Talk:Toastmasters International/Archive 1

Club Meetings
This is copied from Talk:Toastmasters, that article was merged here (see details below).

About exceptions to meetings:

''How many toastmasters does it take to change a light bulb? 4! One to change the light bulb and 3 to stand around and say "that's not how we do it in my club."''  Many clubs do things a little differently than described (though all have similarities). I've been to a lot of clubs where everyone participates in table topics (obviously not noon clubs where they meet on the luch hour). Many clubs don't have a grammarian (unless we have a school teacher I don't trust them to be right about the grammar anyways). Some clubs permit non-manual speeches (though you can really make any topic fit a manual speech).

The point is we don't want to say "a meeting is like this" because there are always exceptions.

Merged from Toastmasters
I merged the material from Toastmasters here (actually that article was longer so I merged this existing article into it and placed it here as a better name - same thing). That article now redirects here. I copied the one entry from that talk page to above. Merge completed. RJFJR 15:58, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

TODO
I think this article, in it's current form, can be 'tightened' some. RJFJR 15:58, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * actually, it needs some updating in light of the recent changes to the leadership track just announced. --emb021

Related AFD discussion
Please see. This may set some kind of precedent. Graham/pianoman87 talk 02:51, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I see that Hellfire Toastmasters Dublin has now been redirected to the TI article. Roaming27 22:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Educational program
The information in relation to the Competent Toastmasters Award, and CTM designation, is I beleive out of date. The award is now the Competent Communicator award. As a brand new user I am not brave enough to do the change myself, but want to highlight an update is required. Sorry if this is inappropriate.
 * According to the official website, that change won't take effect officially until July 2006. Have clubs already started using the new names and awards at a local level? Graham/pianoman87 talk 08:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The new leadership curriculum came into effect in January, but the title changes take place on 1 July 2006. Members of Toastmasters from before January 2006 have a grace period (to 1 July 2008) to complete the old Competent Leader program (Advanced Leader-Bronze as of 1 July 2006) without having to complete the CL manual; those of us who joined afterward have to complete the new CL manual first. Of course, the amount of work in the new CL manual will likely take about a year to complete even if members work towards its projects at every club meeting they attend. --coldacid 19:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Since these changes are comming up perhaps we could start with the updated version of the awards section --Mig77 07:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Awards system
Since 1 July the award system has two streams, essentialy Communicator and Leader streams. The awards for the Communicator stream are Competent Communicator, Advanced Communicator Bronze, Silver, and Gold. The Leadership streams are Competent Leader, Advanced Leader Bronze, and Silver. --Mig77 07:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Previous awards
(a rephrased version of Coldacid's minucia regarding old awards and dates and thingies) --Mig77 07:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

PICTURE
I am removing the picture as it seems to have no reason to be on here. Coolio as Toastmasters International's logo? Hurrah 15:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC) Nevermind. Someone beat me to it. Hurrah 15:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed Links
Removed two links that seems more like adverts. One was to the Ireland TM site, this article cannot have links to every district. The other was two a quote list, again not right for a wiki article. Alse removed the link to Terrence McCann. I am sure he was a great TM but there are hundreds who could have links there. meshach 01:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Terrence McCann served for over 25 years as the Executive Director of Toastmasters International. He wasn't just an ordinary member!  Roaming27 09:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Accpted that Terrence McCann was the longest serving executive director but still that link doesnt seem to fit here just like Toastmasters doesnt have him of its homepage... maybe another linked page can be created for famous toastmasters or something and these links can go there.
 * Have you bothered to find out who he is and what he did for the organisation? I haven't finished his article at Wikipedia yet, but maybe you should look at the references.  Please read   and please sign your name next time. Maybe you should look at the TI home site more thoroughly?  Roaming27 19:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Have you been involved in Toastmasters International? Do you know it's history?  So you think that after 26 years as executive director that he didn't make an impact on the organisation?  Please stop removing Terrence McCann's link from this article.  He wasn't just an ordinary member, he wasn't just a famous toastmaster.  Read your Toastmaster magazines!  I'll finish the Wiki article on him shortly.  Roaming27 19:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry for sounding irritable :-(  Roaming27 20:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Still doesn't justify... Before you put this up again you should work on a page for Dr. Smedley —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.63.160.210 (talk) 20:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC).
 * 202.63.160.210 maybe you should work on Dr Smedley's article, whoever you are. Roaming27 23:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

New list: Toastmasters
Is there any interest in starting a new List: Toastmasters. This would be a list of famous people who are, or have been, Toastmasters. Terry McCann and Kevin Olmstead would be two to start. 147.240.236.8 20:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I would be interested is seeing it. I am a Toastmaster. -- 71.76.173.180 (talk) 23:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Would a category suffice? I know that it would preclude listing non-notable people, but most famous people happen to be notable anyway. Having something like Category:Toastmasters members would be more easily maintained than manually editing a list page. --coldacid (talk|contrib) 01:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, a new category would be good. Can somebody create one? 76.112.65.31 (talk) 06:06, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Toastmasters userbox
I've just created a userbox for any editors who are also Toastmasters members.



