Talk:Tok'ra characters in Stargate

Merge discussion
There is really no need to have individual articles about all of the known Tok'ra. Just use the redirectes to take the users to that part of this article. Lady Aleena 00:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

TOC Big or Little
There is a disagreement on how the Table of Contents should be layed out. I prefer a small one which takes up less screen space and doesn't leave so much white space on the screen as well. The small one is also written into the article not forcing the server to have to generate it. I know that there are other areas on this page which have white space, but the white space elsewhere is not so blinding.

Lady Aleena 08:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I removed the hand-crafted table of contents for two main reasons. Firstly, it had a nonstandard layout that was likely to throw off readers who're used to the regular table of content layout - I myself didn't realize that the box at the top of the page was a table of contents until I'd already skimmed down through the rest of the article, at first I thought it was just an infobox of some sort with links to other articles. And secondly, since it's hand-crafted rather than automatically generated, it has to be re-crafted every time additions are made to the article. It makes it harder to edit the article that way. Generally speaking, I feel it's better to use Wikipedia's built-in formatting and organizational tools because those are much less brittle - they are easier to adapt to new circumstances, for example tables of contents could be hidden when printing an article. Bryan 08:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Here's a reasonably standard option for reducing whitespace: Section. I'll poke around with it and see how it works. Bryan 08:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * TOCright looks okay at the top, but pushes Anise's character infobox way down and results in more whitespace at the bottom of that section instead. TOCleft does much the same but the layout looks worse in the various ways I've tried it, with some of the article text actually overlapping Anise's character infobox. Personally, I think things look best just the way they are - whitespace next to the table of contents is a common thing on Wikipedia, not a really big problem as far as I'm concerned. Bryan 08:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I was about to mention the squeezing problem with the TOC and the Freya infobox, but you beat me to it. Do you know of an internal way of supressing the sub-headings in the TOC? Lady Aleena 08:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Not offhand. It could help a little to remove some of the section headers for one-line sections such as Anise's "trivia" section and Egeria's "mythological information" section, that stuff doesn't really need to be in its own section anyway. But that's not a very big size reduction and the ToC will grow again if more Tok'ra show up and are added (might happen now that Ba'al seems to be trying to get back into the System Lord game). Bryan 08:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Hm. Removing that "mythological information" section made the ToC narrower, and led me to try the TOCleft template again. It actually looks more reasonable this time. I'm going to add it in, let me know how it looks to you. Bryan 08:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm going to try something in hopes of keeping the bulletted list of Anise's episodes together instead of sliding under the TOC. Lady Aleena 08:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * NEVERMIND! Byran, moving the infobox did the trick! It is PERFECT! Lady Aleena 08:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Heh. I just edit-conflicted with this last statement while adding the following:


 * By the way, I apologize for the curtness of the edit summary I used when I started this off - I didn't mean to sound so belittling of the work that went into hand-crafting that original ToC. I tend to do a lot of quick work putting article formatting into more standardized forms when I'm cruising randomly around Wikipedia so it just came off the cuff.

Hopefully I'm forgiven now. :) Bryan 08:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Bryan...I was hoping that we could find an equitable solution, and we did. I am glad that we hashed this out. It was good that we moved the discussion here so that everyone who looks into this little incident will see how Talk pages should work and that they DO work. :) I feel that we work well together. Hopefully, I will see you again on my next Stargate related project here. I have only just begun. Lady Aleena 08:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You probably will, it's one of my favourite shows. :) Bryan 09:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me or is there now a lot of white space below the text because the text is now right of the TOC. Is that intentional? (didn't read all your discussion now) --SoWhy 21:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It is intentional. Lady Aleena 22:42, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I read the discussion about why the TOC is at the left (causing huge amounts of white space to appear at the bottom of the Anise section). But it's wierd and it makes the article confusing (I thought Anise and the whole thing was part of the lead text and the white space meant that the rest of the article was starting).

I think this article should just use the default TOC until there's a good case for it: 1) The TOCLeft was created to improve article layout in cases of long TOCs, and I fail to see how article layout is improved here-- in fact, it's worsened. 2) The TOC is so short that using it seems ridicoulsly unnecessary-- we can deal with such as tiny amount of white space to the right and the article starting a tiny bit later.

P.S. How about we rename the subsection Anise/Freya (since the section is about both Anise *and* Freya) and then move the infobox for Anise/Freya up so that the picture in the infobox represents both the host and the symbiote? It looks like the infobox is jutting out otherwise. Cws125 09:23, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Infobox placement
The original placement of the infobox was under the heading of the host since the host is the person who is pictured. The symbiote who is the Tok'ra is hardly shown, and as far as I know, we have only seen five Tok'ra. The first Tok'ra we actually saw was Selmak in the brief interval between the time Selmak exited Saroosh and entered Jacob. The second Tok'ra that was shown was Lantash in a stasis type chamber while healing from the wounds that it received when Martouf was killed. The third Tok'ra we have seen was Egeria in the tank on Pangar. The fourth in the same episode was Kelmaa who sacrificed itself for Egeria. The fifth was Kanan when it precipitously left O'Neill before O'Neill's capture by Ba'al.

