Talk:Tobermore/Archives/2010/July

Killed or Murdered
This is directed to user's Derry Boi and Gaillimh.

In relation to the current killed/murdered debate, i'll ask for an end to the reverting of murdered to killed changes, and for the matter to be sorted out here in the talk page where it should be.

I'll also ask Gaillimh the same as i asked of Derry Boi:

If there was a concensus that all deaths due to the Troubles had to listed as killed, as Derry Boi says there was on my talk page, then provide me the article stating this standard and it will be listed as killed on this page. Otherwise it will stay as murdered as murdered is the correct term meaning "unlawfully killed".

If you continue to persist changing this without providing me the proof as i've requested then i will seek admin advice on the matter.

Mabuska 17:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi there! Hopefully we'll be able to come to an amicable resolution here on the talk page, but if at any point that you feel that our discourses are failing, please feel free to seek dispute resolution at any time!  I'm not sure of any consensus with regards to how deaths are to be described in the Troubles, but during a war, it seems that all deaths should read "killed", as each side felt that the deaths were indeed lawful.   gaillimh  Conas tá tú? 20:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi! Point noted. However just because one side felt it was lawful does not make it lawful. The Troubles was not a conventional war, and killings by paramilitary/terrorist groups does not make their actions lawful, even if their own dogma's make it so. And though each side felt that their killings where "lawful", they'd no doubt view killings by their enemies as murder. So the whole thing is a mess of POV's.


 * However there is one thing we should be able to agree on: during the Troubles whenever a paramilitary was arrested for attempting to kill someone, they where tried for "attempted murder", in otherwords an unlawful killing. Seeing as that was the term used in the courts, then we should be able to conclude that if they had succeeded in killing that person(s) then it'd be classified as murder. Mabuska 22:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, ok. Your estimation is indeed correct in my eyes.   gaillimh  Conas tá tú? 23:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Cheers :-) Mabuska 22:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

UVF Support
By Harry knight: "The UVF is believed to have considerable support in Tobermore and flags supporting the terror group have been seen flying in the village."

There is no fact to substantiate the first part of this statement. And flags being flown do not mean everyone endorses them. Most flags nowadays erected in Northern Ireland are by the minority of people in the villages and towns of Ulster.

There have been IRA/INLA/UDA/UVF flags flown in Desertmartin, Maghera, Swatragh and the rest of the country, i don't see statements in their articles as to this being so. Do you have any citations such as from published articles to backup this statement?

Mabuska 22:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

As an update on the flag issue, there is only one UVF flag that has flown in Tobermore for the past few years and if anyone looks at it they will clearly see the year 1912 marked on it clearly indicating that it a flag of the original UVF that became the 36th Ulster Division. The UVF terror group wouldn't come into being for at least another 50 years so its hardly dedicated to them.

People like Harry Knight should be more aware of what an actual flag represents and more careful before stating it belongs to a terror group when it doesn't but instead is a remembrance flag for the brave Ulstermen who fought in World War I.

Mabuska (talk) 18:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Cromwell
Are you sure that Cromwellian forces were at Drumbally Hill in 1651? I thought they were in Scotland at the time. I have a relative who owns that hill and I am just checking for family history. Please reply to <- this was an email address ->@btinternet.com !!!
 * According to the Sperrin Tourism initiative of whatever its called they where. But then again Cromwell's forces would have been all over the nation protecting/consolidating etc. etc.
 * The above comment was by me but i forgot to sign it when i posted it. I've also removed the comment above that's email address to prevent email harvesting programs and nasty gits from getting it and spamming it. Mabuska 14:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Gaelic Sports
Seeing as Tobermore doesn't even have any Gaelic clubs or anything and since VintageKits wants a citation for it, i suppose there's no need to have the section at all as theres no written documentation to state if there is or isn;t one. If Tobermore has a GAA club then someone else can add it with such proof - which VintageKits you and me both know won't happen as there isn't one ;-). Mabuska 20:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Demographic changes
No point keeping it anymore so no disagreement with that removal VintageKits. As most immigrants moved in after the 2001 census, just have to wait till the 2011 census :-P Mabuska 20:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Tobermore and WWI
Would pictures from wall plaques in a church classify as proof VintageKits? Mabuska 20:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Its not up to me, please read WP:RS, I am sure you can find its referenced in some book.--Vintagekits 20:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well reading the fine print on the fact tag, unverifible content MAY be removed. So would a listing of people who served and died in WWI (with picture proof which i know isn't wikipedia legit but still is proof outside of wikipedia) be contentious and deserving of removal? Its not like i'm sticking something inflammatory in the article and i have seen many Irish republican articles that don't cite sources for all of their "facts" but i haven't seen you pull up any fact tags on them as of yet (if you have done so before and show me where then i'll happily accept my wrong :-) ). Mabuska 01:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Soccer section.
Think this article has the making of a fine article, but I think there's just too much information on the page, to the point where it looks untidy. For one I think the section on Tobermore United could be vastly reduced. I think the soccer section could simply be redued to


 * Tobermore United play in the Irish First Division. The club play their home games at Fortwilliam Park.
 * Desertmartin F.C., from the nearby village of Desertmartin, play their home matches on Tobermore's council pitch.

I feel the info on George Best, the youth development, the pitch upgrading, promotion, NW intermediate cup and NW senior cup would be better suited on the actual Tobermore United page. Opinions? Derry Boi 08:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that there is a bit too much information on the page especially on Tobermore United which has its own article, however if you delete segments of the section at least ensure they are in the Tobermore United article so they aren't lost so to speak. I'll work on it this week, need to do some tidying to the article anyway, some section spacing blips etc.


 * And thank you for entering into a discussion on the topic, appreciated. Mabuska 23:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, no problem. Derry Boi 02:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Page Tidying
Well DerryBoi i've somewhat tidied the page up and condensed a couple of bits down hopefully making it look easier to read. I've also vastly reduced the Tobermore United section. I know it still contains bits on George Best and those trophies Tobermore won, but all into one small paragraph rather than the several paragraphs it once was.

Do you have any other suggestions? I for one would like to place back into the article the following:


 * Tobermore and World War I
 * During World War I, 125 men from Tobermore served, with 27 being killed (see image to right). The most notable casualty being the death of 8-year old Bobbie Wisner, who was killed on 2 January 1915, and buried with full military honours (see image to right). Whilst too young to be a soldier in the British army, being a messenger for them instead.

I don't find such a section as contentious as VintageKits did. However i've just found that picture sources can be accepted as long as the source of the picture is provided http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Images, meaning a book with pictures of church plaques containing the names of those who fought in WWI and a large painting dedicated to those who fought can be used as evidence.

I know there is no written evidence that Bobbie Wisner was a messenger in the army, however stating the reality that he was would clear up any misunderstandings people would have thinking an 8 year old boy was a soldier in the front line instead. If needs be, leave Bobbie Wisner out of it altogether??

