Talk:Tom Paradise

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Edit request
I would like the COI template removed from the beginning of this article. It appears that the editor who placed it there did so without beginning a corresponding discussion on the talk page, and this means that the tag should be removed (please see the tag's documentation to verify this). The COI tag is not meant to be placed on every article with COI content, but on those with a problem with neutrality. No problem with neutrality has been indicated here. KDS4444 (talk) 01:08, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
 * user:KDS4444 is a paid editor and this article needs to be checked for neutrality.
 * They removed the tag here Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 01:32, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
 * It is best practice to make the disclosure locally and at the user page. It is much easier to make sense of a COI request on a Talk page, when the COI tag is there on the talk page. Jytdog (talk) 04:05, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Please look at the template documentation for the tag on the article page. The documentation states that the person placing it needs to indicate specific problems on the talk page for other editors to address, unless he/ she decides to fix the COI problem him/ herself.  It says nothing about "flagging" an article to ensure its neutrality because that is not a specific problem.  If either of you feel the article is not neutral or has COI problems, please state what those problems are.  Placing this tag to suggest that it "needs checking" is not helpful and is NOT what the tag is designed to be used for-- do you see neutrality problems?  What are they?  If you are unable to do this, then the placement of this tag remains unnecessary.  I (let me disclose my gender: I am a "he", not a "they") removed the COI tag from the article TALK page (i.e. this page) because I had already made a full declaration on my userpage-- the policy with regard to paid COIs does not require me to make statements on both my userpage and the article talk page (I have pointed this out before, and have not been listened to).  Your refusal to follow the template's documentation and to understand and accept the requirements about disclosure and paid COIs is deeply frustrating.  Please either state a specific problem with this article or remove the tag.  Thank you.  KDS4444 (talk) 13:28, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Sure the specific problem is this article was written by someone with a COI. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 17:08, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll have to back KDS4444 on this one. As I currently see it, questionable content has already been removed, and the template documentation doesn't support its use here any longer (unless you have specific concerns about the neutrality of the article that you wish to express here). However, the connected contributor should stop editing the article directly, instead proposing edit requests for any further content (something I'm sure they know). Just my opinion on the matter. Regards, VB00 (talk) 15:19, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * This is not in the ref "distinguished professor". This is also unreffed "Paradise was one of the lead researchers for the The PBS special presentation PETRA: Lost City of Stone."
 * The second ref does not work. And his age is unreffed. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 18:08, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I will see if I can address this issues soon. In the mean time I have for a second time removed the connected contributor tag from this page-- I have already made a disclosure on my user page, and to the best of my understanding am not required to make an additional disclosure here.  If I choose not to do so, I believe that this is my right.  Before placing it back there, please discuss the matter with me (per WP:BRD).  Thanks.  KDS4444 (talk) 04:09, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Nobody has much of any "rights" here. I have no idea what you mean by "your rights". Disclosure tags are commonly placed on the user page (so people can see everything an individual has edited for pay) and locally at the article talk page so that editors there can see the history of conflicting editing.  It is not uncommon for multiple conflicted or paid editors to have worked on a single article. Jytdog (talk) 02:49, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * @KDS--Please do not remove the tag unless you have local consensus. Winged Blades of Godric On leave 06:13, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Could I not simply make a statement here which would be the equivalent of the tag? I, KDS444, have been paid by the University of Arkansas to edit the article on Tom Paradise.  KDS4444 (talk) 12:36, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * --What exact problems have you got with the template? Winged Blades of Godric On leave 14:09, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * As someone who feels bludgeoned for having disclosed his role as a paid editor here and elsewhere, please understand that I am not exactly eager to hand out more sticks. I could explain, but the swelling would need to go down first. (...Or maybe the question was only a rhetorical one...?  In which case, we can just leave it there, yes?)  Also, I had asked for discussion before the tag was replaced, and received none-- now I am being told not to remove it without "local consensus", which seems like a convenient way around WP:BRD...  I understand that BRD is not a formal policy page, but I don't see how the polite request for discussion-before-replacement can be so quickly disregarded. Did I mention the sticks? Do you have a problem with me making a statement here on the talk page instead of having this tag placed on it?  If so, why?  KDS4444 (talk) 00:03, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The tag persists at the top of the page. Your statement is buried in here and will eventually be archived.
 * Also as I said already it is not uncommon for conflicted/paid editors to build up with time. One of the things that the tags do is help editors understand the history of paid editing, even five years from now (yes, this page will be around in five years, probably. You might not be.
 * In any case, you will not get consensus here or anywhere else to take the tag off this talk page or any other talk page. You can try but you will be wasting your time. Jytdog (talk) 04:42, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Follow-up edit request
I'd like to ask that the following reference be added to the article to substantiate the subject's claim to being a lead researcher on Petra: (this citation is allowable per all five terms of WP:SELFPUB). I would also like to ask that the following reference be added to substantiate the claim of being a "university distinguished professor": which is allowable under the same terms of that same policy page. I'd like to ask that the COI tag be removed from the article at the same time. Thank you. KDS4444 (talk) 01:31, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * done; used his faculty page instead of the linked in page. I removed the COI tag as it is cleaned enough now. Jytdog (talk) 03:03, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Edit request
I would like to request that the following selected list of publications be added to this article under a section heading called "Selected publications" (or some other section heading, if there is a more appropriate one), towards the end of the article's text. Thanks in advance for considering it. KDS4444 (talk) 13:50, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Here is the list:

[http://www.academia.edu/18201954/Architecture_and_Earth-Sun_relationships_across_Petra_Jordan_an_inventory_of_principal_structures Paradise, T. R. 2016. "Earth-Sun relationships and Architectural orientation in Petra, Jordan: An analysis of the principal tombs and structures." In Annual of the Department of Antiquities of Jordan (ADAJ): 16pp.]

[http://www.esri.com/esri-news/arcuser/winter-2015/nabataean-architecture-and-the-sun Paradise, T.R. and Angel, C.C., 2015. ‘Petra, Architecture, GIS, and the Sun: a landmark discovery in the Valley of the Crescent Moon”, ArcUser (ESRI): Winter.]

Paradise, T.R. 2013. “Rock Weathering Assessment of tafoni distribution and environmental factors on a sandstone djinn block in Petra, Jordan”. Applied Geography 42: 176-185. doi.org/10.1016/j.apgeog.2013.04.011

[https://www.academia.edu/2413753/Petras_Great_Flood_evidence_for_a_catastrophic_flood_in_the_4th_Century Paradise, T.R. 2011. “Petra’s Great Flood: evidence for a catastrophic flood in the 5th-6th Century”. Annual of the Department of Antiquities of Jordan (ADAJ), 55: 18pp.]

[http://www.academia.edu/7276442/Architecture_and_Deterioration_in_Petra_Issues_Trends_and_Warnings Paradise, T.R. 2011. “Architecture and Deterioration in Petra: Issues, trends and warnings“ in Archaeological Heritage at Petra: Drive to Development or Destruction?” (Doug Comer, editor), Springer-Verlag NYC: 87-119.]

[https://www.academia.edu/3567316/Tafoni_and_Rock_Basins_gnammas_solution_pits_ Paradise, T.R. 2011. “Tafoni and other rock basins” in Geomorphology (editor G. Pope, J. Shroder), Reed-Elsevier Geosciences Reference Series MORP v.4: 28pp.]

[https://www.academia.edu/1151523/Sandstone_Chamber_Humidity_and_Tourism_in_Petra_Jordan Paradise, T.R. 2010. “Tourism and Chamber Humidity in Petra, Jordan”. Journal of Architectural Conservation v16.2: 63-79.]

Paradise, T.R. 2005. “Weathering of sandstone architecture in Petra, Jordan: influences & rates”, GSA Special Paper 390: Stone Decay in the Architectural Environment: 39–49.

[http://www.academia.edu/19707593/Sandstone_weathering_and_aspect_in_Petra_Jordan Paradise, T.R. 2002. “Sandstone Weathering and Aspect in Petra, Jordan”, Zeitscrift für Geomorphologie v.46: 1-17.] Paradise, T.R. 2000. “Architectural Deterioration and Cultural Management Issues in Petra, Jordan: a decade of research” UNESCO/ICOMOS International Congress on Culture and Monuments Proceedings, Venice, Italy. 19pp.

Paradise, T.R. 1998. "The Natural History and Landscape of Petra" in chapter in Petra's Great Temple (Martha Joukowsky, editor) Brown University Press: Providence: 7pp.

[https://www.academia.edu/1151521/Sandstone_Weathering_Thresholds_at_Petra_Jordan_Reply_to_Yaalon_1996 Paradise, T.R. 1995. "Sandstone Weathering Thresholds in Petra, Jordan" in Physical Geography v.16: 205-222.]

[https://www.academia.edu/1151517/Analysis_of_weathering-constrained_erosion_of_sandstone_in_the_Roman_Theater_of_Petra_Jordan Paradise, T.R. 1999. Paradise, T.R. 1994. "Sandstone Weathering of the Roman Theater in Petra, Jordan" in American Journal of Archaeology v.98: 542-545.]


 * Would you please provide doi or jstor references for these so that people can go look at them? thx Jytdog (talk) 03:36, 28 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Have now provided links for I believe eight of the above, may be able to provide some of the remaining ones soon. Also, I would like to ask that another equally-qualified editor assist me with this edit request.  (I hope you understand this.)  Thanks.  KDS4444 (talk) 05:55, 28 October 2017 (UTC)


 * That is really messy, how you did that. And it is not the formal citation. The first one is strange.  The document linked-to at academia.edu has a header that says it was ppublished in the  American Journal of Archaeology, and just below that says "Significant Field Reports (Jordan) v.120".  Looking at the journal, one finds the following


 * Petra: Earth-Sun Relationships and Architecture in Petra, in


 * But the title, text and images there are different from what is in the document at academia.edu. The citation itself says the paper published in the "Annual of the Department of Antiquities of Jordan".  Going and looking at the homepage for the journal (which is poor), here, they say the last issue they published was in 2011.  So... this citation and the associated link don't match up.  Can you please provide properly formatted citations, with a doi or jstor or other link to the actual published paper?  Academia.edu is not a good thing here. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 17:23, 28 October 2017 (UTC)


 * My edit request was to have these added to the article— you asked that I provide links so that others could read them, and I did so for a large proportion of them. These are not references for claims made in the article itself, these are publications by the subject of the article intended as a list of his academic publications— I don't know of any policy or guideline that requires such a list include DOI or JSTOR tracking information, and while I agree that having that information might be useful and interesting, I don't think its absence is reason for denying or holding up an edit request.  If a link I have provided doesn't seem to match that of the corresponding article, then that link should certainly be removed.  If the edit request is, in your view, an unreasonable one or if you believe it contains erroneous information then it should be denied and the denial should be explained, perhaps as, "Request denied - list of publications is erroneous and/ or does not include DOI numbers or JSTOR information."
 * For the second time, I would like to ask that any other equally qualified editor please consider this edit request. Thank you.  KDS4444 (talk) 00:27, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I will be happy to add these when they are properly cited. I reckon others will say the same but we will see. The first publication still makes no sense. Jytdog (talk) 03:25, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
 * You don't understand. I don't want you to add them at all.  I would like you to make no further comment on this page and allow any other editor to interact with me over adding this information to the article.  Any other editor.  I don't think this is an unreasonable request, is it?  You don't have to answer that.  I'd prefer it if you did not.  KDS4444 (talk) 05:21, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I do understand. Any independent editor is free to respond to this. Until you fix the problems, I doubt anyone will add this content, but we will see. Jytdog (talk) 14:49, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It would be nice if they could do so without having been pre-notified here by you that you don't think they should. You have made it virtually impossible for me to interact with anyone on Wikipedia without somehow tainting that interaction first.  This is what I mean by you not understanding, and by interfering.  If anyone except you had been allowed to consider my request first, then perhaps it would have been treated at face value.  Instead, you have all but succeeded in smothering it, and have dared any other editor to accept the request until it has been handled on your terms, even if you now at last bow out of the conversation.  You are setting up new rules as we go along, which makes me increasingly disinterested in submitting such requests, which makes the whole thing backfire and defeats the purpose.  KDS4444 (talk) 05:42, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Here is a new list of these references, each with information related to an online source or a DOI for that publication:

