Talk:Tomoyo Daidouji

Sexual Orientation
You have no proff whatsoever about the same-sex "idol worship". I have heard people use alot of terms like platonic love, fake love and now  same-sex "idol worship". I wonder how much time was needed to come up with this one. But seriously I think using this term is kinda an insult against the orginal creators CLAMP. (That's what I think)

There is no comically-exaggeration. Whole CCS is a comic isn't it. So you could say this about all manga. And anime and manga is mostly drawn like this, the reason being to indicate a feeling or emotion.

Quit fooling around. A debate link?, if you don't know anything about the manga then don't speak and write. Their is nothing to debate about since it's overly clear >_<. But I know how people like you think.. I hope your not one of those anti-lesbians girls. Tomoyo has lesbian feelings and most probably allready is lesbian, period. What is your gain from all this anyway? CLAMP provided hints and it is also clear through the manga. Sadly enough apparantly not everyone can see these overly clear signs in their work.

Attempting to state something as if it were fact when nothing was ever confirmed is hardly a demonstration of honest presentation in any sense of the word. This article has too much bias by one of the editors.

Sorry, Tomoyo's sexuality is 100% debatable. I've heard some fans claim that Clamp has said in the past that she is lesbian, but they never provide a source for the statement. As far as I can ascertain, they've never said definitevely one way or the other.

For anyone interested, here's a link to a debate on Tomoyo's sexuality where both sides of the debate are presented reasonably fairly and without flaming. (I'm not 50Something Sensei.)


 * This link actually has much more evidence that she is in fact in love with Sakura. The evidence against that is in fact only western misintrepetation. Especially notice what the manga says, it in fact has Tomoyo state that she loves Sakura outright - and not as a friend. I wonder why lesbianism is always talked away even when the characters outright state it. It was confirmed by Clamp, twice(once in the interview mentioned below, once in another about the amount of Tomoyo's love), and also stated in the manga, around the capturing of the Flower.
 * Saying "I love my best friend" and saying "I want to have sex with my best friend" are to completly differnt things. (Animedude 22:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC))

One of the editors of this article is attempting to impose their viewpoint concerning Tomoyo's sexuality here as being Lesbian even though nothing was ever confirmed or denied by the creators, CLAMP.


 * I'll just restart the discussion here. Concerning a recent edit (19 May 2006), the article currently does not say that Tomoyo is a lesbian.  It just offers the speculation and notes how some fans will conclude it, but it is not a confirmed fact.  I don't think there's hard evidence in either the series or any of CLAMP's interviews (that I know of) on the subject, but the main point is that the article is currently quite neutral about it, right?  --Crisu 18:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * In a fictional article, I have always believed that observation of the show itself is a source. CLAMP has been known for putting such taboos in their other shows as well. This is far more than what is needed to make the statements that have been made.  I completely agree with Cirsu on this matter.  Our information comes from the observation of the anime, you can't except sources to be so cut and dry like they are in other articles. -- Ned Scott 21:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The article is still very NPOV, and it is transparent that there are still attempts at downplaying Tomoyo's sexuality. It was confirmed by clamp. This is not fan speculation.


 * Until the creators explicitly state things in a specific media, it remains merely speculation and any attempt to state otherwise is little more than weaseling. --Aldis90


 * In most cases there is no need to go to such lengths, and indeed few writers would be willing to particularly concerning works they have already completed. Not only is it unneccesary, but a creator's statement about a work years or even decades after the fact is not reliable or neccesarily even relevant. Also, unlike many western comics book writers CLAMP has some faith in the intelligence of even a juvenile audience. But one thing that is overlooked in ths discussion is that in CLAMP's body of wrk in general, and CCS in particular, the concept of "sexual orientation" is very far from a cut-and-dried thing; additionally, a large part of the theme of the series is the concept of "love" predating and transcending that of "sexuality" -- indeed, the bulk of the series is about all the forms love takes, from familial to romantic and every stage in between. Many western readers had great difficulty with that comncept; hence many of the controversies surrounding the characters of Toya and Kaho, not to mention Rika's engagement to Terada-sensei, and that is why the series had to be essentially pithed to get past the standards and practices of American television stations. That is why it is important, in discussing this series, to be cautious when it comes to categorical statements. If you were to ask CLAMP about this whole discussion, they would probably say (once they had taken the sake glass away from you) that the labels "gay" or "straight" were not something they were even thinking about in terms of their characters, because they didn't want such labeling to get in the way of the story they wanted to tell. The one thing that is clear is that for Tomoyo, sakura Kinomoto is "The One she Loves Best". She is clearly comfotrtable with the idea of that person being the same sex as she is. The question of whether she would seek sexual relationships with other women instead when she grows up is completely irrelevant to the topic and is the province of the fanwriter and doujin artist, not the encyclopedist. Michael Hopcroft 09:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It is interesting that the original Cardcaptor Sakura expresses same-sex relationships and the edited Western version does not when, statistically, Japan is not as accepting of same-sex coupling as Western society. I suspect it stems from the Japanese 'closet' culture.Rabbitlover 17:34, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV removal
The following paragraph:

