Talk:Tom Waits/Archive 3

Personal Life?
Is it really not significant to mention Tom Waits' wife and children anywhere in this article other than one line in the intro? His wife inspired the song "Jersey Girl" and his son performs with him musically these days, after all, and his daughter is an artist. Xprivate eyex (talk) 07:24, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You're probably right. Why don't you go ahead and add the material you would like to see? --Jleon (talk) 14:43, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It depends on what kind of information you're talking about, but, yes, some information about his family life could be relevant. Two of his sons actually perform with him now, Kathleen writes and produces with Tom, and Greg Cohen, who plays with him sometimes, is his brother-in-law.  So, yes, his family is involved in his music. --- The Old Jacobite The '45  15:43, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I personally very much dislike articles like this one, where the only way to find out more about the person's personal life is to read a billion unrelated words. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 18:30, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it is unfortunate that this section is largely empty. Waits' relationship with his present wife, as well as his personal involvement with other musical artists, have undoubtedly played a part in his development. Notably, his wife is largely attributed (falsely?) to introducing him to music such as Beefheart and encouraging his collaboration in various avant-garde stage productions. There certainly exist many sources for such claims. Spieling (talk) 08:03, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Genres
Tom Waits' genres on his page are Rock and Experimental. What's that about? I think it's obvious to anyone who has listened to any Tom Waits that he'd be classified as Blues and/or Jazz before Rock. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DaddyoKrsna (talk • contribs) 17:47, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with this objection; discussion of the infobox genres should be reopened. User:TheOldJacobite claims that the version limited to "rock" and "experimental" is based in consensus, but from what I gather he is referring only to these two discussions: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Albums/Archive_44 and Talk:Tom_Waits/Archive_2. In the first discussion he claimed that Waits is primarily a rock musician but did not support this with sources, and the object of the discussion were genres for specific albums, with the consensus being that they should be treated on a case to case basis using relevant sources. In the second he repeated his point but when finally pressured to back this with evidence he referred to Waits' AllMusic genre sidebar, which is not a reliable source as per WP:ALBUMAVOID. There is thus no consensus, and no evidence that Waits is primarily considered a rock musician and blues, folk, jazz and others are merely influences that he incorporates! This is only my opinion: but I would argue that Tom Waits has become so significant because he has developed an utterly distinct style not definable by the boundaries of any one genre. If anything, the roots of this style should be placed in the "old" genres of blues and folk as much as in rock. For instance, this Guardian article on Waits' best work mentions blues three times, folk twice, jazz once, and rock not even once.-- MA SHAUN IX 12:00, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
 * While The Guardian is a reliable source, they are in no way definitive when it comes to defining musical genres. But, since you brought it up, an actual examination of the article shows that neither of the passing mentions of "folk" are relevant; 4 of the 7 mentions of "blues" are in direct reference to the song "Tom Traubert's Blues," and the others are passing mentions of a blues-influence in Waits' music, not that he is a blues musician.  The "roots of his style," as you put it, is not what the genre listing in the infobox is for; it is to name the genres that define the great majority of his music.  He left Asylum, and left behind the drunken boho image way back in the late '70s.  Since then, he has explored experimentation with multiple genres, but always in a rock idiom.  Rock and experimental define the majority of his music better than folk, blues, or jazz. ---  The Old Jacobite   The '45  00:02, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree that stronger sources for the genres that "define the majority of his music" should be demonstrated. So where are yours? You claim: "Since [the late 70s], he has explored experimentation with multiple genres, but always in a rock idiom. Rock and experimental define the majority of his music better than folk, blues, or jazz." Care to provide any evidence for this? Right now it seems that all you are basing on is your opinion.-- MA SHAUN IX 19:39, 13 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment, I would like to comment on what MASHAUNIX said here at 12:00, 3 September 2017, - "Tom Waits has become so significant because he has developed an utterly distinct style not definable by the boundaries of any one genre". Well that's the description I'd be looking for! And there's a definite Blues influence in both music and the highly obvious and deliberate embracing of the smokey dim-lit blues and jazz clubs feel of the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. It's in the way he projects himself, and it's definitely in his music. So at the very least "blues" should be one of his genres.  Thanks -- Karl Twist 09:24, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Biography mention
I do not understand why the biography Lowside of the Road: a Life of Tom Waits by Barney Hoskyns should be mentioned in the introduction. Not only is the biography unauthorised, but it mainly focuses on Waits' music because he is so private of his private life. Also some reviews complain that it seems to be Hoskyn's personal opinions on Waits' music.

