Talk:To Autumn/GA1

GA Review
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I'll be reviewing this article. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 15:52, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Titles of poems at WP are set in quotation marks "To Autumn" rather than italics To Autumn. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 02:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Notable poems or poems of length are designated in italics. To Autumn is one such poem and I can link to multiple examples and consensus on the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:10, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ALL poems with an article at WP at "notable" or they wouldn't have an article at WP. Manual of Style (titles) tells us "long and epic poems" are italicized and short poems are set in quotation marks. "To Autumn" is 33 lines and is not a "long or epic poem". "The Raven" and "Ulysses" have achieved FA status; both are longer than "To Autumn" and their titles are set in qmarks. Only two FA "poem" articles are italicized: Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and Proserpine -- which most will agree are "long or epic poems". "To Autumn" is a short poem of 33 lines with a rather narrow focus.  While it isn't as short as "There was an old man from Nantucket" or "Jack and Jill went up a hill", it is shorter than "The Raven" and "Ulysses" and properly should be set in qmarks. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 15:09, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The rule of thumb that I've always seen, as I've worked on many, many articles in poetry, was to follow what scholarship has. Verifiability and not anything else. WP:V overrides any vagueness in MoS. If you want To Autumn in quotes, fine, but the majority of scholarship that I see and that I've written uses italics. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:36, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Searching through some more, it is about 50/50. But yeah, they are all switched to quotes. Formatting is not something I really care about (content, however :) ). Ottava Rima (talk) 02:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Be consistent with possessives: Keats' or Keats's? Keats's is the preferred style at WP.  Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 02:02, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Lead:
 * Try to find a date for the illustration at the top of the page. Not essential but a nice addition.
 * The date of the illustration is on the page - 1899. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:10, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I can't find it. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 15:09, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * . I can add the date to the article if you wish. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:36, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The story of the young lady playing the violin must be moved to the Background section. The lead is a summary of the main text and everything in the lead must be found in the main text. The story of the lady and the violin must have a citation.
 * Removed - I don't know who put it in there but I could not find any mention of this in the 12 books that I looked through. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The lead should be rewritten with some material from each section entered. Begin with a brief summary of the Background, move on to Structure, Themes, etc. and end with a brief summary of the poem's Critical reception.
 * I rewrote the lead. The critical reception would be hard to summarize without violating WP:PEACOCK or having lots of unnecessary quotes. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Background:
 * After May, he began to pursue other forms of poetry, including a play, some longer pieces, and a return to his unfinished epic. Include a few titles. What was the play and the unfinished epic?
 * Try "After the month of May". "After May" reads like a person's name.
 * Elaborate a bit on the situation with his brother. Was he trying to find money for his brother or was he suffering mental and emotional anguish over his brother's state of affairs and thus had little time for poetry?
 * This marks the moment when Keats ended his career in poetry. Why?
 * Because it was literally the end of his poetic career. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:10, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The sentence reads like he made a deliberate decision to end his career in poetry. Why? You could re-word the sentence: "This marks the moment when Keats's career in poetry came to end." but you still need to tell us why. Did his talent dry up? Did he die? You need to tell us why his career in poetry came to an end at this moment.
 * Added - "This marks the moment when Keats ended his career in poetry; he could no longer afford to devote his time to poetry instead of earning money." Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * a letter to Reynolds written on 21 September. Who is Reynolds?
 * Added "to his friend Joshua Reynolds" with wikilink. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * [T]he poet knew in September that he would have to finally abandon his epic. Why?
 * Who is Woodhouse?
 * Added "to Richard Woodhouse, Keats's publisher and friend,". He also happened to be the one that collected records of Keats's editing, information, and biographical information for posterity. He lacks a Wiki page for some reason (there are plenty of sources on him). Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Structure
 * What is an "odal hymn"?
 * Odal is the adjective of ode. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:10, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Some readers will mystified with the term "odal hymn". Try to link it or explain it further.Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 15:09, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would have to create a page on it, I guess. I could like to Ode, but it might confuse people without an expansion. They are musical odes (even though odes were originally musical). Ottava Rima (talk) 16:36, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Technical terms such as "spondee" and "Augustan inversion" should be linked, if possible.
 * Spondee has a page and is now linked. Augustan inversion does not have one. I provided information in a parenthetical to help explain "(a reversal of an accent)". Bate is a very technical linguist in that work. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Poem
 * There is some discussion on the talk page about including the entire poem. This poem is short enough that it can be included in its entirety. As it stands, you've tantalized us with two thirds of the poem and left us wanting the missing third. Should you decide to include the missing stanza, each stanza or individual lines must be prefaced with an analytical comment from a reliable source. The sections "Structure" and "Themes" could be combined with this section in an "Analysis" section. For example, describe what bilabial consonants are and then give examples from the poem by citing specific lines.
 * After spending a lot of time at Wikisource and the rest, it is prefered that only snippets that are analyzed by critics be included in Wikipedia with whole poems kept to WS. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:10, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You haven't given us "snippets" -- you've given us two thirds of the poem! Either include the missing stanza with analytical comment from reliable sources or cut back what is presented of the poem to real "snippets". The entire first stanza does not need to be entered here to validate the brief preamble to the section. Present your material in "interpretation" and "plot summary" fashion thus: "There is a union of maturation and growth, two oppositional forces, within the poem, and this union instills an idea within nature that the season will not end." This statement is interpretation and needs a citation. Now follows plot summary which does not require citation.  "In the first stanza, for example, Keats asks us to believe the season and the sun "conspire" to bring fruits, vegetables, and nuts to maturity ("ripeness") and then, in opposition to this maturity presents a picture of new growth and the idea of a never-ending season: "to set budding more / And still more, later flowers for the bees, / Until they think warm days will never cease."  If there are examples in the following two stanzas, summarize the stanza and enter a few snippets.  This entire section could be developed further.