Mabuska 12:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as you have failed to respond in over 2 months i'm assuming you have no objections to it then. Mabuska 13:26, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Article Restructuring
I'm in the process of restructuring the page to fit more in the style of high graded Wiki articles rather than having everything divided into sub-sections. Going to add more pictures, including historical, and see if i can get it pushed to an A grading if possible. Mabuska (talk) 01:06, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well lots of restructuring done - think most of the independant sections that i've moved into the three "history" sections works well, and is laid out chronologically as best as possible. Have to find somewhere to re-input stuff which has now been left out - possibly under a new section "Other Notable Areas". Would dearly love to do something about the townlands section, its too long but other than sticking it in a new article what can be done??? I seem monologue a lot here lol. Northern Star (talk) 23:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Things to do
Things to do for this article to improve it or expand it:
 * Cut down on article length without losing information - done thanks to Kilcronaghan article
 * Get information and sources for some of Tobermores national businesses, the Saville Row company prior to moving to Castledawson, Cunningham Covers prior to moving to Maghera, and the ever-expanding UK-wide Tobermore Concrete and its multitude of awards.
 * Add the toxic-fume incident that forced everyone to have to stay indoors caused by a fire in Tobermore Concrete in the last decade.
 * Add in details of the old lake that was filled in just over 50/60 years ago and made into Mill Park. Add in associated map from the 1850's which clearly shows the lake and associated mills.
 * Revamp the early history section with the addition of my sources for it.
 * Revamp the education section.
 * Get more sources for the Moyola river flood of 2008 and maybe give its own section in the modern history section as it stands out as a major incident in its own right.
 * Add local religion section and main religious houses of Tobermore.
 * Main activities in Tobermore including the successful annual "Fun Day".
 * Expand Ballynahone Bog section - have more sourced information to add in when i get time and a picture

Pictures to get

 * Of old parish church in Mormeal. - Completed
 * The 1800s map of Tobermore and Fortwilliam House. - Completed
 * Harry Gregg - Completed
 * Picture of 12th July procession - thanks Ardfern!


 * Electoral divison map - Completed
 * Magherafelt & Mid-Ulster District Council maps - Completed
 * Picture of current parish church to placce alongside old parish church.
 * Pictures of the notable peoples.
 * Of river Moyola - flooded and normal.
 * Picture of Tobermores WWI Roll of Honour.
 * Better picture of Tobermore main street for the infobox.
 * Picture of Tobermore when its covered in its 12th July bunting
 * Picture of the Tobermore local band for band section.
 * The 1800s map of where Calmore Castle lay.
 * Picture of one of the old earthen mounds for the fortifications section.
 * Picture of Tobermore and Blackhill Primary Schools for the primary school section.
 * Picture of Ballynahone Bog for its section.
 * Picture of remnants of Fortwilliam Rath.
 * Pictures of local churches for a religion section.

Phonetic pronounciation
The phonetic pronounciation or whatever its called added into the article for anyones information comes from help i asked for from those knowledged in it on this page - IPA for English#IPA help. Mabuska (talk) 17:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Samuel Millar
Why this keeps getting added in by anonymous IPs i don't understand (three times already:
 * Samuel Millar (71), abducted 14 January 1976, confirmed dead 21 September 1977. A civilian, Samuel was killed by members of the UDA - Found beaten to death in quarry, Carmean, near Moneymore, County Londonderry. Witness to a robbery.

TOBERmore and MONEYmore are two different places seperated by at least 10 miles! The source does't even mention Tobermore at all in regards to Samual Millar - CAIN only gives three entries for Tobermore and they are all listed. Anymore of this and i'll have tor equest semi-protection from IPs. Mabuska (talk) 10:11, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Although Samuel Millar's body was found in Moneymore, he lived in Blackhill near Tobermore and was abducted from his home when he came upon a robbery on his farm. It was an important event at the time because of his disappearance. It is believed that he was killed on or shortly after the incident and the body disposed of in at least two other locations, before it was eventually found in the the quarry at Carmean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roddy Burns (talk • contribs) 11:18, 28 June 2010 (UTC)


 * A verifiable source for such contentious claims is required for them to be included. Wikipedia works on material backed up by verifiable sources not truth as made clear here (i know its silly at times but thats the way it is). You also aren't allowed to add in original research. There are additions i want to make to the article but without verifiable sources i have to omit them. Also even if he did live in Blackhill, which side? The Tobermore end or the Draperstown end? It lies virtually in the middle and whilst it is regarded largely as being part of Tobermore by its residents, some Blackhill addresses are listed as Draperstown as thats where it is closer to - thats why a verifiable source is even more important as his death may belong in the Draperstown article.
 * By using the CAIN source used for the other three entries to back up the statement which doesn't even state that the person is from Tobermore is also misleading. Did you even check the source? His name is given as Miller not Millar. If you have a verifiable source that can be checked out to prove he was from Blackhill, Tobermore then i'd have no problems with its addition. However a quick scan over the internet and i've found none so far. Mabuska (talk) 13:11, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Infact as his death happened in Moneymore it can be added to that article if you wish as it is sourced by CAIN's Index of Death. Mabuska (talk) 17:46, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Intro
I'm the guy whose expanded the stub for Tobermore, didn't have an account when i started it.

