiping down tables, etc. And I've had many a late night where my food was brought out to me at KFC or Jack-in-the-Box. The tip in this instance is an incentive for horrendously underpaid US fast food workers to make the food healthily, maintain a good attitude and respond to customer complaints with tact and promptness. Obviously it's hard to establish things like this, but at least qualify statements somehow, say by referring to an accepted guide to etiquette and noting that particular opinion on who should be tipped. Anytime an article begins to talk about oughts and shoulds rather than whats and whos, it's violating NPOV. 209.77.79.7 02:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I could train a monkey to work fast food. There is no reason to tip them. Waiters make around $2.00 an hour, while even the most horrendously underpaid fryer jockey get's $5.1571.85.10.88 20:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Taxis in the United States
I notice that tipping for taxis is mentioned for some countries, but not the United States. JNW2 01:28, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Support. Because this is a point of confusion for many people (foreigner or not!), someone with a reference should add this. -kslays (talk • contribs) 21:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous user changing United States
An anonymous user or users keeps changing the restaurant tipping rate for the US from 15-20% to 10-15%, even after I've added a citation for the 15-20% numbers. We may need to consider requesting semiprotection. -- Mwalcoff 22:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC) : Probably someone who doesn't want to admit that hes cheap... Eno-Etile 01:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Australia section is completely wrong
Tipping is not rare, and certainly is not insulting OR discouraged. I worked as porter in several hotels and 20-30% of my wage was made up in gratuities. I don't know how to source this though, as original research isn't allowed...but i know its WRONG! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.131.135.99 (talk) 06:58, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is completely wrong.

I don't know where the author got their impression that it is not customary to tip in Australia. As someone working as a waiter I can vouch for the fact that the majority of customers tip. It is more a case of tipping being the norm and not tipping being an accepted rebuke from a customer who may think that the service was not up to scratch. Not recieving a tip is an insult to a waiter's standards of service in Australia - but it would be very rare for an Austalian waiter to demand to know a customer's reasons for not tipping.

Tipping, whilst appreciated, is not usually expected by taxi drivers or bartenders in Australia, although at high-end bars you sometimes recieve your change on a plate.

Not every eatery expects tips, you don't tip at McDonalds for instance. Although a good rule of thumb is that if a restaurant is formal enough to issue your bill to you at your table instead of you having to go to a counter to pay directly, then a tip of around 10% is customary for solid, if unremarkable, service. (If the majority of people pay at their tables, anticipating the bill and paying at the counter does not mitigate the expectancy of a tip).

Lofnazareth 19:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I've never tipped, or seen anyone tip. PonThePony 02:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I added the current text, which says "A Sydney Morning Herald article says...," but I'm completely unfamiliar with Australian tipping customs. The statement is verifiably true, they did say that, but maybe the Herald is wrong, or overgeneralized. Maybe the Herald article should have said "in Sydney" or "in more expensive establishments" rather than just "in Australia." If tipping is so uncommon that someone has never seen it happen, it does sound dubious. A better source on the topic would be great. -Agyle 04:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I can only assume that "ponthepony" hasn't ever seen people tip before because he/she has never eaten in an Australian city restaraunt, either that or they only ever eat alone - in which case "pon" must also think that there are a lot of forgetful Australian diners who leave money lying around on tables after they leave.


 * Obviously people might be suspicious about my motives as I have stated that I work as a waiter (I am also a student) and therefore I have a vested interest in being tipped. However, the advantage of my position is that I get to see how a number of people tip and I can assure you that 10% is quite common, although I must also admit that there is a small prportion of people who leave nothing (I'm looking at you "pon").


 * Of course none of this matters much because, as Agyle points out, neither "pon" nor myself can be construed as a reliable source. Nevertheless I felt compelled to respond when I noticed that someone (Agyle) was taking "pon" seriously.


