Talk:Tom Pryce/Archive 1

The Video
Who is this guy on this video: (Pause it at 1:27) Is it Van Vuuren or Pryce? --Skully Collins Review Me! Please? 11:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Response : The guy at 1.27 in that video is Pryce. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.30.196 (talk • contribs)

Nationality of UK drivers
There is a discussion on how to represent UK drivers in F1 articles going on at WikiProject Formula One. It looks as if the consensus is going to be to stick with the current agreement, which is that all drivers from the United Kingdom are referred to by their passport nationality of British, both in their articles and in race results. This maintains consistency with the official results and avoids the project having to judge whether or not a particular driver considers themselves to be English, Irish, Welsh or 'independent Truronian'. Birthplace and place of residence will of course be included in the article as well.

Editors who have an objection to this are encouraged to raise theirs views over at WP:F1.

Meanwhile I'm going to leave this article as it is until the 7 December before changing it to whatever the final consensus is. Continual back and forth isn't going to get us anywhere. 4u1e 17:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I edited this article whilst you were writing the above comment, so apologies for that, but surely this is a forgone conclusion? Bretonbanquet 17:17, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. However, I wouldn't want to be accused later of having rushed it through without allowing time for anyone to object. It the wider scheme of things it's no problem to wait a few days. Me not reverting this article again is a personal thing. I've got no objection to anyone else doing it - it's just that observation of a recent series of edit wars (guess who!) makes me think that sometimes it's useful to let things cool off a bit! 4u1e 07:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Amazon links
Hi. Just a thought, but ought we really to be providing direct links to Amazon pages for reference books? The ISBN system links through to book seller searches, and I don't think that it is Wikipedia's place to be indirectly advertising Amazon's (admittedly first class) service. After all, as the BBC might say, other book traders are available. Pyrope 16:12, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've been picked up on that one as well at FA review. Apparently we shouldn't link to Amazon - I picked up the habit from other articles, and should now be removing them all. Another task I'm not looking forward to. 4u1e 17:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Pre-Formula One

 * In Pre-F1, what series did Pryce first race in? Currently it just says that he won a prize, but not what he was racing. We may need to work on this bit to make it clear and interesting for non-motorsport nuts.
 * I'm stumped - what's Formula 100, in this context? 4u1e 07:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Answers:
 * After taking a bit of a read on this part of Tom's career. He "started" his racing career running in a few single races before entering a championship called the "Daily Express Crusader championship, which was ran by Motor Racing Stables (MRS) and open only to teenagers, the cars that they were running in were Lotus 51s. A interesting footnote from the final race was that it was raining, and Jack Pryce (Tom's father) remembered that his son was rubbing his hands with delight at the prospect of racing in the rain.
 * Formula 100, or Formula F100, isn't a single seater category. It's a twin seater, sports car event which Pryce won in, what was described by David Tremayne as, "embrassing ease".
 * I'll have a go at putting this into the article.-- S kully Collins Edits 07:25, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

GA Review
Overall this is pretty good, just wondering if there was a way to add the helmet information somewhere into the article, seems somewhat out of place in its own section.-- Wizardman 19:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree with you. I originally had it down under his career section, like I did with Damon Hill's article. I believe Pyrope moved it. Anyway, I'll move the section under his career and thanks for the review, I was personally looking for the words: POV, Weasel Words, etc because this is an article I'm a bit attatched too, if you know what I mean.-- S kully Collins Edits 16:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay. I think you id pretty good for prose and style, that didn't seem to be an issue.-- Wizardman 14:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Alternative sources
Skully, A couple of reviewers have raised the question of the reliance this article places on one source. I'm not sure it's really a problem, the source you're using is probably the best one, but I'll try and subsititute some of your references from a review of the 1975 season which I have. My first attempt to do this has raised a couple of points: Cheers. Good article, by the way. 4u1e 15 March 2007, 13:00
 * 1) The article says that Pryce didn't get a DN5 until South Africa in 1975. Typically this contradicts what my source says - although www.oldracingcars.com confirms your version. Can you confirm that TLG says that it was South Africa? Thanks.
 * 2) Does ref 26 (TLG page 158) cover both the RoC result and Pryce being the first Welshman to win an F1 race?


