Talk:Tloquenahuaque

FActually Wrong
Tloque Nahuaque is just another name for Tezcatlipoca, not a creator God. This is extremely clear in Guilhem Oliver's huge study of Tezcatlipoca, as well as in most other descriptions of Aztec Mythology I know of.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 10:47, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

In Spanish is incorrect say to Tezcatlipoca as Tloque Nahuaque, Miguel León Portilla write as Ometeotl. Tezcatlipocas were a four gods creators and Tloque Nahuaque is only one.--Marrovi (talk) 15:12, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No, that is incorrect, also in Spanish. Tezcatlipoca is one of the four Tezcatlipocas, and Tloque Nahuaque refers to the actual Tezcatlipoca. Read Leon-Portilla's prayers to Tezcatlipoca, and Doris Heyden's article on Tezcatlipoca. Both explicitly state that Tloque Nahuaque is an epithet of Tezcatlipoca, and they say so because the Florentine Codex says so. Miguel leon Portilla says that the name is also used for Ometeotl, but since the very existence of Ometeotl as a deity is dubious that is less important, it is explictly and most commmonly used as an epithet of Tezcatlipoca. I know of no descriptions what so ever that consider Tloque Nahuaque to be an independent deity. .·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:32, 28 September 2012 (UTC))

Cantares Mexicanos
Cantares Mexicanos was wrotten by Bernardino de Sahagún and interpeted by Miguel León Portilla; Cantares Mexicanos says Tezcatlipoca no is Tloc Nahuaque.--Marrovi (talk) 18:29, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Cantares Mexicanos was not written by Sahagun. They also do not say any such thing, since they are simply a collection of songs. Cantares Mexicanos are known for being a very late collection of texts with heavy christian influence, they do not represent precolumbian Aztec religion. The link you include here is not a reliable source for anything, it doesn't even say who wrote it.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:33, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, i just try to be neutral and impartial, i've never deleted information you and other editors, only i have supplemented by putting all the existing approach of what Tloque Nahuaque. If you are married with the idea that Tloque Nahuaque is Tezcatlipoca, I respect your opinion, but I want to put the views of other authors to make this a true encyclopedia.--Marrovi (talk) 18:54, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * This is an encyclopedia and the information should be based on the best and most recent scholarship. I am not married to any such ideas, but I know of no serious scholarship suggesting that Tloque Nahuaque is a name for an independent deity. And you have not presented any.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:49, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Bibliography where say Tloquenahuaque is other deity

 * Obra "Historia de Tlaxcala" Librery Cervantes Virtual.
 * Marrovi, that is a 16th century primary sources that describes deities as if they were actual historical persons. It also doesn't say that Tloque Nahuaque is another deity. Please read our policies about sourcing: WP:RS and WP:PRIMARY.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:15, 28 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Obra "Cantos y Flores".


 * Miguel León-Portilla, Quince poetas del mundo náhuatl, EDAMSA Impresiones, México DF. 1994.


 * "Ometeotl el dios dual y Tezcatlipoca el Dios principal". Miguel León-Portilla (El autor nunca dijo que Tloquenahuaque era o no Tezcatlipoca, fue un texto que relacionó con lo escrito por Bernardino de Sahagún abriendo brechas filosóficas entre lo pagano y cristiano, algo que puede ser causa de confusiones para muchos autores.)
 * Leon-Portilla in the article you just cited writes: ".. y tezcatlipoca en quien muchos textos y codices reconocen atributos como los de ser ipalnemohuani, dador de la vida, tloque nahuaque Dueño del cerca y el junto, teyocoani inventor de los hombres y sobre todo ser el "dios principal" (Codice florentino 1979 VI 1 r y 5r)" Translation: "and Tezcatlipoca in whom many texts and codices recognizes atributes as that of "ipalnemohuani" life-giver, tloque nahuaque "lord of the near and the nigh", teyocoani "inventor of Men" and above all the principal God." ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:17, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: HUM 202 - Introduction to Mythology
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