 * I just added the second stanza with analysis by Bate infront. I didn't realize that the other two had full stanzas. It has been a while since I worked on those sections and I was not the only editor at the time (the 1819 odes were worked together as one set with multiple editors). Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Themes
 * Check the reference at the end of the first paragraph in this section. It reads: "pp. 581-581".
 * Changed the second number to 583 per Bate. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The phrase "builds off of" in the first sentence is awkward. The two efs sound like a dog barking: ruff ruff. Try "develops" or another word.
 * Changed to "The theme of "To Autumn" is connected to the theme of Keats's "Ode to Melancholy"". Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In the first sentence, check and finally an approach death. Something is missing.
 * "ing" was missing. Now fixed. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Again, there is much here that could be combined with the two previous sections in an "Analysis" section. The material about the female labourer could cite the specific lines.
 * The first section, "poem", is to guide people through the events of the poem. The "themes" section is what critics say what the poem discusses and goes outside of what is explicit in the poem (biographical details, historical details, etc). I rewrote the section some and added line numbers. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * printed in 15 September How about "printed on"? Include the year. Where was the poem printed - a book, newspaper? Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 02:14, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The line says that it was printed in the Examiner. I wikilinked Leigh Hunt and the Examiner. I added "1819" to the date. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * This section is develoed as far as it needs to go. I will PASS this section as it now is. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 00:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Critical reception
 * Fine.
 * On second thought, I would like to see some reviews or commentary from the period of the poem's publication as well as some comment from distinguished 19th-century critics, scholars, and poets. The first sentence The poem widely has been considered a masterpiece of Romantic English poetry reads POV and OR. A citation is needed -- unless you're referring to the few quotations that follow from Bate and Evert. Even then, I wouldn't describe two critical comments as "widely".  Have any great poets declared the poem a masterpiece? Have any indicated the poem has affected their work? Include their comments. I think this section could be developed further.
 * I'm having trouble with the second paragraph: The approach in the odes is to deal with the subject in a direct manner instead of approaching the subject through a slow process of introduction. Normally, the slower approach is a necessary component to poetry, according to Walter Jackson Bate, "And alone among the major modern poets, Keats was able to get away with it. The ode 'To Autumn' is a triumphant example." Furthermore, Bate claims that "It is because 'To Autumn' is so uniquely a distillation, and at many different levels, that each generation has found it one of the most nearly perfect poems in English. We need not be afraid of continuing to use the adjective." In particular, "The distinctive appeal of 'To Autumn' lies not merely in the degree of resolution but in the fact that, in this short space, so many different kinds of resolution are attained. I assume when Bate says, And alone among the major modern poets, Keats was able to get away with it, he means Keats dispensed with a slow introduction to his topic.  However, it needs clarification. It's a bit confusing on first read. If this is the case, I suggest paraphrasing the Bate statement for the purposes of clarity and dispensing with the direct quote. Keep the citation, of course.  For me, Bate's appraisal belongs elsewhere in the article. It's more an analysis of technique than a "critical reception". In addition, these Bate quotes introduce ideas that are not explained sufficiently in the article. For example, The distinctive appeal of 'To Autumn' lies not merely in the degree of resolution but in the fact that, in this short space, so many different kinds of resolution are attained. What "different kinds of resolution"? What "degree of resolution"? What is Bate talking about? Things need to be explained for those readers who do not know the most minute details of Keats's life and work.
 * The first line was cited to Bloom - he is rather blatant about his claim that most scholars agree that it is Keats's best ode and one of the best short poems in the English language. I trimmed the Bate down as it would be nigh impossible to explain or even paraphrase in a seemly manner. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * This section is developed as far as it needs to go. I've copyedited and will PASS this section as is. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 23:53, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Image: A pencil sketch of Keats was made in August 1819 (a month before "To Autumn") by Charles Brown. It is considered one of the finest portraits of Keats. It would be a nice addition to the article. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 00:22, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I reworked the background section and expanded it to give a fuller sense of Keats's life at the time. It also allowed the nice addition to not format against the blockquote, which prevents any possible MoS problems. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 02:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Address the suggestions and recommendations and I'll return to read the entire article once again. Best, Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 01:38, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll keep the article "On Hold" for week. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 15:09, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

FINAL REVIEW

Criterion 1. Well-written: (a) the prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct; and (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation. (PASS. Well written, clear and concise.)

Criterion 2. Factually accurate and verifiable: (a) it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout; (b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons; and (c) it contains no original research. (PASS. Excellent sources and citations.)

Criterion 3. Broad in its coverage: (a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and (b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). (PASS. Excellent coverage.)

Criterion 4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias. (Neutral and no bias. PASS.)

Criterion 5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day-to-day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. (No edit warring. PASS.)

Criterion 6. Illustrated, if possible, by images: (a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and (b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. (Good images. PASS.)


 * The article is excellent in its development, layout, presentation, and adherence to WP criteria. PASS with hearty congratulations to Ottava Rima who has done much outstanding work on an article that is informative and a joy to read! Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 15:23, 4 July 2009 (UTC)