Thanks Ardfern for adding links to words etc, appreciated. However some "facts" on Tobermore of which i am a resident i removed last time due to the fact they weren't correct. As for example:

"Tobermore has won several ’Best Kept Village’ awards in recent years."

This is incorrect and i'm removing it once again. I'm replacing it with the actual years Tobermore won as well as the amount of times.

Mabuska 12:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Yesterday added sources for many parts of the article after getting my hands on them. Improved and expanded the Calmore Castle section and the population sections. Mabuska 18:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Over use of quotes
I feel that this article makes over use of quotations and editor should maybe read WP:QUOTE and say what they think? None of them really improve the article and some are complete irrelevant. Bjmullan (talk) 19:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Please elaborate and detail specifically these quotations that don't improve the article and are completly irrelevant and we'll see what can be done.
 * I do admit though it appears i need to format a wheen of the inline ones properly.
 * However you can't complain that any quote isn't attribuated to a verifiable source. Mabuska (talk) 19:28, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm cutting down on a wheen of the quotation marks used and de-italicising the rest where appropriate. There does indeed appear a few too many in the history section. Mabuska (talk) 19:44, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Mabuska, great article but is the John Taylor and Alexander Carson quotes anything to do with Tobermore? And I can't find any information on the Union Cruiser at any of the other mentioned town's artciles. A mention of the song seems fine but do we need to include the verse? Bjmullan (talk) 22:02, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The Alexander Carson one i can agree with and have moved the quote to the Alexander Carson article.
 * The other two i believe are relevant as the John Taylor quote is a quote of speech he made in Tobermore and helps depict the sense of hardline sentiment felt at the time in Tobermore with such speeches made. The Union Cruiser verse given shows the context to which Tobermore is depicted, and as there is no other Wiki article at present for the song it'd be nice to show the reader the context. Lack of mention on the other articles is not a case for removal.
 * However what about removing the lyrics from Dunlavin Green? For doing a quick check on articles to do with songs and singles and i don't see any others providing the lyrics - except of Wikisource. In fact i'm currently uploading the Union Cruiser to Wikisource and will link to it from the article. I think it might be better for Dunlavin Green if the same is done to it. Mabuska (talk) 11:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There the article follows the manual of style for quotes and when to use them a lot better than it did. Some stuff has been paraphrased, other things with quotations marks that weren't quotations have either had them removed or changed to italics to emphasise or mark out the first occurance of a name, for example The Constitution newspaper. Mabuska (talk) 13:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Mabuska, I think the changes have improved the article. It has a more encyclopaedic feel to it. As I said before it's a good article and I can see you have put a lot of effort into it. Sorry for the minimal input from me but I'm on hols with a very bad internet connection :) Bjmullan (talk) 12:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm planning on getting a peer review of the article done at some stage. I want to get it beyond a B rating and believe it deserves a higher rating, and maybe a little extra help i can get it to featured or good article status. To cut down on the length of the article i had to create the Kilcronaghan article which needed created anyways and move all the history of the surrounding area whihc related to it into it.
 * Pity few others seem to try as hard to get as much of the forgotton and unknown history etc. of their hometowns online - if they can find them even. There is some remarkable forgotton history out there for some places. It does take a lot of hard work to find information too such as i've had to dig deep for the Tobermore and Kilcronaghan articles. Mabuska (talk) 12:19, 28 July 2010 (UTC)