 * Thanks for the praise 4u1e. From memory, since I'm currently in college at the moment and don't have TLG with me, I can remember an image caption of the DN3 at the first round of the '75 season which supported the claim that Pryce didn't drive the DN5 until the third round. Curiously though, I do remember reading in the book about a Shadow and the name on the side being: Ronnie Peterson. Perhaps this should belong in the first '75 paragraph, but I'll try and work it into the article once I get the facts right.
 * What about the second round (Brazil)? The 1975 Motorsport yearbook lists Pryce in a DN5 at that race, although that's contradicted by oldracingcars.com. Apparently Peterson came very close to driving for Shadow at the first race of the '75 season, so I wouldn't be all that surprised to see such a picture. 4u1e 15 March 2007, 15:21
 * Doug Nye's History of the Grand Prix car (1965 - 1985) also confirms that Pryce drove a DN3 in both South American races. Chassis DN3-3B, which was DN3-3A with some DN5 bits, which may explain the confusion! (p.233-234) 4u1e 23:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * As for the second claim, I think they can both be covered by a single image caption of Pryce celebrating his win at Brands Hatch. The last part of it read something like, "the first Welshman to win a Formula One event", so I'm guessing that's the same as "an F1 race". Although shouldn't the article say that a Welshman has yet to win an Official Formula One championship race?--Phill talk Edits 14:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I was wondering whether to reference the race from the book I'm using, which has a short report on the race. I might expand the detail of the race a little, appropriate as it was his only F1 win, and add my ref. I agree, you could mention that a Welshman hasn't yet won in the championship. 4u1e 15 March 2007, 15:21
 * I've expanded it a little bit and ref'd from another source. 4u1e 23:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Token
I'm a bit confused about the 1974 section, specifically about Token. "The team itself was created by Tony Vlassopulos and Ken Grob after the original Token team closed down in 1973 due to a lack of finanicial backing; which lead to the end of the Rondel Racing outfit." was this original Token team an F1 team, and was it related to either Rondel or the new Token team? AlexJ (talk) 15:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

This line needs changing
In 2007, it was annouced that Pryce would have a statue of himself erected in his home town of Ruthin.

Considering that he died in '77, it would be a bit difficult to erect his own statue. Needs to be fixed to mean that the town council (or whatever) is erecting a statue in honor of him. Coradon 16:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Another line is that it says at the bottom part of the section about itself it says that the teenage marshal, van vurden could not be found. this is in correct because on videos you can clearly see van vurden's body, as disturbing as it is summorsulting into the concrete barrier. --leemyster (talk) 16:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Lotus 79 image
I question the inclusion of the Lotus 79 image in this article. Whilst I don't doubt what the caption says, it's a bit of a moot point, isn't it? I mean, given the nature of the accident, Pryce could just as easily have been killed driving a Lotus at Kyalami in '77 as a Shadow, in which case he still would never have driven the Lotus 79. DH85868993 (talk) 12:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a fair point, one I think was raised during one of the reviews. A more appropriate free use picture has become available in the past few days, which could possibly be used to replace it. I see the only free use pic we have of Pryce is already being used in the article. It's either the L79 picture or no picture. AlexJ (talk) 00:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd vote for "no picture". DH85868993 (talk) 10:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed; it's pure speculation. Pryce never drove for Lotus, much less in that car. Flanker235 (talk) 10:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I've removed it. DH85868993 (talk) 08:24, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Memorial image
The text at Death#Aftermath refers to Pryce's memorial in Ruthin. I've found two suitable images of it. , from Wikimedia Commons (licensed for reuse under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 license) and here, from Wicipedia Cymraeg (licensed for reuse under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 license). Would either of these be suitable for this article? Daicaregos (talk) 07:46, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I like the first one. --John (talk) 21:52, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I cropped it and added it to the article. I think it looks good. Thank you. --John (talk) 22:33, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

