Talk:Toilets in Japan/Archive 1

Quick to FA status
Note: At the time of its featuring, Japanese toilet set a new speed record from creation to featuring, created 09:45, 8 Oct 2004, featured article candidate on 02:36, 12 Oct 2004, and featured on 22:22, 18 Oct 2004, in a span of 10 days, 12 hours and 37 minutes! Since then, a few articles overtook the record, namely Kreutz Sungrazers and Pioneer Zephyr (see Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates). -- Chris 73 Talk 06:55, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC) - Bravo all and everyone, I just have a point, I see "an user" should it be "a user"? u is a tricky one, its like h, they switch in grammar, "an hour" and "a user"... but I'm not the smartest one on the block so I'll leave the correction choice up to others! ciao ---random user---

This is my favourite page in the whole wikipedia. Thank you for creating it. (User:80.3.160.4)

I agree. Great article. Simon A. 08:25, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * This article is simply great. Can I bring my laptop computer to the toilet to finish reading it? Could someone create an article about Roman toilet that describes the public toilets in ancient Rome? -- Toytoy 14:44, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

the best article ever (User:68.158.189.118)

I've decided to nominate it as a featured article candidate. Yelyos 02:36, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliments. Those things are not only interesting, but - believe me - once you get used to the idea of a toilet splashing back, you'll never want to live without one again. I am already worried what I will do when I get back to my barbaric and uncivilized home country (Germany) where you have to wipe your own a... ;-) -- Chris 73 Talk 05:40, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Squat toilets ain't "Asian" per se...
...nor are sit-down toilets "Western" per se. Squat toilets, though of a slightly different design, were seemingly still the most common kind of toilets in France when I went there as a child in the early 1980s. I've heard the same about Southern European countries. -- 84.57.39.129 22:59, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Correct, as stated on Squat toilet. However, the european (Arabian?) and asian squat toilets differ. I have added The asian style squat toilet differs from the western style squat toilet (see squat toilet) as the user faces towards the toilet to the article fo clarification. Same for the western toilet, I added The standard flush toilet used worldwide is known in Japan as Western style toilet. for clarification. Thanks for pointing that out. -- Chris 73 Talk 01:25, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

Literal translation for "benjo"
The first character in the word, &#20415;, means "excrement" by itself and I thought that's the meaning this character's used for here. So I've changed the literal translation accordingly, but it seems to have been reverted; Korath, are you sure the literal meaning is "place of convenience?" -- Jun Inoue 01:22, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * According to my dictionary you're both right: &#20415;, "ben"-reading: convenience, facility, excreta, stools, evacuation. If there is a cultural connection between convenience and excreta/stools, maybe it would be interesting to mention it in the article. Anybody knows the details? -- Chris 73 Talk 01:45, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm the one who originally added the "place of convenience" translation, but I'd like to withdraw it; I've changed "convenience" back to "excrement." Nihon Kokugo Daijiten, the largest historical dictionary of Japanese, clearly defines &#20415;&#25152; as &#22823;&#20415;&#12289;&#23567;&#20415;&#12434;&#12377;&#12427;&#12392;&#12371;&#12429; (very literally: a place where one makes "big excrement" (feces) and "small excrement" (urine)). Tomgally 11:51, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Someone today changed "excrement" back to "convenience"; I suspect that "convenient place" is a folk etymology, so I have made yet another revision, this time listing both putative etymologies. Tomgally 08:52, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * "Excrement" is NOT the correct definition. You should investigate the etymology of the character itself, not try to guess what it means from other compounds.  Henshall gives the following etymology: "Person and change更 acting phonetically as servant and lending idea of "bring about result". Originally "efficient servant", later _service_ and then _convenience_. As with english it euphemisticly refers to bodily waste. Mail from service/servant."


