Talk:Tito Minniti

Trophies
About the collection of "trophies": this word is a euphemism for the traditional Ethiopian practice of cutting off the genitalia of their captured or dead opponents. The usual practice was to subsequently present these trophies to the Emperor, who would then present appropriate rewards for this demonstration of martial valor. (I am unclear whether both the scrotum & penis were removed, or simply the scrotum; as with crucifixion, this is a practice I'm too squeamish to insist on knowing the details about.) AFAIK, this tradition died out in the 20th century: while I've seen allusions to this occurring in the pre-WWII Ethiopian conflicts, I've not encountered any such incidents during the Second Italo-Abyssian War -- excepting here -- or by regular units involved in the Ethiopian Civil War or the Eritrean War of Independence. -- llywrch (talk) 16:37, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, of course, I'm not saying it actually happened. Maybe it did. Maybe it didn't. But it seems that the Italians were primed for it, having already raised it as an issue and built up the Ethiopians as savages. According to several sources, stories circulated about mutilated bodies and photographs were used by the Italians as evidence later. Again, I haven't seen the photos (nor wish to). Of course body parts can get removed by shrapnel in battle or scavanging animals afterwards, so I doubt that the matter was ever resolved. Paul B (talk) 17:06, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean to imply that you did, Paul. My intent with that note was to simply explain to our readers -- especially those who come to the article long after you & I have forgotten about it, or have even left Wikipedia -- what was meant by collecting "trophies." I didn't have a reliable source at hand which explains this gruesome custom, so I added the information to the talk page, in hope that someone else down the road will find a source & add this to the article. And, FWIW, I fully agree with you that the Italians were "primed" for it; it is interesting that they just happened to have abundant supplies of mustard gas at hand when the war started, & when Minniti was found dead, maybe after being savagely tortured to death, maybe simply killed in the plane crash, they were able to deploy it with amazing speed & efficiency! But regardless of what really happened, when one talks about the Ethiopian tradition of collecting "trophies", it was a very different thing than, say, the trophies US soldiers collected during WWII. -- llywrch (talk) 19:06, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Edits
The quotation is already summarised in the paragraph below, so just inserting it simply repeats the same material twice and introduces the paramedic's name twice. As for the claim that his superior was in Egypt, that may well be so. Please provided proper citations. It would also be useful to know exactly what Montanelli wrote. Currently the citation is vague. Much of the dispute concerns the definition of a "soldier" here, since we may be speaking simply of armed tribesmen. The distiinction between soldier and civilian is rather imprecise, but central to the dispute. Paul B (talk) 16:10, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * OK. I have added a book from the Ufficio Storico Aviazione Militare and here it is an excerpt (p.58-61) with translation:

''Something had been reported by the Swiss Paul Gentizon, reporter of "Temps", who had been struck by the excessive disproportion between the high number of Italians killed compared to the relatively lower [number] of the wounded in the fightings of December. "It can be explained - he had candidly written - by the fact of surprise attacks, of hand to hand fightings, maybe also by the need of finishing the wounded." ''The suppression of wounded prisoners, that for Gentizon was a mere guess, in the reality had apalling aspects.As already known, on 15 Dec. 1935, after the treatment of Dembeguinà [an ambush to Italian troops], the men of Immirù had massacred 150 Italian and Erytrean wounded and prisoners [note: this fact, as explained by Pedriali in note 3 about that passage, is confirmed by Col. Konovaloff, a white Russian military aidé of the Negus, and is reported also by Anthony Mockler]. Again in the same month: on the 3rd at Debrì, South-East of Macallè, an Erytrean ascaro [colonial soldier] had been captured and disemboweled; on th 18th at Addi Addi, the aforementioned Lt. De Martino had been evirated and mutilated of both the hands. On the 24th, at Dagabur in Ogaden, 2nd Lt. pilot Tito Minniti, while he was still alive, had been mutilated of the fingers and cut the genitals. Then he was skinned, beheaded and his head was exihibited on the tip of spear in various places. The testimony came from an attaché of the Egyptian Red Cross, who, again in Dagabur, had personally watched the torture of another Italian soldier: mutilaled, impaled and trasported to a stake pierced on a metal bar laying on the back of two camels. On the 28th, after a fighting in the region of Macallè, out of 44 Italian KIA, 25 were found evirated and mutilated. Similiar atrocities were repeated by the Ethiopians in the following months. Italian archives are rich of full and circumstantiated documentations. The top of the horror was reached in February 1936, at the expense of 74 Italian workers working in the road yard of Mai Lahlà. The killing of hundreds of wounded and prisoners, Italian and Erytrean, was the system, not the exception. Moreover we remember the unfortunate Blackshirts of the Diamanti Group, left wounded during the first battle of Tembien, and all ruthlessly slaughtered.''

(Original text: Qualcosa era stato segnalato dallo svizzero Paul Gentizon, corrispondente di "Temps", il quale era stato colpito dall'eccessiva sproporzione fra l'alto numero di morti italiani rispetto a quello relativamente più basso dei feriti nei combattimenti di dicembre. "La si può spiegare - aveva candidamente scritto - col fatto dei combattimenti di sorpresa, dei corpo a corpo, fors'anche con la necessità di finire i feriti". La soppressione dei prigionieri feriti, che per Gentizon era una mera ipotesi, nella realtà assumeva aspetti agghiaccianti. Come già noto, il 15 dicembre 1935, dopo il trattamento di Dembeguinà, gli uomini di Immirù avevano massacrato 150 feriti e prigionieri italiani ed eritrei. Sempre nello stesso mese: il 3 a Debrì, a Sud Est di Macallè, un ascaro eritreo era stato catturato e sventrato; il 18 ad Abbi Addi, il già ricordato il tenente De Martino, era stato evirato e mutilato delle mani. Il 24, a Dagabur nell'Ogaden, al sottotenente pilota Tito Minniti, mentre era ancora in vita, erano state mozzate le dita e tagliati i genitali. Poi era stato scorticato, decapitato e la sua testa esibita in giro sulla punta di una lancia. La testimonianza proveniva da un addetto della Croce Rossa Egiziana, che sempre a Dagabur aveva personalmente assistito al supplizio di un altro militare italiano mutilato, impalato, e portato al rogo infilzalo su una barra metallica appoggiata al dorso di due cammelli. Il 28, dopo un combattimento nella regione di Macallè, su quarantaquattro caduti italiani, venticinque erano stati ritrovati evirati e mutilati. Simili atrocità vennero ripetute dagli etiopici nei mesi successivi. Gli archivi italiani sono ricchi di ampie e circostanziate documentazioni. La vetta dell'orrore fu raggiunta nel febbraio 1936, ai danni di 74 lavoratori italiani impiegati nel cantiere stradale di Mai Lahlà. La uccisione di centinaia di feriti e prigionieri, italiani ed eritrei, fu il sistema non l'eccezione. Ricordiamo fra l'altro le sfortunate CC.NN. del Gruppo Diamanti abbandonate ferite durante la prima battaglia del Tembien, e tutte spietatamente trucidate.) Sincerely (I have added even a citation requested on the Italian complaint about the superior of egyptian witness).--NewPangea4 (talk) 00:14, 13 April 2011 (UTC)