A Welsh racing driver
Tom Pryce was a Welsh-speaking Welshman, who drove with a Welsh flag on his helmet. Numerous reliable sources describe him as Welsh e.g. BBC, ITN, Guardian, WalesOnline, Welsh Racing Drivers Association, Tom Pryce Memorial Trust, Classic and Performance Car magazine, Auto Evolution, Formula One, A and Formula 5000 in America.: Race by Race by Wolfgang Klopfer, Racing at Oulton Park in the 1970s by Peter McFadyen and of Formula One: the definitive illustrated guide ... by Bruce Jones, Damon Hill. He should be described here, as he is elsewhere, as a Welsh racing driver, and his nationality in the infobox noted as Welsh. Any objections to making the change? Daicaregos (talk) 15:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes (sorry!). He was undoubtedly Welsh, and the article lead says so clearly as it stands, but the infobox represents the nationality under which a driver officially competed. In Formula One, like the Olympics, but unlike say football, nationality is officially defined at the level of the UK and all home nations drivers are officially recorded as driving for the UK. Look at all F1 footage - Irvine, Coulthard, Hamilton and the rest are all listed in the results as British, and the Union Jack is the flag used for them on the podium. This is a very longstanding and thoroughly tested convention at WP:F1 - if you feel it is wrong you will need to change the consensus there. Regards. 4u1e (talk) 15:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * See, for example. Several Englishmen, an Ulsterman and a Welshman, all listed as British. 4u1e (talk) 16:00, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * (e/c) Yes, even though Pryce was undoubtedly a Welshman, the flag raised when he appeared on the podium was the British flag, and the F1 infobox always shows the podium flag. It's the same for Englishman Jenson Button, Scotsman David Coulthard and Ulsterman Eddie Irvine, for example. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:06, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean about the infobox. However, it is disingenuous to say the article lead clearly says he is Welsh. What it says is “Thomas Maldwyn Pryce (11 June 1949 – 5 March 1977) was a British racing driver from Ruthin, Wales.” As you say, he is undoubtedly Welsh. This should be noted in the Lead. As, for example, the article on Jackie Stewart. Daicaregos (talk) 16:11, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I'd say "he is the only Welsh driver to have won a Formula One race" in the next sentence is pretty unambiguous, so accusations of falsehood on my part are perhaps inappropriate. He was of course also British, so the statement as it stands is not wrong. I do agree that the wording in the first sentence is awkward at best - it was an attempt to avoid the problem when people see Welsh (or Scottish, or whatever) in the lead and a British flag in the infobox. You tend to get an infinite loop of edits as people drive by and try and make them consistent. The wording, which is widely used, was an attempt to have our cake and eat it. That too is the current consensus although a much less strong one and I for one am open to better suggestions. 4u1e (talk) 16:18, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * We had a bad problem of editors often claiming that a driver was specifically "English" or "Scottish" simply based on their birthplace. That not being acceptable or remotely accurate in a lot of cases, the "British driver from X" was our solution, helped by the fact that all drivers are considered British in the eyes of the FIA, the sport's governing body. If any better solution was proposed, I'm the Wikiproject would be open to it. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:24, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * When searching for reliable sources above, I also searched for "Tom Pryce British". Most of the "British" hits related to the British Grand Prix, rather than his nationality, or to lump him in with 'other' British drivers. He is invariably described as Welsh, in newspapers, magazines and books, as well as other sources. It is one of his defining factors. It would be hard to find someone more Welsh than Tom Pryce. The Lead (the beginning of the Introduction) should read "Thomas Maldwyn Pryce (11 June 1949 – 5 March 1977) was a Welsh racing driver from Ruthin, Wales". In my experience, the 'problem' of editors changing nationality is solved by inline references to reliable sources. And in this case, they are plentiful. Daicaregos (talk) 16:35, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * In Pryce's case, I'd be inclined to agree - a really good inline cite after "Welsh" should be enough, leaving the infobox as British. The problem then is avoiding people changing the flag in the infobox. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * (e/c)Good sources for nationality at that level aren't always available, would be my only concern. Obviously in this case, it's not a problem. Your definition of lead is wrong, by the way, it's the whole of the section above the table of contents, not just the first sentence. In any case, thinking of the wider picture, your proposal would be that all home nations F1 drivers would start with the phrase "X is/was a (former) English/Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish Formula One driver"? Quite a lot of articles already use that formation. Mostly the Scottish ones, as they seem to be most militant over this (personal opinion!). I would like to get a standard wording agreed at WP:F1 however, since it's much easier when we have an agreed line across the whole project. Are you happy with that? 4u1e (talk) 16:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I have just read the link you provided to lead, 4u1e, and I owe you an apology. Sorry. I was mistaken. If you want to propose an amendment across the WP:F1 along the lines mentioned above I would support it. I have had no previous involvement with project (I arrived here while working on the List of Welsh people article). While I do not agree with it, I understand the rationale for noting British in the infobox. Nevertheless, the intro should be amended here. I understand that consensus at individual articles overrides Wikiprojects. Daicaregos (talk) 17:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * No worries. I'm not sure whether or not agreement at individual articles does override a more general agreement (but would be really interested in seeing the guidance on it). I'll propose an amendment at WP:F1 and we'll see where it goes. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 18:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I read through a couple of the nationality discussions at WP:F1. They appear to relate to infobox content. I propose that no change be made at this time to the infobox, which I understand to be an F1 infobox template. Consequently, agreement at WP:F1 seems unnecessary. Also, as this article is of interest to several Wikiproject groups, WikiProject guideline, particularly WikiProject Council/Guide and WikiProject Council/Guide may be relevant. Bearing in mind the quality and quantity of reliable sources describing Tom Pryce's Welsh nationality, I propose that the Intro be amended to read "Thomas Maldwyn Pryce (11 June 1949 – 5 March 1977) was a Welsh racing driver from Ruthin, Wales." followed by the Tom Pryce Memorial Trust (which notes his dates and places of birth and death, and his nationality) and   BBC (which notes his nationality and place of birth)  references. Daicaregos (talk) 15:33, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm ok with that as long as we don't let other articles follow the same route, without references verifying the nationality. In Pryce's case, I think it's fine. I'll leave a note at the F1 WP for anyone who might want to come over here and have their say. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:16, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for that. For the sake of good order, I've left an identical note at WT:WALES. Daicaregos (talk) 20:22, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It has now been over a week since the notes were left. As no objections have been made to the proposal, I have made the changes as agreed. Daicaregos (talk) 08:52, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I prefer "He was a British racing driver from Ruthin, Wales". Kittybrewster  &#9742;  16:02, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Why? Daicaregos (talk) 16:31, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Because it is the nationality under which he raced. And I think that is the way we treat UK drivers. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  16:36, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * But if he was born in Wales, it would automatically make him Welsh, no? If his parents were Welsh, he self-identified as Welsh, he also had an obvious Welsh surname, then it would look out-of-place to call him British. Would Oscar Wilde ever be called British even though he was technically born under the Union Jack as Ireland was still under British rule then?!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:53, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Jim Clark. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  17:02, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