 * Please also reference the unicode spec and see that it doesn't have a meaning of excrement in either Chinese or Japanese.

http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=4fbf


 * Etymology does not determine meaning; usage determines meaning. Please look up 便（べん） in any reasonably sized Japanese-Japanese dictionary, and you will see that one of the definitions is 「大小便．特に大便」（三省堂国語辞典）. This meaning of 便 can also be seen in such everyday expressions as 便が硬い and 便が緩い, which refer to excrement, not to convenience. (The Unicode specification, by the way, is not intended to be a dictionary of Japanese; the glosses it gives of characters are only for the sake of--ahem--convenience.) Tomgally 08:19, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Need to distinguish "toilet room" from "toilet device"?
There's been a lot of back-and-forth on the Japanese words for "toilet," but one point seems to have been missed: Some words, like toire, can refer either to the room where the toilet is installed or to the toilet device itself (bowl, tank, etc.), while others refer only to the room (otearai, benjo). There's also the word &#20415;&#22120; (benki), which means only the toilet device. If other contributors think it would be useful, I'll be happy to rewrite that section, distinguishing the meanings and adding any other words I can find. Any objections? Tomgally 12:02, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Please, go ahead. Any contributions welcome! -- Chris 73 Talk 12:27, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and made various changes and additions. Since the section got rather long and is a bit peripheral to the main focus of the article, I created a new section titled "Terminology" and moved it to the end of the article, before "Miscellaneous." Tomgally 10:59, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Cool. Looks great! I just expanded the lead section a bit, since it now got quite short in comparison to the article. -- Chris 73 Talk 12:57, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

&#28201;&#27700;&#27927;&#27972;&#20415;&#24231;
Washlets (&#12454;&#12457;&#12471;&#12517;&#12524;&#12483;&#12488;) are also called &#28201;&#27700;&#27927;&#27972;&#20415;&#24231; (lit. warm water washing (cleansing) toilet seats?). But I don't know its proper translation in English. FYI. Mulukhiyya 12:00, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info, I added that to the article. -- Chris 73 Talk 12:28, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * Isn' Washlet a brand name of the Toto Corporation? User:Calton


 * Yes, but it is by now a synonym for the entire product. This may be similiar to e.g. Kleenex or scotch tape, which are also brand names but are commonly used for generic products. -- Chris 73 Talk 00:49, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, copyright lawyers would disagree with you, especially the ones at 3M. --Calton 00:36, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep!

The intro
Chris, just a quick comment: the intro says something about "most advanced high-tech toilets worldwide". I'll leave it up to your judgement whether this is factually correct. I'd just like to point out a few points: Great work, though! Lupo 21:30, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * 1) Toilets with a built-in bidet and a blow-dryer are not uncommon in Switzerland and have been marketed since 1979 ("Geberit-O-Mat", named after the company Geberit, a mid-1980s model was called "Propomat"). Other features include built-in ventilators with activated carbon filters to avoid unpleasant smells... Likewise, self-cleaning toilet seats have been on the market in Switzerland also since 1979 (first product was named "Geberella"). The sales department for these toilets is called Balena; see there for current models.
 * 2) In Switzerland, toilets with built-in bidets are primarily used in private homes and hospitals; only few rental apartments have them. Self-cleaning toilet seats are relatively common in hospitals, good restaurants, and similar public institutions. Admittedly the most commmon type of flush toilet is still the "normal" one without either of these features.
 * 3) Even if it should turn out that Japanese toilets are currently "the most advanced high-tech toilets worldwide", this may not be true forever. Maybe you can rephrase the sentence such that it is less prone to becoming obsolete...
 * Good points, Lupo. I changed the text in the intro and history section, and also added more info about switzerland to the economics section. I read somewhere that Toto also got the idea from the US. Thanks for the details. Please make any changes you see necessary. -- Chris 73 Talk 12:59, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

Great article
This is one of Wikipedia's true gems. I made some small edits for readability, but I couldn't understand what this sentence was saying:
 * "Despite all the cleanliness of the modern toilet, the toilet area is traditionally considered dirty, and while Japanese routinely eat or sleep on the tatami mattress, nobody would do so in a toilet."

Is it saying that the Japanese will not eat in their toilets??? I would have reworded it, but I don't understand the sentence.


 * I read that to mean that the Japanese will not eat in what Americans euphemistically call "the bathroom"; i.e., the word "toilet" in that senetence refers not to the device, but the room it's housed in. User:Calton

I think the terminology section should come after the historical section (or somewhere near the beginning), instead of near the end. It might help the reader understand the article better.

Do we need the see also links if they have already been mentioned in the article?

