Talk:Tom and Jerry (drink)

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dubious locality
I find the claim that it is limited to "the Upper Midwest" is dubious. I'm in Seattle and we know the drink very well. I could not tell you how many other people in Seattle know it, but our family has been drinking it for 3 generations, it is a Christmas tradition. My grandfather came from England, I suspect that he learned the recipe over there. Many years later he became a bartender, so there was at least one bartender in Seattle who could fix you a T&J. How widespread it is in Seattle I could not tell you, but I bet it's pretty common over in England. If you think about the promotion of the book, it makes sense that England heard about it too.


 * Yeah, the 'limited' label is misleading, as I have seen them sold at many Ski Resorts throughout New England, as well as in Northern New York, Pennsylvania and Ohio. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.79.246.70 (talk) 00:15, 17 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The source cited in re: "A Tom and Jerry is served primarily in Wisconsin and Minnesota, and is difficult to find outside of the Upper Midwest or Northern Rocky Mountain region" is sketchy at best as it uses Wikipedia as one of its sources. 74.79.246.70 (talk) 04:14, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Obviously discussing changes to the article here has no impact on certain editors when it comes to making changes to the article that suit them, simply because they choose to make the changes. Can folks simply change the meaning of sources? 74.79.246.70 (talk) 11:53, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed this statement. Hope I'm not breaking any rules. I was born and raised in California, and we, too, had Tom and Jerrys every Christmas. The batter was/is available in most liquor stores and many supermarkets at the holiday season. Over the years, I've had T&Js in Maryland and Arizona. The only reference for the location statement is anecdotal, from a blog. Just because someone says it and publishes it online, doesn't make it so. The fact that it may be hard to find the mix these days is probably due more to the drink having gone out of fashion rather than any regional bias. As to whether the only mixes are made in that region, I have no idea. Could be so but maybe not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zlama (talk • contribs) 08:25, 21 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Here is a source that says it's obscure outside Wisconsin: A Regional Oddball, Resurrected for Chilliest of Days Kendall-K1 (talk) 16:03, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

eggnog vs Tom and Jerry
I don't quite get this article/recipe... an "eggnog with brandy"  is just that... it's an eggnog. The thing that makes a T&J different from an eggnog is the folded eggs with sugar. if that were not the case you would never be able to claim that it is only available in the Midwest, because there is hardly a town in America where you can not buy pre-made eggnog by the half-gallon, at Christmas time. and plenty of people like to spike their eggnog with a little something extra. you can hardly call that unique. a spiked eggnog is NOT a T&J. If Egan introduced T&J as being a spiked eggnog then it needs to have a specific cited reference. otherwise the claim is bogus.

I read some of the references and found nothing to contradict my assertion that eggnog and tom and jerry are distinctly different drinks and should not be confused with each other as this article currently does. although the ingredients are similar, it's all in how you prepare them. For instance scrambled eggs and an omelet are not at all the same thing even though they can be made with the identical ingredients. same thing goes for T&J vs Eggnog. the eggnog is blended to a uniform consistency, but the T&J the egg whites are beaten separately from the yolks and then folded together. Both texture and taste of T&J are different from eggnog. How could they sell a T&J batter mix if it were identical to eggnog except for the brandy. reading the references, historically eggnog was mixed with a wide variety of alcohol even including wine... basically anything that was available. The key difference is that for T&J the yolks are separated from the egg-whites, in eggnog the whole egg is used.


 * I agree that the article isn't making the distinction very clear. However I don't think that the key difference you've named is a difference at all -- at least not categorically.  Eggnog is also frequently made with the yolks beaten (with sugar) as a separate step from beating the whites, and then they are folded together, just as you describe for a T&J.  I'm talking about non-commercial egg nog of course, and commercial eggnog is clearly made some other way, but a Google search confirms that eggnog recipes do often follow this pattern, and my suspicion is that in the past, all egg og was made this way.  It seems to me that while this is a requirement for T&J, it is no longer a requirement for eggnog; but eggnog which does it is just good eggnog, not misidentified T&J.  If I had to name something I think is different about the drinks, I would have said: a T&J is boozier and served hot while an eggnog is not quite as strong and is usually served cold (once again though, I don't think we could call this a categorical difference).   24.60.170.127 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 18:39, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Eggnog is almost a drinkable egg custard which may or may not be spiked. Tom and Jerrys, though having similar/the same ingredients have them in very different proportions. Also, it has been my experience every where I've had this, and that's on both U.S. coasts and Arizona, the T&J has been much lighter than eggnog, served warm and with beaten egg whites mixed in to lighten it further. When we were kids, we got our T&Js before the booze was added. And, not that it's a reference or anything, but I can't drink eggnog, makes me sick, but T&Js are fine. Different beasts.Zlama (talk) 08:32, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