The nationality under which he raced is clear in the F1 infobox. A discussion took place here where an editor suggested a change to the lead sentence and nobody objected. Yes, it is a change from the way we normally treat F1 drivers, but the change was made under the proviso that clear referencing was included, and the infobox flag remained as the British one. However, "if he was born in Wales, it would automatically make him Welsh" is false. Cliff Richard is not Indian. There are endless examples of people born in a country who are not citizens or identifiers of that country. This is why nobody is advocating a blanket change from British to English/Welsh/Scottish etc. Similar changes to the one on this article could be made, with the right discussion and referencing, and providing it's clear that the driver in question self-identified as English/Welsh etc I don't see the problem. Individual discussions should be had at the relevant articles though. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:18, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You cannot compare Pryce to Cliff Richard. The former was born in Wales to Welsh parents and self-identified as Welsh. Cliff Richard never claimed to be Indian, neither has Julie Christie, who was born in India to English parents.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:38, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I was referring specifically to your sentence "if he was born in Wales, it would automatically make him Welsh". You'll appreciate that many editors will describe an English-born person (for example) as English, regardless of parentage or anything else, based simply on birthplace. It is incorrect. Bretonbanquet (talk)
 * If you had read my entire commentary you would have seen that I went on to add that his parents were Welsh, he self-identified as Welsh. I don't really think there can be any doubt that Pryce was Welsh.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:26, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I did of course read your entire post, and I did make it clear that I was only referring to that sentence and the sentiment within it. If you had read my first post in this discussion, you'd know that I'm well aware that he was a Welshman. Again, I am talking about the wider issue, not about Pryce specifically, and I have never opposed the change that has now been made. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:35, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

"A Welsh racing driver from Ruthin, Wales"? isn't that like saying "A red chair that is painted red"? Ya's could've decided on "A racing driver from Ruthin, Wales". GoodDay (talk) 23:09, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You can be "from" somewhere without being a citizen of that country. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:40, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * In this case, being from the place he was born, it doesn't read right. British race driver, fitted better with from Ruthin, Wales. GoodDay (talk) 23:49, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd agree with that personally, but others don't like "British racing driver from Wales". We have yet to work out a piece of phrasing that everyone likes... :) Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:04, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * "A racing driver from Ruthin, Wales" would suffice. But I reckon it's best to avoid the unionist/devolutionist preferences fights. Anyways, it's up to you Formula 1 editors. GoodDay (talk) 00:09, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You've touched on it right there! I'm sure you know how ugly those fights can get, usually with very little progress made. Sigh... Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:12, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I do. GoodDay (talk) 00:15, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Manual of Style (biographies) says: The opening paragraph should give:


 * Name(s) and title(s), if any;
 * Nationality;
 * What the person did;
 * Why the person is significant.