I'm thinking of creating a few more, such as for people who belong to multiple clubs or to show off your award progress. Any other ideas, tell me on my user talk page. --coldacid (talk|contrib) 22:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)



Created these through the overnight, going to add CL, AL, and DTM boxes later today or overnight. They double for the older awards as well, with documentation on my userbox page. --coldacid (talk|contrib) 22:22, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

That's the last of them for now. Docs for AL box alongside that for the AC box. --coldacid (talk|contrib) 04:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Educational program re-write
I'm currently rewriting the Educational program section to improve its accuracy and detail. BTW, whoever stated that the "Communication and Leadership Manual was split into two manuals": It wasn't. The CL manual is completely new, and the only major difference between the old C&L manual and the new CC manual is the name. (Having both handy, as I joined before they were distributing the new manuals, yet being VP Ed of my club and having access to the new ones anyway, I can verify this.) Hopefully I can get some mention of Success/Communication, Success/Leadership, HPC, and Youth Leadership somewhere in the Educational program section... --coldacid (talk|contrib) 22:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've completed the major edits, although there could possibly be improvements here and there. However, I think it's much clearer what educational awards are (and were) available, as well as the progression through them. A successful refactoring, thinks I. --coldacid (talk|contrib) 00:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Improving the quality of this article
Hi folks. Currently the Toastmasters article is only rated as start-class. I disagree with the importance that WikiProject Organizations has given it although it is understandable given the project's large scope. Still, the start-class grade might be deserved right now. Let's try to improve the article, however, and work toward getting it to C- or B-class. Suggestions? --coldacid (talk|contrib) 03:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a good article. It gives a good overview of toastmasters. The only problem is it does need some third party sources. Otherwise, it's a good solid article. I have one suggestion, maybe move the membership number up to the lead paragraph. I reassess the article to B-class. --Patrick (talk) 21:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Patrick! It's been nothing but a struggle to find third party sources... Most stuff on the web is either from Toastmasters or a member club, and much of what isn't is simply mentions in passing. I'm keeping my eyes open for anything that comes by, in hopes of eventually getting GA or FA for the article. It'll be my first A+ article! --coldacid (talk|contrib) 16:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * FWIW, most GAs and just about all FAs I have been involved with have needed a visit to the library to get some written sources, there just isn't the level of reliable sourcing online, so are there any books or magazines which have discussed the organization? California stuff, government etc. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

List of Golden Gavel recipients
I've created a page in my user space for a list of Golden Gavel Award recipients. I know lists are generally frowned upon, which is why I didn't make it part of the article (that and the fact it goes on as far back as 1959, and without individual citations for each winner, that makes for a lot of nasty blank space on a page). We should look at how to integrate the list into the article, or otherwise into the main space. Probably a good place to start is mentioning on articles featuring award winners, when they won their Golden Gavel. --coldacid (talk|contrib) 01:35, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Club Officers
I've always understood that the Immediate Past President was a full member of the Club Committee and therefore one of its officers. Surely the IPP should be included in the Club Officer list! Colin Roberts Randburg Club 2934 Colinvlr (talk) 23:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Founder - Woudstra vs. Smedley
What - no discussion on this yet? Perhaps the person who put Woudstra instead of Smedley knows something the rest of us don't. But since 'everybody knows' it was Smedley, it might have been wise to raise it on the discussion pages first. Maybe there was a technical case for Woudstra whoever she may be, but what was the case? And surely, even it's technically true, we have to put Smedley back in there as 'father' or something, even if not technically the founder? Colinvlr (talk) 14:08, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Speaking as the one who reverted the change, I did a quick experiment in Google. A search on '"Ralph C Smedley" Toastmasters' returned 13600 hits.  A similar search on '"Heather Woudstra" Toastmasters' returned zero hits.  I'm willing to be educated if Woudstra is someone notable, but to all appearances it was simply a case of someone replacing a name with their own or a friend's name, a fairly common form of vandalism on Wikipedia.  --mwalimu59 (talk) 17:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Who is the Woudstra, anyway? Never hear of her.

76.112.65.31 (talk) 06:05, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

History of Toastmasters
There seems to be a good start for a section on the history of Toastmasters buried in the middle of the Ralph C. Smedley article. The question is, where in the TI article would we stick the history section? Where would be the most appropriate place? --coldacid (talk|contrib) 02:23, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I've created a history section which I've placed after Contests. I'm not sure that's the most appropriate place for it, however, but I'm open to suggestions for a better location in the article. Most of the content for the section was appropriated from the article on Ralph C. Smedley, but with changes to improve readability. --coldacid (talk|contrib) 05:25, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I propose to add in the history section the old logo, because the old logo is still present in a lot of places, hence has somehow an enciclopedic value, for the history section. Laurusnobilis (talk) 21:50, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Examples
Could you give examples of relevant persons (such as having their own Wikipedia article) that have been toastmasters? Preferably people known for public speaking and who learnt their skill at the club. --Error (talk) 16:48, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Sources for improving this article (Start November 2012)
This section is for the collecting of source information to help develop this article further. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 22:07, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * This is the original Orange Coast Magazine essay cited in this article. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 22:59, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * This is the original Orange Coast Magazine essay cited in this article. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 22:59, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Bad links in notes
Several of the links in the 'Notes' section give error messages. The need to be check for the correct locations of the information. 98.209.155.34 (talk) 03:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I fixed up all the broken URLs. MikeRaffety (talk) 15:04, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

The average club...
In the Clubs section is the statement "The average club has approximately twenty members, and six of the seven officer positions filled". How was this determined? Does this mean a mathematical average, e.g. some clubs have 30 members and others have 10 so they average out to 20? If what is meant is "The typical club has approximately 20 members" then are there any references to back up this claim? Likewise, are there any references to back up the statement that the typical club has six of seven officer positions filled? If not then I think this entire sentence should be removed. Orestgtd (talk) 04:03, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

The average number of members is readily calculated from published statistics; look at the fact box at the top right, "over 292,000 members; over 14,350 clubs". That's 292,000 / 14,350 = 20.35 (and comes from their fact sheet, http://www.toastmasters.org/factsheet). The number of club officer positions filled is almost certainly conjecture, as no one outside of WHQ would have that data. It's likely what someone observed in their own district. MikeRaffety (talk) 14:20, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Gutted article!!!
just gutted 90% of the article. Why is history promotional!?! Tom Ruen (talk) 03:21, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
 * See WP:COIN. Wikipedia requires reliable, independent, secondary sources. The entire article was built from affiliated sources. TMI websites, books by Smedley, press releases. The result is inherently promotional. Please do feel free to rebuild using independent sources but remember to exclude obvious PR. That is a challenge for this group as it engages in a lot of PR. Guy (Help!) 08:13, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I suggest in future instead of blanking almost an entire article, first try and improve it. If you think it is promotional or self-sourced, then make it neutral and find better sources. If not, add some maintenance tags with some main points that need fixing in the talk page. Deleting everything is just pure laziness. If it was COPYVIO I would understand but you've not provided a source to back that up. This borderlines on vandalism. I'm rather disappointed that this came from a veteran user, especially an admin. As per WP:IMPROVE:
 * Fix problems if you can, flag or remove them if you can't. Preserve appropriate content. As long as any facts or ideas would belong in an encyclopedia, they should be retained in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. UaMaol (talk) 19:42, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yup, that's exactly what I did. Guy (Help!) 19:51, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I have been looking at this article for some months and likewise wondering if there were any reliable sources cited. The basis of Wikipedia is the summarization of reliable source. If we have no source material, we have no content for articles.
 * For a public speaking organization Toastmasters seems to have a long history of being media shy. At the least it is not easy to find third-party publications about this organization online. If someone wanted to develop the article I think that a good first step would be to write them and ask them for citations or copies to journalism or research attention which they might have gotten.  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  12:26, 2 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I just saw this and now realize qhy the article was so puzzlingly short. User:Tomruen, User:Uamaol, the proper response here is to create a good article using WP:RS.  Blue Raspberry's assertion that sources are scarce is absurd.  There has been INDEPTH coverage in reliable media for decades.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:28, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I will again confirm that I checked the deleted sources and agree that they do not meet Wikipedia's reliable source standard. I did a Google search for other sources. I do not see in depth coverage anywhere, either in this article after ~10 years or online.
 * This does not seem to be an organization which has sought to establish a third-party media presence since the advent of Internet.
 * Gregory, can you demonstrate otherwise? Show some sources.  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  00:49, 13 June 2018 (UTC)