Paradise, T.R. and Angel, C.C., 2015. ‘Petra, Architecture, GIS, and the Sun: a landmark discovery in the Valley of the Crescent Moon”, ArcUser (ESRI): Winter. http://www.esri.com/esri-news/arcuser/winter-2015/nabataean-architecture-and-the-sun

Paradise, T.R. 2013. “Rock Weathering Assessment of tafoni distribution and environmental factors on a sandstone djinn block in Petra, Jordan”. Applied Geography 42: 176-185. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.apgeog.2013.04.011

Paradise, T.R. 2011. “Architecture and Deterioration in Petra: Issues, trends and warnings“ in Archaeological Heritage at Petra: Drive to Development or Destruction?” (Doug Comer, editor), Springer-Verlag NYC: 87-119. http://www.springer.com/us/book/9781461414803#aboutBook

Paradise, T.R. 2011. “Tafoni and weathered stone basins” in Geomorphology (editor G. Pope, J. Shroder), Reed-Elsevier Geosciences Reference Series MORP v.4: 28pp. https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-12-374739-6.00068-3

Paradise, T.R. 2010. “Tourism and Chamber Humidity in Petra, Jordan”. Journal of Architectural Conservation v16.2: 63-79. http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/13556207.2010.10785070

Paradise, T.R. 2005. “Weathering of sandstone architecture in Petra, Jordan: influences &amp; rates”, GSA Special Paper 390: Stone Decay in the Architectural Environment: 39–49. https://doi.org/10.1130/0-8137-2390-6.39

Paradise, T.R. 2002. “Sandstone Weathering and Aspect in Petra, Jordan”, Zeitscrift für Geomorphologie v.46: 1-17. https://www.schweizerbart.de/papers/zfg/detail/46/64380Sandstone_weathering_and_aspect_in_Petra_Jordan

Paradise, T.R. 1995. "Sandstone Weathering Thresholds in Petra, Jordan" in Physical Geography v.16: 205-222. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02723646.1995.10642550

--KDS4444 (talk) 05:51, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I am not going to add junky-looking stuff like this to the article. Do you really not know how to use the template:cite journal? It is built right into the editing toolbar.   In the editing toolbar right above the editing window, over the to right, it says "Cite".  If you click that another toolbar opens below it.  Over to the left it says "template", and you can select "journal" from the list there.  Several of the fields in that template (and others) have a little magnifying glass by them - that means the field will autofill if you enter something there and click the magnifying glass.  This doesn't work perfectly and you have to manually fill some stuff in.  Click "insert" at the bottom, and it will insert a citation.  Remove the ref tags, and you get a nice layout like below. First two are done. The first one is not a real journal but the website of a GPS company so I had to do it manually (and it should maybe not be here); the second one has a doi and took seconds to complete. Third one, did as a book chapter.

-- Jytdog (talk) 13:41, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

...Which, last I checked, is not a reason to decline an edit request, and so I have now simply made it myself. Thank you for your assistance and encouragement. If you would like to edit it, feel free. I guess I will take the blame for it being "junky" (and yes, I have never heard of or used the template, nor any of its peers,, , , or — all new to me!  Wait, was I adding citations??). KDS4444 (talk) 13:42, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

This is an overly long list for a stub article and seems like a CV. Maybe try a list of books he has published or add some background on why these journal entries are important. Also while he passes notability standards I don't think he is "particularly" known for anything. 2600:1010:B054:AF94:A290:D00D:9821:696E (talk) 17:21, 15 November 2017 (UTC)


 * the normal way of showing importance is with citations. When I write or revise articles on researchers, I usually list the 3 or 4 most cited articles, giving the citation counts from Google Scholar.  DGG ( talk ) 18:59, 17 November 2017 (UTC)