Where a person was born is excluded from the guideline. If editors think “Thomas Maldwyn Pryce (11 June 1949–5 March 1977) was a Welsh racing driver. ” scans better, I would support. Daicaregos (talk) 00:30, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * "British race driver born in Ruthin, Wales" is better. But since that's off the table, excluding place of birth would make the intro read better 'then' it currently does. GoodDay (talk) 00:33, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * British is too vague. It's fine to use for people born in British overseas colonies (to parents who are UK nationals or origin) and Loyalists from Northern Ireland; but in Pryce's case, Welsh specifies his nationality. Wales was his birthplace, and Welsh his ethnicity and the nationality to which he identified. GoodDay, you cannot force people to adopt a nationality or identity based on the passport they just happen to carry. I agree with Daicaregos that the article should read : Thomas Maldwyn Price ..... was a Welsh racing driver.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:08, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Deleting the ...from Ruthin, Wales is fine with me, as it would read better. GoodDay (talk) 12:49, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅, as agreed.  Daicaregos (talk) 13:49, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

A Welsh racing driver (2016)
Transcluded from User talk:Daicaregos

With all due respect, I don't see a clear consensus for using only Welsh in that talk page discussion at all. I see many users disagreeing with your stance. Note that you as the discussion's initiator should never have made an attempt at closing the discussion in your favor. I will post a request to properly close that discussion. Tvx1 13:29, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Please respect WP:BRD. The current text has been stable on this WP:FA since 14 January 2011 and was the version used for Today's featured article on 11 June, 2014. Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy (per WP:RS). Reliable sources describe Tom Pryce as Welsh (including those references cited at the end of the first sentence) and that is how he should be described on his article. I have transcluded this discussion to the article talkpage and will reinstate the cited text. Daicaregos (talk) 14:29, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

I note the longstanding consensus text in the Lead has been reverted once again, citing some spurious consensus at Wikiproject level. Firstly, this article is noted to be of interest to several Wikiprojects; WikiProject Formula One has no more rights of ownership of this page than has any other Wikiproject. Secondly, please read WP:WikiProject, which states ''WikiProjects are not rule-making organizations. WikiProjects have no special rights or privileges compared to other editors and may not impose their preferences on articles.'' And third, the reverting edit summary states “Again, a local consensus cannot override WikiProject consensus. His Welshness is adequately pointed out regardless. His British nationality is factually correct as well. Discuss instead of edit warring.” I have checked the edit history of this Talk page, Tvx1 has never discussed anything here, ever, let alone on this subject. I have reverted to the cited text. Daicaregos (User talk:Daicaregos) 07:29, 21 April 2016 (UTC)


 * I have protected the page for three days, probably in the wrong version of course. Discussion rather than reversion, please (a general comment, not aimed at anyone in particular). Diolch yn fawr / thanks. BencherliteTalk 08:05, 21 April 2016 (UTC)


 * I've lived in Ruthin for nearly 40 years, and I know that if Price's family read that he is described as being 'British' they would be offended. In their eyes (and everyone else who lives in this little town) he is Welsh first, British second. WP can accept dual nationality, unconstrained by passports. The top part of the Infobox F1 driver is about the person; it should include 'Born in' and a Welsh flag (or dual Welsh and union). The lower part of the infobox is about the racing driver, and should have 'Representing:' and an union flag. But the text of the opening statement surely must read about the person, and then his job i.e. in the sentence 'Pryce is a Welsh racing driver from Ruthin, Wales' the word Welsh is an adjective which describes the person (Pryce) not his driving. I totally agree with User:Daicaregos on this. The Welsh language Wicipedia has him as Welsh, as do many others, including Italian, Catalan and Spanish. If English Wikipedia can not cope with dual nationality - the first where a person is born, the second what's on the passport - then God help enwiki! It will become the voice of the totalitarian Big Brother Establishment we are slowly slipping into. Wikipedia in other languages are free spirits - somewhere we can enjoy, live and let live, and flow our kites in the wind. I suggest this article be changed as described, and the new format be similarly changed on all sports infoboxes throughout enwiki, so that this narrow mindedness (that a person can have but one formal nationality) does not occur again. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 10:31, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It's great that both of you have Welsh nationalistic pride, but Wikipedia is not the place to promote it. Nor is Wikipedia a place to right great wrongs. I'm a Belgian from the Dutch-speaking part of Belgium, but I do not go around changing the nationality information in every wikipedia article on a person from that geographic location to "Flemish" (nor do I change it to Walloon for people from the French-speaking part]]. The simply reason for that is that their legal nationality is Belgian and nothing else. The same applies, with some exceptions to, Brits. Contrary to what is stated above Tom Pryce did not possess a dual nationality. He wasn't a legal national of two independent states. He was a legal national and citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland only. Despite sometimes being referred to as simply a nationality, Welsh is actually an ethnicity. Pryce's Welshness wasn't legal in any form. He did not possess a passport or any proof of identity stating his nationality as Welsh, because those simply don't exist.