The host is only Tok'ra by way of the symbiote. Without the symbiote the person would not be biologically Tok'ra anymore. The Tok'ra are a sub-species of the Goa'uld, not the human hosts we see.

Lady Aleena 08:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, that makes sense - moving it back down. It gives a lot more room beside the ToC for Anise's descriptive text but results in some extra whitespace below. That whitespace could be filled in by expanding the material on Anise, though, so it could just be temporary. Bryan 08:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Infobox placement
This page has been reverted back to Bryan's last edit. The infoboxes on the Tok'ra go with the HOST not the SYMBIOTE. See the discussions above for more. Lady Aleena 07:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Considering that's two editors now who've tried moving the infobox up, perhaps it might be a good idea to consider changing the style to suit it? Either by putting the infoboxes with the symbiotes or by listing the symbiotes second. It'll reduce the whitespace a bit and also associate the infobox with the beginning of the text it's about. Bryan 07:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If that box is moved up, the bulletted list that is with Anise's Episodes gets screwed up big time. I wish that this page could be protected until people get use the the idea that they should come here first to see what is going on with this article. PS. I am about ready to do my next one. Lady Aleena 07:42, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Protection is only used in cases of dire ongoing vandalism or edit warring, not as a preventative measure. Protection policy lists the sorts of situations where it might be warranted. Bryan 17:05, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

That's three people now who've moved the infoboxes up. And I'm starting to lean in that direction again myself. Aleena, would you be willing to compromise a little in favor of a more "intuitive" layout? It's true that that photo is technically a photo of the host rather than the symbiote, but within the show everyone just refers to her as Anise and when people say "Anise" that's the image that pops to mind. We could add a footnote somewhere mentioning the compromise if need be. Since the hosts are just as much "against Ra" as the symbiotes are, and people say things like "joining the Tok'ra" or "becoming a Tok'ra", I think it's not unreasonable to mix them up a bit. Bryan 18:59, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

BIG mistake in Egeria entry
Why didn't someone slap upside the head for making the error in the Egeria entry? I am so embarrassed. Lady Aleena 00:19, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't actually read most of the stuff I edit. :) Bryan 17:05, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

split the article?
I'm upset about including major characters like Jacob Carter on one list page like this. I think they should have seperate articles. Meta-Wiki is okay with this. --  Alfakim  --  talk   14:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Jacob is included, but his article still stands alone. He was included for completeness. Without Jacob on this page, the article would be incomplete. Also, the symbiote is more important than the host. Hosts come and go, but the symbiotes must live on until their natural deaths. So, in this case, Jacob is Selmak's vehicle. The only plus to the relationship is that they keep each other company.
 * And even if the Meta-Wiki is okay with it, does it mean that we have to do it? No, it doesn't. I am striving to quell the nay sayers. If you really feel that there needs to be more on Jacob, there is a wiki we can link this article with called TV IV. It is a wiki especially for television series. We can keep it small here, but you can go there and expand to your heart's delight.
 * Also, this is not a list page. A list page has just a list on it and nothing else. This is an actual article about the Tok'ra we know.
 * Lady Aleena 17:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * PS. I am really tired right now, so I will revisit this subject later. Remember, Jake is included, but his article still exists. Jacob Carter - take a look.


 * I've just added the "main" template to the Jacob Carter section, but I'm thinking it's not a good idea to have that much material duplicated between two articles - either edits will wind up split between the two or it'll take twice as much work to ensure they remain in sync. I'm thinking of drastically trimming down the Jacob Carter section into just a stub, ala what I did with the major characters on Red Dwarf characters for example. Figured I'd bring it up here before doing it, though, since people seem to have a lot invested one way or the other on this article. Bryan 18:45, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * No, go the other way. Trim the SECTION, buff the ARTICLE.--  Alfakim  --  talk   23:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's actually what I said. :) Bryan 07:59, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

TOC and Anise
Okay, what happened to my floating TOC and why is Freya's picutre beside Asise? &mdash;Lady Aleena talk / contribs 00:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Gender of Selmak
AFAIK Symbiotes don't really have a gender, but some prefer either male or female hosts. I remember that Selmak had a female host when we first saw him/her. Is known wether Selmak prefers male or female hosts? I think the infobox should be changed, to at least acknowledge that the gender may change with host, if not show the "original" gender. (Do they refer to Selmak as "he" or "she" in the series? They say "he" in the german translation, but that doesn't have to mean anything.)--Cyberman TM (talk) 11:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)