Also, for some reason I was expecting a bigger punch at the end. The whole article had a fascinating (and sometimes gross) sense to it, but the end is sort of boring. Of course, this is supposed to be an encyclopedic article, not a magazine one. Dori | Talk 23:36, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * Glad you liked the article, Dori. The sentence you mentioned originates from me, and you're right, that was improvable. I just expanded and reworded that part. I also moved the terminology section to the front, but I would like to keep the links at the end (personal preference). Maybe we can add footnotes? Also, what kind of punch where you thinking about? Anecdotes? Should we move the cultural aspect (more punch?) after the economical aspect? Do you want something on toilet voyeurism? Or are there any open questions? If so, let me know and I will try my best to improve on the text. Thanks for the readability work -- Chris 73 Talk 02:37, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)


 * Nah, don't worry about the punch, just some feeling on my part, nothing wrong with the article. Good work! Dori | Talk 02:13, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

Words fail me. This is exactly the sort of page that makes the world wide web wonderful. :-) Adambisset 19:05, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is by far THE best article on wikipedia I have ever read! Very graphic, extremely detailed (upto the level of toilet use instruction manual!), and humorous! Kudos to all the contributers. Ashish G 19:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Installation of Sound Princesses in Men's Restrooms
At 11:47, 18 Oct 2004 (Japan time), Chris 73 changed "So far there appears to be no demand for these devices for men's public toilets, and the devices are installed in men's restrooms only very rarely." to "...and the devices are almost never installed in men's restrooms" (and remarked "4 years in Japan and I haven't seen a single one"). Two comments: (1) I think "only very rarely" and "almost never" indicate about the same level of (very low) frequency; either is acceptable to me. (2) Just this morning, I happened to use a men's toilet in the main library of the University of Tokyo (Hongo Campus), and there was an Otohime ("Sound Princess") button among the washlet controls. I've also seen separately installed Otohime devices in men's restrooms a handful of times elsewhere in Tokyo--I can't remember where, but I seem to recall it was either one of the fancy new office buildings near Tokyo Station or a restroom in a government building, where equal-rights considerations may have necessitated their installation in men's restrooms as well women's. I will admit, though, that I have never actually heard one being used in a men's restroom. Have any other contributors seen and/or heard the devices in men's restrooms in Japan? Tomgally 07:07, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Question: At the Tokyo university, was the Otohime a separate device, or a button as part of the washlet? So far i have heard only of separate devices. I'll try to make a trip to a Toto showroom someday. -- Chris 73 Talk 07:21, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
 * It was part of the washlet. The washlet control panel was on an arm along the right side of the toilet with the usual buttons for washing, bidet, etc.; the button closest to the front of the toilet was labeled &#38899;&#23019; (otohime). I just checked Toto's Web site but didn't see the same or a similar model; the one I used is probably a few years old. (Doing some Googling in Japanese, I came across a couple of diary entries by men describing their first, surprised encounters with Otohime: here (search down in the page for "&#38899;&#23019;&#20184;&#12365;&#12454;&#12457;&#12471;&#12517;&#12524;&#12483;&#12488;") and here, for example. I was surprised, too, the first time I saw one, about fifteen years ago in a restaurant in Yotsuya, Tokyo; the restroom was for both men and woman, as I recall.) Tomgally 07:49, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. I have added the info to the article, please have a look at the changes. I definitely have to find one of those someday! Major curiosity at work here. -- Chris 73 Talk 08:36, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
 * I tried to make some revisions to the Sound Princess section, but even after several attempts the revisions weren't being reflected in the final page. I also got a message saying that the "Japanese toilet" page was approaching 32 KB in size; does that mean that revisions can no longer be made? (I'm fairly new to Wikipedia, and this is the first time I've encountered this problem.) If the article needs to be split for size reasons, maybe Chris 73 can decide how he would like to do it. For reference, here is the revised version I intended to upload (deleted) Tomgally 10:46, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * This is also the version I can find on the article page, so everything saved correctly. Maybe you clicked "Save page" twice, and got an edit conflict with yourself, i.e. the first click saved the page, and wne the second click tried to save it again, you got the message that someone else (your first click) was changing the section already. About the 32 KB limit: this is a minor problem with older browsers, which cannot handle long edit windows. But i think most people just ignore the advice to split the article, and I certainly would object to a split just because the article is long. If you have any questions or problems with WIkipedia, please feel free to ask me anytime! And I mean that! -- Chris 73 Talk 13:46, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
 * Many thanks! Everything looks okay now. Tomgally 21:03, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Date of Introduction of Sound Princess
The date of introduction of Otohime, etc., was given as "around 1994," but my first encounter with one was considerably earlier. I found the following reference to "Oto Hime" in Time Magazine in 1989, so I changed the wording to "in the 1980s". It would be nice to pin the date down more precisely. Here's the quote: "The hardware gets more impressive every day. There are toilets with vinyl seat covers that can rotate after each use, perfect for a country in which 1 out of 5 women refuses to use a Western-style toilet outside the home. For ladies who do not want to waste water but wish to maintain decorum -- according to TOTO's investigations, women flush an average of 2.5 times per visit to drown out potentially embarrassing or offensive noises -- there is the Oto Hime (Sound Princess), which plays a recording of flushing water. 'We want to change the toilet from a space that one wants to do without to a space where one can relax,' says Fujita spokesman Kazuyuki Kume." (King for a day in a small room with a view. (Japanese high-tech toilets), Time; 2/13/1989; Walsh, Michael) Tomgally 11:47, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I interviewed a manager in a Toto showroom, who told me that the Otohime is around for 10 years (hence 1994). But if the times article dates it earlier, then we'll go with that. -- Chris 73 Talk 23:11, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)
 * Also added the reference to the list. -- Chris 73 Talk 01:00, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