 * More to the point, he was only notable as a race driver and during his career he has always driven under the UK flag and when he won his only F1 race, it was celebrated with the waving of the Union Jack (and not the Welsh Flag) and the playing of the God Save the Queen (and not Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau). There are of course sports in which the players represent Wales rather than UK (both in national teams and individual), players like Gareth Bale, Terry Griffiths, Jonathan Davies, Ian Woosnam, Richie Burnett and many more (although the are also examples of players, like Ryan Giggs, who have represented both Great Britain and Wales), for whom it is appropriate to introduce them as simply Welsh. Tom Pryce does not fit into that category because sportsmen from his sport represent the entire UK. It is therefore entirely appropriate to introduce him as "British" and "from Wales" in the opining sentence. None of you have presented any argument why that "from Wales" and the following sentence explaining him to be the only Welsh winner of a F1 race insufficiently express his Welshness.


 * Lastly, regarding that "reliable source" claim. None of the presented sources refer to Pryce in a different manner as for other British race drivers. Yet, we introduce all of them as British. Crucially, no reliable source has been presented that quotes Pryce directly expressing his desire not be referred to as British. This is why I see no good reason to make an exception for him over all other F1 Drivers. Tvx1 16:50, 21 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Tvx1's points are all sound. In the same way that we describe Pryce as British we also describe Graham Hill as British, David Coulthard as British and John Watson as British, despite them being most firmly an Englishman, Scotsman and Irishman, respectively. This because, in all cases, their primary notability was gained on the international stage as representatives of the United Kingdom. This reasoning is used outside WP:F1 articles also. Note that the only Welshman to have been Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to date, David Lloyd George, is introduced in the opening line of his Wikipedia page as a "British Liberal politician and statesman." Nobody would dare suggest that Lloyd George wasn't Welsh (a Welsh-speaking man, born to Welsh parents, who, apart from the first few months of his life, grew up within Caernarfonshire, and represented Caernarfon for the entirety of his political career) but his principal notability was as a member of the British House of Commons, a member of the British government, and as the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom who led the British people through the trials of World War I. In terms of introducing a person to a reader on Wikipedia (who could be from any country in the world) establishing the article subject's context is the prime concern, not nationalistic niceties. Pyrop  e  17:54, 21 April 2016 (UTC)