I don't really think the book should be advertised on this page at all, but if it must then it should be in another section. It is not significant enough for the introduction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abbyjjjj96 (talk • contribs) 20:55, 12 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The fact that it is unauthorized is irrelevant. It is a notable book by a notable music critic and writer, one who has been writing about Waits for the better part of 30 years.  It is worth mentioning, and does not amount to an advertisement. ---  The Old Jacobite   The '45  00:03, 13 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I still do not believe the biography should be mentioned in the introduction. It feels too high and looking at other celebrity pages biographies or autobiographies are not placed this high—some not even at all. I propose it be mentioned elsewhere on Waits' page. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 17:01, 13 September 2017 (UTC)


 * You've yet to cite any policy or guideline for your proposed chances. Last I checked, "I don't like it" is not a valid reason. ---  The Old Jacobite   The '45  18:45, 13 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The biography is apparently little more than a critics opinion on Waits' work. A book of reviews is hardly a real biography. Regardless, it is not relevant enough for the lead section.


 * Wikipedia articles cover topics at several levels of detail: the lead contains a quick summary of the topic's most important points.
 * The lead section of an article is itself a summary of the article's content.
 * – (Summary style)


 * The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important contents.
 * the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic
 * – (Manual of Style/Lead section)


 * And if, unlike me, you deem the "biography" significant, then apparently it should be mentioned elsewhere aswell (it is not).
 * Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article
 * – (Manual of Style/Lead section) —Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 22:34, 13 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The argument that it shouldn't be mentioned in the lede if it isn't mentioned elsewhere is particularly ridiculous coming from you, as you would like it deleted altogether. I say again, it is a notable book by a notable critic and music writer, as such it is suitable to be mentioned in the lede, as well as elsewhere in the article. ---  The Old Jacobite   The '45  23:03, 13 September 2017 (UTC)


 * You asked me to cite guidelines — I did! And yes, while I personally do not think the book is worth mentioning at all, I recognise not all will agree, which is why I proposed placing it elsewhere in the article. Wikipedia's guidelines indicate the book should not be included in the lead. You have been informed of this and are purposely ignoring these guidelines. — Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 00:14, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Filmography
He has 43 acting credits on IMDB - time for a filmography section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deepfryer99 (talk • contribs) 01:16, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Jazz, and jazz-orientated
I'd like to see a source for this claim, which imo is just plain wrong :) - I'll put my edits back in a few days if we don't engage very well here. Privatemusings (talk) 04:53, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

see here and here for context Privatemusings (talk) 04:54, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


 * just keeping this appearing on watchlist :) Privatemusings (talk) 01:54, 29 April 2020 (UTC)


 * going once Privatemusings (talk) 04:15, 30 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm not particularly invested in genre labels on Wikipedia pages one way or the other since artists so often take their influence from so many places, but for the sake of the forum I'll place these here: https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Words_and_Music_of_Tom_Waits/HpJxDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Tom+Waits%22+%22Jazz%22&pg=PA5&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lowside_of_the_Road/QEbAwXe8teQC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Tom+Waits%22+%22Jazz%22&printsec=frontcover on page 139. And if it helps the conversation, when it's said that Waits is "jazz", what it implicitly means is "cool jazz". I don't think anyone means to suggest that his work resembles Ornette Coleman. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 06:22, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The Reliable Sources, which are already cited in the article, do refer to a jazz influence on Waits' early albums. David Smay for instance refers to Waits' "early beat/jazz/Bukowski persona" (page 3 of Swordfishtrombones). Barney Hoskyns notes that around the time of Nighthawks, Waits "wasn't looking to tone down the jazz elements in his music" (p. 139 of Lowside of the Road). I could spend time looking for additional quotes but I think the point is clear. I'm open to altering the text in the lede, Privatemusings, but I really don't think we can just do-away with the term "jazz" altogether. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:46, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I think there's good basis for me to try and edit and drop it in here - I'm basically critical of the current wording in that it takes influences and has potential to confuse the reader in terms of genres - the influences in closing time, for example, are writ large, but do not, in my view, rise to 'orientation' - anyhwoo, busy times, busy lives etc. - I'll think about an edit to the lead and drop it in here before re-editing the article Privatemusings (talk) 03:26, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Personal life
Why is this section written in past tense? Dude's still alive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.198.42.133 (talk) 06:38, 5 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Pieces of it are in present tense: where he lives, how many children he has, etc. Much of the rest speaks to what he said, did, etc. years ago when those events happened. If there are specific pieces that you feel should be in present tense, either fix them or be more specific. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 19:56, 25 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Out of respect for Waits's wishes for privacy, I suggest removing the names of his children. We do not need to know these details. Acwilson9 (talk) 19:40, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

"Tom fucking waits" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Tom fucking waits. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 6 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  05:41, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

lead edit suggestion
A small change to the lead proposed;

His early work was strongly influence by jazz and beat poetry, and his output since the 1980s has reflected greater influence from blues, rock, vaudeville, and experimental genres.

See above for ratioale - the above is closer to the sourcing imo Privatemusings (talk) 04:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

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