Talk:Tir na n-Og Award

Notable winners, English and Welsh
This entry unfairly favours the English-language recipients of the award, only because I do not speak Welsh and am not familiar with the field. Please expand it, for example to identify the notable Welsh-language winners, if you can. I will be extending the list of winners at some point. Robina Fox 09:15, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It's good that the list of winners is complete. -P64
 * Honestly, I would scrap the "notable winners" section. For one thing, how are we determining "notable" authors versus non-notable ones?  They've all won the award.  For another, it's a primarily Welsh-language prize where the article (as Robina Fox points out) highlights a set of "notable" English-language writers and none of the Welsh ones.  I could pick out some "better known" Welsh authors for it, but I just don't feel this is really adding anything useful, and it presents a distorted picture. -- Shimmin Beg (talk) 08:21, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Here is the offending summary, whose code is now hidden from display: (deleted)
 * (quote) Notable winners include Kevin Crossley-Holland, Catherine Fisher, Susan Cooper and Jenny Nimmo.
 * Three of them are precisely the authors of those four English-language award-winning books that have en:wikipedia articles. Fisher is the exception and one of several other award-winning authors with biographies here.
 * Elsewhere in Talk space, this fortnight I posted a similar summary that was mistaken or misleading about award-winning books in that the fifth bluelink title is Welsh-language. But that link is not supported by the target article. Culhwch ac Olwen by Gwyn Thomas and M. Jones, winner of the 1989 Nonfiction award, is some adaptation of mythological or medieval literary material, and is not mentioned in the article Culhwch and Olwen.
 * unlinked 2012-06-11 in favor of the linked annotation "—a retelling of Culhwch and Olwen", but I don't know that 'retelling' is the right term. This is the only annotation in the list, in format I have used elsewhere, but feel free to select footnotes or a different inline format for such things (eg, superscript format by one of my colleagues). Momentarily, I will cover this adaptation in the linked article, inadequately ;-)
 * --P64 (talk) 16:12, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * (I don't know the recent book adapts the material. It doesn't simply fit section "Adaptations" as that is commonly used in wikipedia articles on literature, mythology, or fantasy --because it implies a conversion to non-written medium such as novel to feature film.) --P64 (talk) 20:01, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Primary and Secondary
Should the dual Welsh-language awards be interpreted in terms of reading levels? For native speakers of Welsh or native-English children(?) studying Welsh language? --P64 (talk) 20:01, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * From the CLLC link, which says "aimed at the primary sector" and "aimed at the secondary sector", I'm confident it's a matter of reading level and content. -- Shimmin Beg (talk) 10:09, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


 * (updated 2012-06-09. Many RESEARCH NOTES deleted after incorporation in the article. These remain, for interest or information, and appropriate to the matter at hand which is the level of eligible and winning works.)
 * WBC announcements of 2012 award winners, currently on the TnaO Award main webpage, mention "primary school" and "secondary school" audiences so I have used those terms and linked to Primary Education in Wales. That primary ed. covers seven to nine years, ages 3 to 11 at the beginning of the term or year.


 * I guess that most Primary Sector award-winning books are deemed interesting and accessible to older children in the range. --comparable to the eldest of three Smarties Prizes, 9 to 11 years, which Harry Potter won three times, Nestlé Smarties Book Prize. Does anyone know?


 * Three of seven 2012 shortlist books in English and Welsh Primary categories have illustrators distinct from their authors. That doesn't mean they are picture books, and barely hints that the audience may be younger children.


 * If true that no picture book has won this award, it will be good to say that in the article.
 * --P64 (talk) 20:42, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


 * "[TnO] Awards 2014" names the distinct illustrator of the 2014 Engl-lang winning book, and links a YouTube video that shows it certainly is a picture book.
 * The top page TnO Awards, version 2011-07-16 identifies the 2011 English winner as a picture book, self-illustrated.
 * --P64 (talk) 19:29, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

References to homepage
Currently the 2012 cycle is covered on the top webpage for the TnaO awards (call it the Homepage). 2011 is the latest cycle with coverage anywhere else --the latest with its own page and the latest on the list of winners. I don't know that 2011 material was retired before this week when I first visited. But I guess that some 2012 information will be exported during the next cycle, perhaps when there is a call for nominations or when the next shortlist is ready.