eggnog vs Tom and Jerry 2
I would agree that the addition of brandy to rum wouldn't be enough to define a drink as a Tom and Jerry. Eggnogs often sport various liquors. Further, I don't think I would want to argue that the preparation of the eggs is really the defining feature. I have seen many eggnogs where the eggs are separated and the whites, whipped to stiff peaks, and then folded in with the other ingredients. Check the recipes at drinksmixer.com, for example. Many recipes for eggnog use that same preparation. It seems to me much more likely that the heat of the drink is most significant. I've never seen an eggnog served warm but Tom and Jerry seems to always be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RichardBeckwith (talk • contribs) 23:14, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

not a cocktail
Tom and Jerry is not a cocktail. It's a punch, as is eggnog. It may have alcohol added and be served in a glass, although a small mug is more common in my experience, but that doesn't make it a cocktail. By the definition here on Wikipedia, a cocktail contains an alcohol and one other ingredient. Since both egg nog and Tom and Jerry do not require the inclusion of an alcohol, they can't be cocktails. Also, since they're typically/often served in punch bowls, well... Zlama (talk) 08:48, 21 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The article was moved in August 2014 with no discussion and the comment "moved page Tom and Jerry (mixed drink) to Tom and Jerry (cocktail): More standard disambiguator". I'm going to move it back because, as you say, it's not a cocktail. Kendall-K1 (talk) 15:53, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I think you should have discussed this before moving it back, as we had consensus to leave it at "Tom and Jerry (mixed drink)". Agreed that there are sources that call it a cocktail, but there are also sources that don't call it a cocktail, and I think everyone can agree it's a mixed drink. Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:39, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Per the description of this subject on this article, as well as the description that Wikipedia has of the term "cocktail", I disagree. However, as a courtesy, I have reverted the move, and will start an official move request here shortly. Steel1943  (talk) 00:02, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Picture is not a Tom and Jerry
A Tom and Jerry is not brown. Like eggnog, it is a pale, milky color, slightly translucent where eggnog is opaque. Once an alcohol has been added, it may appear more beige, but it is never brown. And since it's usually served hot, you're not too likely to drink it through a straw. So, I'm not sure what that drink is, but it's not a T&J. Just look at the ingredient list. Can't be brown. Zlama (talk) 08:53, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing this out . Are you sure it isn't just the color of the mug it is being served in? This shows mostly white versions but there are a couple that are dark. It is possible that could a regional variation - maybe made with cocoa? I can't find any info about it at the restaurants website. I would say that if you can find a pic that you prefer please feel free to replace the one that is in the infobox. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 19:22, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The overall hue is just poor "white balance" of the original photo (typical of indoor photos taken under "warm" incandescent lighting). Plus, it was probably dim/reddish bar lighting, to boot!
 * The straw is a typical thin bar straw (the only kind on-hand at most bars) which serves in lieu of a stir stick. And, I agree with Marnette about Zlama's possible confusion by the opaque mug color: the only other "brown" I see is nutmeg! &mdash; DennisDallas (talk) 23:47, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Half ounce of brandy
It seems unlikely that ½ ounce is correct. That is what the source says, but a half ounce is not capable of "fortifying it [eggnog] considerably." You would barely notice that. Kendall-K1 (talk) 15:51, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, we don't know what kind of ounce it was, since the Imperial ounce had not yet come in to use. I put in a conversion from US fluid ounces, which should be close to whatever ounce was in use at the time. Kendall-K1 (talk) 02:12, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Recipe
The recipe we have is unsourced. I did change it to say both brandy and rum, as that's standard I believe. I have two sources here, DeGroff and Imbibe. DeGroff calls for eggs, sugar, cinnamon, cloves, allspice, rum, brandy, water, nutmeg. Imbibe calls for eggs, sugar, clove, nutmeg, allspice, brandy, rum, milk, water. The only major difference seems to be the milk. Kendall-K1 (talk) 01:28, 7 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Embury calls for rum and bourbon. Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:45, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 7 August 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved per   Dr Strauss   talk   20:51, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Tom and Jerry (mixed drink) → Tom and Jerry (cocktail) – Per the current description of the subject we currently have on Wikipedia at Cocktail, as well as the current description of this subject per its very own article, the topic of this article seems to clearly be a "cocktail" in terms of how we have the term "cocktail" defined. Per the opening of Cocktail: "When used to refer to any generic alcoholic mixed drink, cocktail may mean any beverage that contains two or more ingredients if at least one of those ingredients contains alcohol.", meaning that per Wikipedia's definition, the subject of this article is a cocktail since it has at least one alcoholic ingredient. In fact, there are several other articles which use the disambiguator "(Cocktail)": Martini (cocktail), Manhattan (cocktail), Cosmopolitan (cocktail), Godfather (cocktail), Vesper (cocktail), Sour (cocktail), etc. Also, the used of "(mixed drink)" as a disambiguator has next-to-no precedence; the only article I could find that uses "(mixed drink)" as a disambiguator is Prairie Fire (mixed drink). Steel1943 (talk) 00:04, 7 August 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. — usernamekiran (talk)   08:14, 14 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose – "cocktail" does not seem like a good disambiguator to me, since it's an ambiguous term itself. The use of "cocktail" to describe any drink with alcohol in it is relatively recent, and many people would not consider Tom and Jerry to be a cocktail. I don't find the WP:WAX argument convincing since most of those drinks actually are cocktails by anyone's definition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kendall-K1 (talk • contribs) 02:34, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The Cocktail article seems to say that the more strict definition of "cocktail" went by the wayside in the 1860s. Calling that "relatively recent" seems like an admirable application of Wikipedia's desire to present a long-term perspective, but I rather doubt that a more strict definition (mixtures that must contain spirits, sugar, water, and bitters and cannot contain anything else? – what definition are you using here?) is coming back or that anyone will be confused by the loose usage as a disambiguator, and some of the other articles that use "cocktail" as a disambiguator also seem to use the "relatively recent" definition. —BarrelProof (talk) 00:38, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Tom and Jerry would not have been considered a cocktail in 2002, when DeGroff wrote that "Ice is the soul of the American cocktail. Cocktails are shaken, stirred, and blended with ice." I stand by my statement that 15 years ago is relatively recent. Kendall-K1 (talk) 03:07, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
 * So it's not a cocktail because it doesn't use ice? The cocktail article and the dictionary definition don't say that, and Irish coffee doesn't use ice either, and it's an IBA official cocktail (and the list of official cocktails doesn't seem very long, so it's not an overly inclusive list). There doesn't seem to be any clear consistency about the definition here. —BarrelProof (talk) 05:31, 15 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Other editors have also maintained that this is not a cocktail (see, e.g., here). What about Tom and Jerry (drink) per WP:PRECISION?  —  AjaxSmack  02:15, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Or maybe it isn't a cocktail because it can be prepared without alcohol? The cocktail article and the dictionary definition don't say that, and a Piña colada can also be prepared without alcohol, and it's an IBA official cocktail. There doesn't seem to be any clear consistency about the definition here. Anyhow, "(drink)" seems OK too. —BarrelProof (talk) 05:31, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Nominator comment: I am okay with moving this article to Tom and Jerry (drink) as a compromise per WP:PRECISION. (In fact, I probably could say the same about most other articles which use "(cocktail)" in their disambiguators.) Steel1943  (talk) 05:27, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Drink
I don't see the discussion where we arrived at consensus to move this page to "Tom and Jerry (drink)". Where is that, and what's the reason? Kendall-K1 (talk) 00:46, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Origin
Five years ago an editor added, I think rightly, the tag "dubious - discuss" to the statement that "To publicize the book and the play, Egan introduced a variation of eggnog by adding 1⁄2 US fluid ounce (15 ml) of brandy, calling it a "Tom and Jerry". Nobody has come forward to "discuss" till now. I have been reading three biographical studies of Egan in the course of writing an article on his book, and there is no mention of his inventing such a drink, or indeed needing any publicity for an unprecedented, runaway best-seller. Nor is it even faintly likely that he would want to publicise the play, as it was an unauthorised rip-off of his novel. The source cited, "The Kitchen Project", does not cite any authority for the statement, and so far as historical research goes cannot, I think, be regarded as a WP:RS. I think we should remove the statement, rather than just leaving it there with the "dubious" tag.  Tim riley  talk   12:04, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Miller's Pub
The Tom & Jerry has been a holiday tradition at Miller's Pub in Chicago since 1935. The Miller's Pub version was featured in Esquire and Playboy. PlaysInPeoria (talk) 17:27, 18 December 2022 (UTC)