 * I will keep an eye out for some better sources on this matter but in the meantime Agyle's sources are not too bad, even though I think that the Herald article is misleading as it lumps Austalian tipping culture in with the less generous New Zealand tipping culture. Lofnazareth 07:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree mate. In all of my live and travels around the south east coast of Australia, I have never been asked, obligated or invited to tip at a restaurant or hotel. In Australia, we dont really have a tipping culture. Perhaps more common is to an offer when paying cash for a transaction for a seller to “keep the change” to avoid a pocket filled with coins. More common is the gesture to drop these coins into a charity tin near the cash register to raise money for the local fire service, rotary club, UNICEF or other charity. Employers here are obligated to met a minimum or living wage. Hospitality or domestic staff draw upon a reasonable salary. The 1908 Australian Harvester Judgment ruled that an employer was obliged to pay his employees a wage that guaranteed them a standard of living which was reasonable for “a human being in a civilized community”, regardless of his capacity to pay. The judgment was later overturned but still remains very influential. This “safety net” once helped me to survive life through college as a waiter with some dignity without the need to rely on gratuities or tips. --220.253.41.6 (talk) 10:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The Sydney Morning Herald article is not in itself a reliable source - they are just quoting a website (tipping.org). I doubt tipping.org is reliable either. I think I will remove the quote, which will not leave much in the section. Barrylb (talk) 15:59, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm also Australian and my experience has been that tipping is rarely expected and customary in only a few select establishments, i.e. some high end hotels and restaurants. I lived in Perth for 25 years, ate out regularly and worked in hospitality for brief periods in the past. Tipping was treated as an anomaly and generally divided amongst staff when encountered. However, I have noticed service charges for large groups of diners. While the vast majority of this article can only be based on people's varying experiences, I feel it would be better if it were more confined to the countries in which tipping plays an undeniably large role in people's lives, such as Canada, the US and UK, etc. Dion83 (talk) 02:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree mate, this section is hilarious and misguided. Somebody please fix it and do me a favour by cutting out Australia. Tipping is certainly not and will never become part of the mainstream Australian culture. It is almost as if some service and hospitality staff have taken over the Australian section! The big-city tourist venues and casinos are not models of Australian culture. In al my life I have seen more money jars at regional restaurants collecting money for different charities such as the Royal Surf Lifesaving Service, International Red Cross, Rotary Australia, St John Ambulance Australia, Country Fire Authority, Rural Fire Service, Black Saturday Bush Fire relief than for employees. The small glass filled with small change near the front desk hardly counts and I never seen one at hotels! Perhaps somebody hoping to inflate their own chances of fleecing a few cents out of overseas patrons by dropping words into an online encyclopaedia. Cripes, leave it alone and be grateful that our minimum wage requirements protects your salary and work conditions and leaves you above the breadline. If you are so keen to strip a few more dollars from tourists, let them hang around the tourist traps, just don't drag the rest of Australia into an imported vision of a future dominated by bribes and spare change to prop up worker slavery. Leave it alone! --220.253.18.50 (talk) 13:19, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Page clear
All unsourced information (much of it dating to before February 2007 with no improvement) has been removed. All new edits must have appropriate sources or they will be removed too (see Jimbo Wales' zero information recommendation). That's the only way to keep this article accurate. —tilde 03:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * A three-revert dispute arose after that, and tildebee backed down on a major purge of unsourced material. The person who reverted the purge said that unsourced info should be tagged. Tildebee pointed out that many Fact tags were in place for months. His purge left all sourced material in place, but removed all country sections that had no sources. I've been working on adding sourced material, and have found some of the existing unsourced information is completely wrong. I tend to side with tildee's purge. If someone wants to use the existing material to work on finding sources, they can load a pre-purged version from the history tab. -Agyle 05:56, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Tips in spain
I delete this "In fact, the Mexican Spanish term propina actually connotes bribery, not respect, as in European Spanish." I have 3 reasons:

1.- If in this point we are talking about spain, then we are talking about spain, not about Mexico. 2.- I'm spanish and i can affirm that the word "propina" doesn't mean bribery, it's the first time in my whole life that i heard something like that. The word "propina" in European spanish means "tip", not bribery. Maybe in Mexico means bribery, i don't know, but not in spain. 3.- The reference cites Portuguese not spanish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.125.27.123 (talk) 15:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Circumstances of Tipping
In the section "Circumstances of Tipping," the following appears in the third paragraph: "For example, a service charge for all patrons that is automatically added to the tab with no tipping the rule in Brazil." I'm not exactly sure what it is trying to say, but there is some kind of grammatical error. -Nik-renshaw (talk) 20:57, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposal that we abandon the per-country tipping customs
I think it is impossible to create a reliable encyclopedia article with the tipping customs of each country. There are many unreferenced claims and even those that do contain references may not be using reliable sources. A site like Wikitravel is more appropriate for that information. I propose we limit the article to discussing tipping in more general terms. Barrylb (talk) 16:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If we don't abandon the per-country, I feel that we should at least severely restrict it to that handful of countries for which there are semi-reliable sources. It is clearly impractical to have a least of some 50-odd countries, when the bulk of it is clearly hearsay and is unsourced. Has anyone been watching this page long enough to have any idea where all of it even came from? I say we chop it down. And perhaps Barrylb is right, in that the individual tipping customs of nations are not something that really belong in an encyclopedia. Nik-renshaw (talk) 02:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I do feel like a generalized discussion of tipping by location is appropriate. I feel like the best thing would be boiling it down by religion, region, or some other broader division than country, and then tracing its differences among these regions/cultures from a historical perspective. Nik-renshaw (talk) 18:02, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I've implemented a bold solution. I created an article fork called Tipping by region.  That list was just too long and was overwhelming this article.  If someone cares enough, they can clean up the new article.  If not, we can nominate it for deletion.  If this was a bad idea, feel free to revert.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 20:15, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I would like a generalized discussion too but there is the problem of lack of good references and original research. If we can find any good quality references I would include a section in the main Tip article. I appreciate the bold solution about creating an article fork but I think I will nominate it for deletion. Barrylb (talk) 21:34, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

