Talk:Tithe barns in Europe

In conjunction with proposal below - intend to delete two illustrated German barns
Neither of the two nice German barns illustrated near the top of the present Article are associated with any citation showing that they are for tithe storage, or even for monastic estate crops. I have also looked at the two locations to which their captions link - to no avail. So when I do the already proposaed major edit, I shall delete them, and perhaps insert instead a well-know and accessible tithe/monastic barn in England. e.g. Middle Littleton or Coggeshall. Okan 11:33, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Proposal - Tithe Barns definition and substantial revision of this Article
At present this Article is poor and does not serve its readers adequately. This is caused by the adherence (of the original drafter, presumably) to the pedantic and rather odd insistence of someone in English Heritage to deter the common usage of the term "tithe barn" for monastic and similar grain and other crop storage buildings.

The National Trust, a far larger organisation with a much greater building and land protection base, disagrees in this respect with English Heritage (currently re-naming itself). For example, the National Trust specifically lists as such the Middle Littleton Tithe Barn and the Ashleworth Tithe Barn, as well as including the word “Tithe” in the description of several others, including the famous Great Coxwell Barn. The National Trust is the largest voluntary conservation organisation in Europe, founded in 1884 and hence pre-dating English Heritage which, by its own admission, came from “small beginnings towards the end of the 19th century.” Furthermore, Middle Littleton Tithe Barn has a Wikipedia Article, with a link to the official Grade I listing data provided by Historic England (aka English Heritage) - demonstrating that organisation’s internal inconsistency. It appears that the medieval barn at Middle Littleton was in fact used to store grain collected as tithes for Evesham Abbey. Mr. Grisewold (whose excellent small book shall be referenced) visited England from New Hampshire, accompanied by his wife. They interpreted "Tithe Barn" in the more liberal and indeed much more sensible way. They provide a useful Gazetteer that also will help to improve the re-defined Article.

The following is my rough draft for a replacement of the Article's Introduction. If this is accepted (I shall take a few weeks of "no comment" as acceptance too!) then I shall be prepared to gradually add to, and further improve, the Article: - START OF DRAFT The collection of tithes in kind by a rector necessitated the construction of barns to store large quantities of grain. Some of the surviving English medieval crop storage barns, also known popularly as “tithe barns,” were actually built by monastic houses or bishops  <& Ref = Grisewold> Both barns formerly connected with rectors (true “tithe barns”) and others belonging to estates of pre-reformation abbeys and monasteries survive in many regions of England. Sometimes they are still working barns, used by local farmers. Others have become museums and listed buildings open to visitors. <+ Ref.> Their roofs are invariably timber-framed, many using contemporaneous carpentry techniques, giving them great conservation significance. <+ Ref = Hewett.> Those having timber wall frames, timber arcades, and similar historically important features, openly display the various historic developments of carpentry and are hence good places to view these clearly. Other such barns have stone walls, often containing openings and similar features of a generally ecclesiastical nature <+ another Ref.>. END OF DRAFT

Primary Ref. for above : - The Oxford Companion to Family and Local History (2 ed.), Edited by David Hey Publisher: Oxford University Press Print Publication Date: 2008 Print ISBN-13: 9780199532988 Published online: 2009 Current Online Version: 2012 eISBN: 9780191735042

Notes re Tithes in an English context (may need to be extracted, much more briefly, for the Article)- Definition: The tenth part of all fruits due to God and thus to the Church for the maintenance of its ministry. The payment of tithes is ordered in the Old Testament and implied in the New Testament. In the 4th century, payment of a tithe began to be taught as a Christian duty and this gradually became established. In England it was legally enforced by King Athelstan’s Ordinance c.930. The use of income from tithes was subject to canonical division between the bishop, the clergy, the fabric of the church, and the relief of the poor. As the parochial system developed the tithes of each parish were allotted to its own ‘parson’. In England, various Acts from 1836 onwards started to restrict tithe practices and payment ceased in 1988. In Scotland tithes (called teinds) were collected until 1925; in Ireland they were abolished in 1871. They have never been part of the law in the USA. Ref. for above: - The Concise Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (3 ed.) Edited by E. A. Livingstone Publisher: Oxford University Press Print Publication Date: 2013 Print ISBN-13: 9780199659623 Published online: 2014 Current Online Version: 2015 eISBN: 9780191744303