Anyway, some of my particular references will be out of date as soon as retirement from the homepage begins. --P64 (talk) 17:41, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Two years later the 2013 cycle is covered on the not-Homepage (its URL implies top page but its title "[TnO] Awards 2013" is accurately descriptive). The Past Winners list is complete to 2013.
 * I will check Internet Archive for an old copy of the top page, and perhaps elsewhere for general information about the awards. Maybe not today. --P64 (talk) 19:12, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
 * TnO Awards top page: 2012-03-102011-07-16; 2010-02-21
 * Welsh Books Council: April 2000 to date --P64 (talk) 19:18, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Mainly done today. With [ref name=about2012] archived 2012-03-10 and much brute force repeat use of annual refs. --P64 (talk) 20:54, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Format
This is a copy the 2007 listings followed by my suggestion for re-format of 2006 and 2005.

Before 2006 the dual Welsh-language awards recognised fiction and nonfiction books.
 * 2007:
 * Best English-Language Book: Dark Tales from the Woods, Daniel Morden
 * Best Welsh-Language Book (Primary Sector): Ein Rhyfel Ni, Mair Wynn Hughes
 * Best Welsh-Language Book (Secondary Sector): Adref Heb Elin, Gareth F. Williams
 * 2006
 * English: Tirion's Secret Journal, Jenny Sullivan
 * Welsh, Primary: Carreg Ateb, Emily Huws
 * Welsh, Secondary: Creadyn, Gwion Hallam
 * 2005
 * English: The Seal Children, Jackie Morris
 * Welsh, Fiction: Eco, Emily Huws
 * Welsh, Non-Fiction: Byd Llawn Hud, Ceri Wyn Jones, Tudur Dylan, Mererid Hopwood, Sonia Edwards and Elinor Wyn Reynold

Actually I would say "Nonfiction" and might un-link. So consider this an illustration of suggested un-bulleting and cutting repetitive terminology.

I hope this suggestion helps. --P64 (talk) 17:56, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Two years later, ✅ except to retain "English-language" rather than "English" roughly to match the length of the shortened Welsh category names.
 * Also "Nonfiction". Retaining the maze of redlinks. --P64 (talk) 19:14, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Desirable coverage
As I depart from work here ...

It will be good to add coverage on these points if possible. --P64 (talk) 17:58, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) description of winning works, generalizations about the works that tend to win any of the awards
 * 2) do any picture books win the Primary award?
 * 3) what reading or interest levels tend to win? (above)
 * 4) does narrative Fiction almost always win, since the Nonfiction award was dropped?
 * 5) was there any particular occasion or stimulus for these awards in 1976?
 * 6) how are the shortlists and winners selected? (Many awards have more complex websites that give rules and deadlines, introduce current judges, etc. I don't see any such things here.)
 * 7) Winners of multiple awards. For example, name the authors who have won three or more awards, or state that no one has won three. (I have started this section and noted that the first two winners and three latest winners all have two awards. To say more without a complete count will give undue emphasis, but I think this works for the first and last.)

Authentic Welsh background
What is the best wikilink target regarding "authentic Welsh background"? --in the few book articles and biographies about winners of the English-language award?

Is Welsh culture appropriate for "Welsh background"? Not Welsh language or Welsh people.

--P64 (talk) 22:04, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I revised one book article where the award was not previously covered, The Grey King (1975). In particular,
 * (quote) The Grey King won the inaugural Tir na n-Og Award from the Welsh Books Council as the year's best English-language children's book with an "authentic Welsh background".[4]
 * where Portal: Wales is the latter target. Those three words should be quoted and I'm not sure it's appropriate to pipe a link within a quotation. In retrospect I think the Welsh Books Council should be named only in the award article, not each biography or book article about an award-winner.
 * Comments solicited. --P64 (talk) 19:49, 29 May 2013 (UTC)