This article does not represent a worldwide view of tipping.
This tipping article represents a US opinion on tipping. It is almost customary to tip everyone whom serves you in the US. I live in Australia and I have visited many countries including the US, the US takes tipping to the extreme. Most if not all countries do not tip anyone at all. I therefore believe this article is biased to the US perspective of the tipping custom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.76.166 (talk) 05:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That is why the section "Regional differences in tipping custom" was added with a link to Tipping by region. Wikipedia isn't here to catalog every variation of everything one might find, but to discuss topics of encyclopedic interest with verifiable information. So, tipping was discussed as an institution as a whole (mentioning that United States requires more tipping than other countries). Nik-renshaw (talk) 17:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

gratuity versus advice
While this article mostly focuses in tips like gratuity, part talks about tips that are a form of advice, such as a stock tip Rds865 (talk) 16:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Circumstances_of_tipping

Bad English/content: "For example, a service charge for all patrons that is automatically added to the tab with no tipping the rule in Brazil." - As this sentence is referenced I don't want to delete it outright, but its meaning is nevertheless unintelligible. Perhaps what is meant is: "Sometimes a service charge for all patrons is automatically added to the tab with no additional tipping required, this is particularly the case in Brazil."--Lexxus2010 (talk) 13:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

People who are tipped besides waiters
Why not list people who are tipped besides waiters. Rds865 (talk) 16:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Tipping by continent needed?
This section just seems like a huge boring list, it is probably duplicated in the external links. Can it be eliminated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sajendra (talk • contribs) 04:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Suggested moving of part of tipping etymology
Should the etymology just relate to the meaning of tip the article is focussing on? Tips (gambling) exists and could house the relevant sentances stating it's origins.

Rmonger (talk) 14:02, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

To Insure Proper Service
I was tought that TIPS was an acronym for "To Insure Proper Service." Am I wrong? If I'm right, perhaps someone should add it, but that the "S" was dropped in the USA. --- W5WMW (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

You're wrong. That is a myth; a false "backronym." Njsustain (talk) 07:44, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, my mistake. You can delete this talk section whenever you want. --- W5WMW (talk) 23:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

the bottom line...
but this article blows

I am not deliberately trolling...but most of the content is just a lot of anecdotal evidence, opinion and personal belief.

for instance:

there isn't even a section outlining the history of tipping: etc etc
 * where did it start?
 * who started?
 * why did it begin?

Likewise there is no discussion as noted on the philosophy/psychology/science of tipping:
 * why is it done?
 * what are the social pressures on the tipper?
 * why do service industry workers expect tips?
 * what are the economics of tipping? sic credit crunch/recession/growth and boom times etc

If this article is going to be even considered to be remotely encyclopedic I would think that some of these suggestions were addressed.

Again to be taken seriously questions must be addressed rather than opinion dressed as fact. Hence tipping is a pervasive and morally questionable activity that puts the entire onus on the tipper to contribute an additional financial amount above and beyond the agreed charge because of the pressure of social expectancy and not whether the amount is justifiable or deserved. As the services that a 'tip' are random and appear to be based on precedence - then what makes a tip acceptable?

Eg why don't we tip a builder who built a house? Plastered a wall? Why is always unskilled jobs? For instance carrying some hot food to a table or bags from a car to a doorway? An activity that any able-boded human should be expected to do?

Questions, questions question.... Why should someone who carries you bags get a


 * Interesting comment, though it ends rather abruptly. Good points, so why don't you look up some of the information and add it to the article, with references? Or you could request some citations for alleged facts that you find questionable.
 * While history may be useful, it is not absolutely necessary to have the background in an encyclopedic article. As for philosophy and psychology about it, there are plenty of articles that do not delve into that facet of the topic but are still excellent.
 * Finally, not to make this personal, but if you want to show that you are not a troll, it's probably good to start with something other than "but this article blows." Just a suggestion.Njsustain (talk) 18:08, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

English, please
This article is in ENGLISH wikipedia. That doesn't mean it should focus on English speaking countries, but it should be written in standard English, and should be verifiable. A lot of the info from random non-English speaking countries seems to be completely anecdotal, besides being written poorly.

I don't intend to clean up the writing for countries I know nothing about, but I will delete sections that are dubious and poorly written.Njsustain (talk) 13:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)