i also think this is a really great article, as well. good job to everyone who contributed. I think this article is proof of how one can write ´great´articles about relatively ordinary subjects - we dont need to have every featured article be about some huge historical movement or wildly influential thinker.

Yeah, that was pretty interesting, but I feel kind of naughty now. Thanks for posting. Wiki rules.

Wow. That's all about a toilet.
I have never seen so much about a toilet. That is several pages, and they all surround a toilet. Not even a toilet, but a Japanese toilet. It's a good article, about a toilet.

Possible line removal.
Since this isn't an article I work on and it was a featured one I figured I'd ask first. In this quote:

''Many Japanese women are embarrassed at the thought that someone else can hear them while they are doing their business on the toilet (though one wonders: what else would someone be doing in a restroom?). To cover the sound of bodily functions, many women flushed public toilets continuously while using them, wasting a large amount of water in the process''

Why is that paranthetical phrase there? It amused me (another reason I didn't remove it) but should it really be in an article? I find it amusing that there is more on Japanese toilets than the Hanafi fiqh :) gren 20:45, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

*NIX?
could anyone confirm if theres a toilet capable of running netbsd or any other highly portable opensource unix? thanks :P (i BET its possible) -dario
 * I've not heard of any per-se. However, you may find this article interesting, if you are interested in making an SNMP-managed toilet. -82.1.178.244 03:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Sewage Day
What on earth is Sewage Day!? There's no article for it. Someone please make this article and when you do leave a comment on my Talk Page. Redwolf24 3 July 2005 08:35 (UTC)

Public Toilets
"Many train stations in the Tokyo area and public schools throughout Japan, for example, only have squat toilets."

Many medium to large public schools will have a Western toilet somewhere in the building for guests, only pupils and staff are expected to use the squat toilets. Also, nearly all other public buildings will have at least one Western toilet available. In my City Hall (in Shimane) there is one on every floor, occasionally leading to a lot of going up and down stairs to find one that is free! Train Stations, on the other hand, are almost invariably squat style. I recommend going before going...

Bathroom
I've replaced "bathroom fixtures" with "sanitary equipment", which is what the Japanese company that manufactures them calls it. I think the mainly American English "bathroom" should be replaced with more "neutral" English if possible to avoid possible confusion. I think using "bathroom" to refer to Japanese toilet rooms is especially inapproriate here as Japanese toilets are always seperate from the "bath". --Yodakii 18:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Another bathroom point. The article states that English (UK and US) uses 'bathroom' as a euphemism for the room with the toilet in. This is untrue, American English certainly does, but British English does not. We say 'toilet' for both the device itself and the room in which it is found and 'bathroom' only if there is a bath (or at least a shower) present. I have edited the article accordingly.GordyB 13:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Reverting 149.130.230.138's edit
User 149.130.230.138 changed the "his" to "her" for "variety" purposes. If this is allowed, people would be switching between "his", "her", and "his or her" all day. Because all three options are perfectly valid, this should always be left as the author wrote it. I know some users might want "his or her" to prevent sexism, but many people find this to be very redundant. Keep in mind many European languages default to masculine, and English is a European language. Again, we could argue about this all day. That is why it should always be left alone as the original author wrote it. Unsuspected 10:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC)