Talk:Toe the line

Untitled
"So one who "toes the line" is one who does not allow his foot to stray over the line." looks like it came from http://www.grammartips.homestead.com/toetheline.html (i.e. it's an exact match, mixed genders included), which purports to be written in 2003 (before this article). I suppose it's not enought to be plagiarism, though? BenBildstein 04:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It's really too bad that whoever wrote that article is at least half wrong, as is this article. There are two distinct phrases:  "Toe the line", which is similar to chomping at the bit, or "tow the line" which is to further a cause. --Tellybelly 16:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid you haven't read the article too well - "toe the line" means "to conform rigorously to a rule or standard" (Merriam-Webster), not to "chomp at the bit." "Toe .." appears in both the Oxford and Merriam-Webster dictionaries, "tow .." does not. I think it would be very hard to argue that "tow .." is anything more than a misspelling, no matter how many etymologies are dreamed up after the fact. --Icd 08:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed, as you suggest Tellybelly, Googling the phrase results in numerous websites indicating the origin of the phrase, toe the line, and that the mispelling/misinterpretation of the phrase, tow the line, is incorrect. I can find no refernce to the "barge theory" mentioned below. JPotter 02:35, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * See also this Wikipedia article: Tired_of_Toeing_the_Line, where the expression clearly is, and always was, "toeing the line".

Alternate meaning?
The way I learned it is that "toeing the line" is almost but not quite crossing the line (risky behavior, for example).


 * Baloney. That meaning is "sticking your nose across the line". Or your finger.98.67.173.152 (talk) 15:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Or - I had heard the origin as something completely different than what is detailed in the entries or discussions. I don't have time to research it more, but will throw it out for the benefit of the discussion.

In college an ancient history prof (and world-renowned scholar/expert, Dr. Paul Maier I believe was his name) taught the origin of the phrase was the Roman Army. He explained that when the legions were preparing to take the field in battle, they formed up in precise ranks and groupings of ranks. These ranks were then precisely maneuvered by the officers to create the fiercest fighting machine known at the time. In order to achieve this, the individual soldiers had to be exactly positioned. To do this, the officers would mark a line in the dirt and order the soldiers to place their toes on the line, or "toe the line". As disobedience was not tolerated in the Roman Army, it came to take on the connotation we know today. The phrase lived on in Britain after the fall of the Roman empire where it was picked up in the local language.

That's what I remember. Perhaps someone knows more, or can run it down further.

Alternate meaning?
After listening at the dinner table to three generations of teachers who come from a line of teachers this is my understanding.

"Toeing the Line" was used in 18th century educational settings by putting a chalk line on the floor where students did their recitations for the day to demonstrate their learning. Since education was expensive thus a privilege a high expectation was set. Reaching the standard and not having poor conduct was included in that expectation, thus "toeing the ine" demonstrated your staying within the societal standards, showing respect for the teacher and learning your lessons.

Other comments welcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gingerword (talk • contribs) 14:40, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Tow
I moved this content from the article to here because it is more of a comment than an addition to the article. --Icd 00:28, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * To "TOW the line"


 * When this phrase came up in a Latin class, back in the 1950's...with a teacher/scholar of old languages including Old English, Greek, Latin, Norse, and several others...our class learned that the expression was to “TOW THE LINE”, as "You have to TOW the line."


 * The story was that it dated back to days when boatmen TOWED barges up and down the canals and rivers for various hauling/shipping companies; that it may have originated in Russia on the Volga river, where indentured slaves and prisoners were often assigned this gruelling job, as they sometimes were in America as well. To TOW the line was usually used as, "You know have to tow the line when you work for these people" or “If you learn to tow the line you’ll get the promotions” (etc.). It meant you would be held to the rules and the task of literally adhering to the companies image and goals and being responsible for making a good impression reflecting that image. "If you work for A-1, you really have to tow the company line." Towing the "company line" was very often the phrase used. It most often referred to rules set down by some company or organization.


 * My illustrious (and somewhat infamous) grandfather was one of those wealthy rogues who used his considerable money and influence to help unionize workers back in the days of the union wars, with old Joe Kennedy, the Roosevelts, a number of distinguished politicos and, yes, mobsters as well. Mobsters often used this line as a warning: "You gotta tow the line, Benny. Ya'know what I mean?" Believe me, I heard them often enough around my grandfather’s dinner table. They were not talking about some nebulous "toeing" of any line. You can bet on that. The phrase was used in old movies about gangsters, hard-nosed robber-barons, and Eliot Ness types of the early 20th century. I saw one such film back in the early 60's and managed to get a script copy to do a performance of it in our theatre group. (That was from start to finish a comic calamity that no one ever forgot!)  The phrase “tow the line” was repeated several times, almost like a litany, in this dark comedy.


 * I don’t know when or where the phrase took on the wimpy use of “toeing the line” (?), which really means nothing, no matter how hard you try. It’s no wonder you haven’t been able to find a source for it. It is easy to figure, in these times when “towing the company line” is not as heroic as it once was and younger people would be loath to take on such a task (though they often do just that). I know it’s hard for people who have firmly settled on “toeing the the line” to have to face really “towing the line”, a very different chore indeed. But for those who like to search such things out and verify them, this is a good goose hunt for you. Or was that a turkey shoot? I guess you have to know what you’re hunting before you can find it. Bon chance!


 * 062606
 * Vera Melogn
 * vermillionwatermelon@gmail.com


 * My thoughts exactly. Especially in the sense of "tow the party line."  This is one of those phrases that is nearly always on those lists of commonly misused phrases.  See, , etc.  Aw, heck, just Google it, people!  --Tellybelly 16:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Such a pointlessly detailed fabrication, what's next tow-t that bale? For a start you tow a barge not a line, secondly your teacher and your vague recollections of a movie is laughable as a reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.44.248 (talk) 04:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * 83.70.44.248 - I live not too far from the track of the Delaware & Hudson (D&H) Canal and have many relatives who were lockmen, boatmen, and towers through the 1800s. The barge (called boats on the D&H) were pulled through the canal by heavy lines tied on the boat that were attached to mules, ridden commonly by small children. It was very hard and exhausting work that a number of children died from after falling off the mules from fatigue. It has to do with pulling a great weight, doing what you are told even to the point of exhaustion. Towing a party line or a religious line or any other philosophical line is hard work done by people who are doing as they are told by their fellows.


 * Although Vera's comments are germane to the discussion, they are certainly not article-worthy as written. Removing them because of the writing and format is entirely appropriate. Thank you for your time. Wordreader (talk) 16:28, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Hmm. Well pretty soon there maybe a common usage argument for preferring 'Tow', as most people use that. 65.24.75.114 (talk) 14:42, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. After all, how do idioms come into existence in the first place but through popular usage? It's why I find the hardline attitudes of some of the people posting on this page somewhat odd -- idioms are one of the most mutable and flexible things there are in language in the first place. If there are people saying "tow the line," and in doing so are thinking of a big heavy something being towed with a rope-like line (and thus imply a different image from the traditional "toe the line" from which the "tow" phrase derives)... well, at some point it's probably a legitimate idiom in its own right, isn't it?
 * Granted, I'm not saying it's gotten to that point just yet, but it's certainly interesting to consider that it might someday. DarkLaith (talk) 08:33, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I have to somewhat agree with Vera Melogn. My father, my mother, and my grandfather all heard it as "Towing the line" growing up. I was born in 1965, my father in 1919, my mother in 1921, and my grandfather in the 1870's. I asked them about this back in the 1970's if I recall. The meaning they gave, as used in a sentence was; "You will help tow the line", meaning one was to help pull their own weight.

From what I have read on the Internet, people have given a possibility of the term, quoted as such, from around 1950, and possibly derived from the UK House of Parliament, but I can assure you, it was around in the US way before that. The other possibilities they give do not match the meaning, including toeing the cracks on the floor boards of a ship. As a matter of fact, about every place it is now used, it is used wrong.

The term most likely came from pulling, or towing, the large ropes used to secure ships, or by dragging large ropes by dock workers. To be very honest, only recently have I read the term "toeing the line" in greater usage, as in older books, etc., the term was "towing the line". On the docks, large ropes are dragged to capstans, and the capstans are used to wind up the rope and pull in a large ship close to the dock. Yes, in fact, you do literally "Tow" the line.

One should watch where they get their information, including supposed "correct" sources on the Internet, and even books or dictionaries now in print, as they were written and edited by a much younger generation than the elder generations that used and coined these terms or "idiom's" we now still hear. As a matter of fact, if some would read some of the older literature from the early 20th century, they would find the term in correct usage.--Craxd (talk) 22:04, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

The stories above, while plausible, do not seem to be cited in any WP:RS that I have found to date. If you have one that does. please add it to the article. NealeFamily (talk) 04:42, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I would also say Vera Melogn could be partially correct.

My understanding of the origins of the phrase "tow the line" also involves barges. Before mechanical engines horse were used to tow barges along canals. The path along side the canal was referred to as the rope walk or tow path. After years of service the horses would follow the path without veering off line. Therefore to follow the route without straying would be towing the line. TheHamburger (talk) 13:42, 21 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Then you need to come up with a reliable sourse as all with have here is a list of recollections, with the earliest being in the 1950's, while "toe the line" can be found in publications back to the early 1800s. NealeFamily (talk) 02:01, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Frankly, I believe that “Tow the Line” is and always has been the correct phrase, and “Toe the Line” is the “eggcorn” that goes back to the 1800’s. I also agree to “watch where your information comes from”. Younger generations notoriously change things to suit their own ignorance, especially in our present day. It’s just one of several reasons why Wikipedia is often such an unreliable resource.2604:2000:6A54:4800:CD35:4594:6CDD:841B (talk) 12:23, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Also "Not Towing/Toeing the line" is often used as an accolade. e.g. "He objected to the war and got dismissed from the government for not towing the line."

If it really is toeing the line then many people are is using it wrong. You can imagine not towing a line because you don't think that boat should be moving foe some reason. But toeing the line at the start of a race is good form and anyone who doesn't do it is cheating. 62.4.41.105 (talk) 02:06, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

1831
The Atheneum or Spirit of the English Magazines. Vol. 1 (April to October, 1831). Boston: Kane & Co. (1831). p. 188: "The master, therefore, necessarily became rather serious; and the whol gang of us being sent for on the quarter deck, we were ranged in a line, each with his toes at the edge of a plank, acording to the orthodox fashion of these gregarious scoldings, technically called 'toe-the-line matches'."

Most reference seem to be derived from the way sailors line up&mdash;including this one from 1831. KeepNoArgue (talk) 03:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Weasel Words?
This is tagged as having weasel words. It's not readily apparent what that tag refers to. I'd be happy to do some cleanup, if someone can point me in the right direction, or perhaps it's referring to old content. Any thoughts, folks? Nursebootsy (talk) 02:42, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Weasel words means that the text is not written as factual, and it's meaning or content can be easily "weaseled" out of. It would be better to speak to someone old and learned before this article is updated. By old, I mean someone in their 80's or 90's.--Craxd (talk) 22:10, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

The lines in the British House of Commons
Robert Rogers, a senior Commons official, has written on many an occassion that the origins of the phrase 'to toe the line' certainly don't come from the British House of Commons. Firstly, Members of Parliament were never allowed to carry swords in the Chamber, only the Serjeant-at-Arms wears a sword in the Chamber. Indeed, to this very day there are loops of pink ribbon in the Members' cloakroom for MPs to hang up their swords. Secondly, there weren't any lines in the Chamber in the days that gentlemen carried swords. The origins are most likely to come from the Royal Navy when barefooted seamen had line up along the seams in the deck planking for inspection. See both Robert Rogers and Rhodri Walters, How Parliament Works, 6th ed (Longman, 2006), p. 14 and Robert Rogers, Order! Order!: A Parliamentary Miscellany (London: JR Books, 2009), p. 27 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.126.183 (talk) 14:41, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Sword-strapped (Origins paragraph)
Can someone define what this means? A phyisical or metaphorical phrase? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ginister (talk • contribs) 22:36, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sword strapped means someone who is wearing a sword in its holder as opposed to carrying it in ones hand. Not sure of the origin, but I am sure Oxford or some such source would have its origin NealeFamily (talk) 19:02, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Origins vs Etymology
Why are there both an Origins section and an Etymology section, and why do they contradict each other so completely? 81.101.197.228 (talk) 20:18, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Too much about the sports application
Greetings!

Upon reading this article, the "Modern usage" section dedicates one sentence that gives an example of one usage of this phrase, and then the entirety of the rest of this section is dedicated to the phrase in terms of athletics and sports.

That seems to be a bit too much about that one side. In fact, after reading through this whole article, I frankly don't have much of an idea as to what the phrase means in terms of partisan politics.

Would someone like to come in to update this article to expand upon that meaning? If not, I may put some effort into doing so next month or something. JaykeBird (talk) 06:39, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Tow, Not Tow
Tow means to pull. We must all pull together. We must pull or tow the line. A party line is not a tow line, but the need for expending energy could be. Pulling one's weight, or pulling in synchronous, is synonymous with towing the line. Not toeing the line. Longinus876 (talk) 12:49, 3 August 2022 (UTC)