Culloden
Noting what it says here about some old barns being mistakenly referred to as tithe barns, and also that the article speaks only of England, I wonder whether the tithe barn referred to in the articles Culloden, Scotland and Barn Church, Culloden really is one. The local people certainly think it is, as does the church's literature and the material given to tourists. If it is, it could be listed here. If not, an explanation or correction is required on those other pages. --Doric Loon 05:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I have attempted to shorten the list of tithe barns and suggest that for future additions that they meet the following criteria - they have an article specifically on them (in the manner of Great Coxwell or Nether Poppleton) or at least feature within a village article (as with Bradford on Avon and Swalcliffe), preferably with a photo or an external link. Ths article can become a valuable one and more additions are necessary but just because a place HAS a tithe barn it doesnt deserve a listing here, (as with Barn Church, Culloden above) unless its a notable tithe barn, linkable or meets the above. Jeremy Bolwell (talk) 20:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Abbey Tithe Barns
I note when adding tithe barns to this list "please make sure the barn _is_ a tithe barn and not an abbey estate's barn!" but fail to see the purpose of this. Abbey Estate barns still held tithes within the definition given in the article "storing the tithes - a tenth of the farm's produce which had to be given to the church" and therefore I can't see why they shouldn't be included. The specific Somerset examples I've added are all designated as Tithe Barns in the Images of England catalogue maintained by English Heritage. Can someone explain the justification for banning Abbey Barns from the list?&mdash; Rod talk 15:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

English Heritage Definition
This article seems to be at pains to stress many of the listed barns are not tithe barns in the definition used by English Heritage yet does not actually use or reference this definition. I had a brief look for the definition on the English Heritage website (current) but cannot find a formal definition by English Heritage. If there are 2 types of "great barn" perhaps there should be a Wikipedia article for "Great barn". It might also be an idea to split the list out to a "List of tithe barns" article and perhaps a "List of great barns" article for historic barns not used as tithe barns. This seems to me a sensible way of resolving the problem of an article talking about 2 types of barns, both types of which are historically notable. Alex McKee (talk) 17:26, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Alex McKee, you cannot tackle this problem by categorial thinking. There are no structural differences between tithe barns, monastic barns and manorial barns. Moreover, most monastic barns were functionally transformed into tithe barns during the 14th century. The most outstanding example, the Great Coxwell barn, was never used as a tithe barn. And then, the world of wikipedia users is bigger than England alone. Only the French have the difference grange dimière and grange monastique (I renamed it from grange cistercienne, as it does not make sense to develop a different type for every monastic order). So the article could better be renamed in its head or subtitle as tithe barn or monastic barn, with the corresponding adaption of the first few lines. If you don't know the field of research, please try to get some real literature on the topic. You skipped my article as spam. That's understandible and to a certain extent justifiable as it appeared in German and in an obscure though highly ranked archaeological periodical. And while working under my own name, I'm vulnarable here. But it is AFAIK the only recent article covering the entire field. I could send you, if you like it and are able to read a bit German, a PDF.Otto S. Knottnerus (talk) 15:29, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what your reply is intended to communicate. The article stresses (or did, when I wrote the above in March 2015) the notion of some English Heritage definition yet there did not appear to be a definition available on the English Heritage site. I have no clue what you are talking about when you say that I skipped your article as spam - I don't recall your article at all and I haven't edited the article since March 2015, long before you edited it. Alex McKee (talk) 07:34, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Repeated - Proposal - Tithe Barns definition and substantial revision of this Article
I wish people would stop wittering and DO SOMETHING! Otto Strangename above is quite right and I support changing the Article name. I suspect the pedantry that used to appear from within English Heritage (now renamed) was just the individual view of, presumably, an influential individual (aka "a boss"!) It was (and if picked up elsewhere) still is, plain wrong. Please re-read my earlier post with the same title as this. Then would someone please help! Okan 19:28, 18 February 2016 (UTC)