 * I am very offended by what you both have said. You have not understood my points, or you don't want to. I will not in future edit English Wikipedia; your attitude is very anti-diversity, bullyish and ignorant. I just hope (with all the connotations of the word 'nationalism') that Tom's family doesn't take your words too personally. Until things improve on enwiki, I shall NOT be editing in future. Good bye! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 12:30, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Really sorry to hear that Llywelyn2000. I hope you reconsider. Daicaregos (talk) 13:25, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Why would they be? His Welshness is still expressed on multiple occasions regardless. Tvx1 13:50, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * That is because he is Welsh. Daicaregos (talk) 14:24, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Llywelyn2000, I understood perfectly, I just disagreed with you. That is all. Pyrop  e  16:26, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Of course Welsh is an ethnicity; it is a nationality too. The two are not mutually exclusive. The OED defines 'Welsh' as (2a.) Of, from, or belonging to Wales or its people and a Welshman as (1b.) A person who is Welsh by descent, birth, or residency; (typically) a man born in Wales or to Welsh parents. Tom Pryce was a Welsh-speaking Welshman, who drove with a Welsh flag on his helmet. There is no reason his country should not be described as Welsh, per WP:OPENPARA, which tells us The opening paragraph should usually have: 1 Names... 2 Dates of birth and death 3 Context (location or nationality); In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. In Tom Pryce's case that country was Wales and Tom Pryce was already notable before becoming a Formula One driver, winning races at Formula F100, Formula Three and Formula Two. That other pages have chosen to ignore WP:Verifiability to describe drivers is no reason to do so here. Indeed, numerous reliable sources describe him as Welsh e.g. BBC, ITN, Guardian, WalesOnline, Daily Post, Motor Sport Magazine, Getty Images, Welsh Racing Drivers Association, Tom Pryce Memorial Trust, Auto Evolution, Triumph and Tragedy: Welsh Sporting Legends, by Peter Jackson, Racing at Oulton Park in the 1970s by Peter McFadyen, A Chequered Life: Graham Warner and The Chequered Flag, by Richard Hesseltine, Lost and Found: From Racecar Driver to Pilgrim, from Soweto to Findhorn, by Geoff Dalglish, Legends A Chequered History, by Simon Read, The Richard Burton Diaries, Gilles Villeneuve: The Life of the Legendary Racing Driver, by Gerald Donaldson. This page had had a stable Lead for over five years. I see no compelling reason to change it now. Daicaregos (talk) 14:14, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Firstly, we are not ignoring WP:V; his Welshness is mentioned many times on that page, both within the lede and the main body text. Second, nobody is denying that he was Welsh; that sort of straw man argument is not helping you. As far as national context goes, re-read the text you yourself pasted here, it describes it as "the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident". Citizenship and permanent residency are legal statuses that have well defined meanings. Neither apply to Wales, as there are no special immigration conditions for Wales other than those that affect the entire UK. Nationality is a fluid concept and is where most of these arguments start. What isn't uncertain is that Tom Pryce was both a British and Welsh national. As you say, they aren't mutually exclusive. However, in a global context, Welsh is a subset of British, in the same way that English and Scottish are.
 * As far as his notability goes, he had a small amount of that before he entered Formula One, but we aren't living in 1973 any more. That was a while back. These days, here in the 21st century, his principal, indeed only international notability, is as an F1 pilot. In terms of international motorsport he was a British representative and I can't find a single stats listing that doesn't use the UK flag or the abbreviation 'GBR' next to his name. Interestingly, this is very well shown by your citation of Getty Images. The one, single, only time that Getty (a US-based company) describe him in a caption as a "Welsh racing driver" is in an image from 1970, well before his entry into F1. In all other images from his international career, in every single one that mentions any form of nationality for Pryce he is only described as being "of Great Britain". You didn't fancy linking to those?
 * So, let's expand on the theme of context. Wikipedia is an international resource, created and read by users from all over the planet. Your links to establish your view of his context hail, in order, from sources in: UK, UK, UK, UK, UK, UK, US (Getty, see above), UK, UK, Romania? (based on UK TPMT website), UK, UK, UK, UK, UK, UK, UK. See a pattern there? The one source definitely not UK-based is Getty, and that one we have already seen dominantly refers to Pryce as being "of Great Britain", so hardly supports your thesis, does it? The reason that all the sources that support your position are from the UK is that in that context, seen from within the UK, calling someone Welsh helps to clarify their origin; British people have normally heard of Wales and have a good mental picture of what being Welsh implies. This isn't true worldwide. So what do non-UK sources say? What's the perspective from, say, the US? Well, as shown above Getty refer to him in his British context in by far the majority of cases. The other major US-based source of F1 historical information, ESPN, refer to him as British in their profile of him, and also in their story on his death. Hmm. Right, so what about non-English-speaking nations? Well the StatsF1 site, from France, describes him as a pilote britannique. Hardly an exhaustive survey, but clearly there are reliable sources that describe Pryce as British as well.
 * As things stand, Pryce is only specifically described as a British driver right at the top of the page. From there on down he is described as Welsh. This pattern establishes context in the proper order: broad first, then specific. If you are arguing that we should expunge the only major mention of his British status then surely you are actually arguing to exclude this fact, and yet you claim that British and Welsh are not mutually exclusive? Pyrop  e  19:17, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * I already addressed the reliable sources claim in my previous reply. They deal with all the British drivers in that manner, but we list all of them as British regardless. That's not enough to make an exception for Pryce. Moreover, the more I look into this the less your claim seems to hold up. I have quite easily found both non-British and British reliable sources referring to him as British. From outside Britain I found Germany who call him British and Belgium who call him both British and Welsh ("Gallois" in the lead sentence and "Brittanique" in the article's body). From inside the UK I found his GrandPrix.com profile, a Motorsport Magazine article on Britons who could have won the world championship had they lived and F1 Fanatic. It looks more and more like you have selectively linked the sources who describe him as Welsh while consciously not linking the equally existing sources describing him as British in order to skew the discussion in your favor. Tvx1 21:55, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

We should go with "..was a British racing driver...", since Wales is (last time I checked) within the United Kingdom & the UK is the sovereign state. GoodDay (talk) 14:36, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * The Wikipedia convention in respect of Britain is to use Welsh or Scottish if that is how the individual self-identified. So most of the above arguments are irrelevant.  Has anyone got a source as to his own position?  Snowded  TALK 22:24, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * That's simply not true. The Wikipedia convention is to use whatever they were notable for. That's why for instance Mark Williams is introduced as Welsh and someone like Thomas Davies is introduced as British. Tvx1 12:55, 24 April 2016 (UTC)


 * There isn't a solid convention on this at all. The choice of using British/Scottish/English/etc to describe someone from the United Kingdom is almost entirely down to the whim of the editor who created the article, occasionally changed by the drive-by edits of a nationalist of whatever stripe. This is a subject that comes up almost daily on Wikipedia, and if there is a guideline that doesn't amount to "figure it out yourself" for each individual article, I've yet to read it.


 * In the absence of sitewide convention, the Motorsport WikiProject some years before I joined made the decision to describe every racing driver as British, and use the British flag in all appropriate places. This was based upon the fact that all racing drivers from the UK holding a racing licence issued by the FIA or its affiliates are British, and represent Britain in international motorsport. This has generally been uncontroversial, as it uses cold, hard facts in place of the murky and often-unverifiable world of self-identification. In Pryce's case, while he may indeed be a proud Welshman, that does not overrule the fact he is a British citizen and represented the UK in motorsport. QueenCake (talk) 16:51, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * In agreement, editors choice is always the root of these disputes. GoodDay (talk) 17:25, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It has been the convention on political articles for as long as I have been editing wikipedia and it is a simple rule. Self-Identification has to be sourced like everything else in wikipedia  Snowded  TALK 20:23, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd tend to agree with User:QueenCake about the difficulty of looking simply to self-identification (there often won't be evidence, and even the subject themselves may look at it differently in different contexts) and about how these things work generally, for better or worse – often for worse, since, as ever, this should be about clarity and consistency in the presentation of information above anything else. As for political articles, I've never been aware of any firm convention: if anything, the convention is similar to the one being relied on here, in that MPs would usually be described as British, MSPs for example as Scottish. Finally, it seems a little odd for people to being getting so worked about Pryce's Welshness supposedly being downgraded, when the first para runs as follows:" Thomas Maldwyn Pryce ... was a British racing driver from Wales ... Pryce is the only Welsh driver to have won a Formula One race and is also the only Welshman to lead a Formula One World Championship Grand Prix: two laps of the 1975 British Grand Prix."  N-HH   talk / edits  09:59, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Getty Images (a US-based company) describe Tom Pryce as a "Welsh racing driver" in a caption of an image from 1970, as highlighted by Pyrope above, demonstrating his notability before his entry into F1. As WP:OPENPARA (3.1) requires us to state the “context (location or nationality)” that is where “the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.”, it is clear that when Pryce became notable internationally it was as as a Welsh racing driver, which is how he should be described here. Daicaregos (talk) 10:06, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * We know he is described as a Welsh racing driver, as he is on this page too. But citing one instance when it has happened is not some trump card that determines what the opening sentence of a page should say. Relying on the fact that it comes from a pre-F1 image is really weak logic I'm afraid and twists the meaning of that part of OPENPARA, which is rather obviously about when people move from one country to another. He did not move from Wales to the UK.  N-HH   talk / edits  10:15, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * And I'll add that when he became notable he was a British national, British citizen and British resident as well. Again, one doesn't exclude the other. His is situation is unlike someone like Nico Rosberg who started his motorsports career being Finnish, but had become German by the time he became notable. That's the sort of example the cited guideline caters to. Tvx1 17:41, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * , please don't go putting words in my mouth, especially as you know full well that my view is that Getty Images actually disproves your theory. If you want to make a statement do it on your own, and don't try to misrepresent the views of other participants in this debate. In 1970, prior to his international career Pryce had limited, local notability in national-level Formula Ford (the lowest formula at the time), insufficient to pass the normal WP:Motorsport notability test let alone WP:GNG. Interestingly, you'll note that the photographer for the image was Norman "Speedy" Quicke, who was staff sports photographer for the Daily Express in 1970. Hence, this is a Daily Express photo that Getty have subsequently bought, and it is highly likely that the caption came with it at the time. Therefore this is a UK-sourced citation, again! Pryce's current principal notability, the thing that he is known for internationally, is as an F1 driver, and in this context Getty only ever refer to him in a British frame of reference. Pyrop  e  20:57, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It looks to be simple misinterpretation of the guideline by Daicageros. After all, again, Tom Pryce was a British national, citizen and resident as well even in 1970. Tvx1 21:47, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Death
There appears to be some evidence that Van Vuuren's death was not as gorey as is commonly described, but can someone do the deeper research to find the actual sources needed to show it? See:https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Xo7LDsOHquSnhaaThoRTE3V0U/view?pref=2&pli=1 Above link sourced from youtube video comments here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q99k2r6GeS4 The picture link itself is not source grade, but I see little reason to doubt the authenticity of the Van Vuuren body picture seen. Can someone find solid sources here for this? Supplemental: This pdf document was where the jpg images via drive.google came from: https://www.docdroid.net/NvSrcZQ/frederik-janse-van-vuuren-death-photos.pdf.html but even though it looks like it came from a contemporary newspaper, there is still no primary source referenced. Can someone please get on top of this? 104.55.4.109 (talk) 06:55, 8 June 2016 (UTC)P.A.M.104.55.4.109 (talk) 06:55, 8 June 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.55.4.109 (talk) 05:29, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

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