"Most observers believe that CLAMP put in a yuri and shoujoai relationship in their work but that they did not intend to focus on this relationship later on and wanted to have a normal girl vs boy relationship to have the overhand. It's was merely impossible for them to finish the CCS series with a shoujo-ai relationship between Tomoyo and Sakura. Since they made the series for a younger audience. However they still wanted to keep open all possibilities for there fans, so they ended with an open end."

has been removed due to being excessively fan-speculative with no official support (though if such support exists, do provide it and link to it), argument inciting, and being really badly written. Also, various extraneous data (about Sonomi's relationship with Nadeshiko) has been removed, grammar has been cleaned up, and frankly there's no reason to Wiki-link to so many small words like "relationship", "feelings", and "mutual".

The article being now reworded to be more strictly factual and less interpretive, the NPOV warning has been removed. Put it back on if it still appears too not-neutral.

KLSymph 07:10, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Eraser Love
Oh, why can't the eraser get all the credit? =P (Rather it wasn't the eraser itself but Sakura's act of giving her a gift when she was in need.)  --Crisu 14:11, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * haha, I know, but it kind of made it sound like "oh, hey, if you give Tomoyo an eraser she'll be all over you for LIFE!" -- Ned Scott 19:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Interview reference
I finally found the source to that fact I remember about how Tomoyo was originally drawn to like Toya. Unfortunately, it turned out to be a fan-translation posted on LiveJournal rather than something in a more 'official' format. Nevertheless, it did come from an interview found in the Memorial Book (which I do own at home, so I can check the page number later on at least). The link to the translation is http://usomitai.livejournal.com/68511.html --Crisu 23:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Tomoyo initially was made to seem to like Toya. For example, in the first episodes, she blushed in his presence... but she blushed because Toya's ears remind her of Sakura, as herself said some time later. I don't think Tomoyo's infatuation with Sakura is debatable. During the manga, Tomoyo confesses a number of times, albeit shyly. Still, her mature behaviour when the subject gets serious hints that her feelings are not subject to POV.s She seems more confident about her feelings than a young adult like Toya.

Japanese same-sex adoration works differently - watch Utena [Even though it may seem that Wakaba is infatuated with Utena, she is in fact deeply in love with Saionji] for more details. --SatoshiMiwa 10:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Age?
I see no where in the article how old she is. how old is she? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Angelofdeath275 (talk • contribs).


 * Well, she's the same school year as Sakura, and Sakura is 10. -- Ned Scott 05:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

LGBT?
Either she's an LGBT character (and stays in the Category:LGBT characters in comics as well as the LGBTProject) or she's not (and both tags are removed). Comments? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 04:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Just because she might be a lesbian doesn't mean the article should be tagged with the LGBT project banner. This is the same logic I apply when removing banners for, say, WikiProject Hats when they decide to tag every article about someone who whore a hat. A character being gay does not make the article about being gay. It's out of the logical scope of the project, and adding the banner just adds to the over-tagging problem. -- Ned Scott 05:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Since you've removed the banner from at least four articles, and since you're not a member of the WikiProject, I'd like to take this to the WikiProject talk page. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 05:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * We don't have to take it there, WikiProjects have no authority on such matters. I'll likely leave a message there anyways, in hopes of defusing this misunderstanding (although I can get a bit hot headed and make things worse, I shall try to stay calm). A scope that includes any fictional character that says they're gay doesn't help WikiProject LGBT, it doesn't help the articles, and is just a bad way to think about a project's scope. Now there's this added complication that we're dealing with a controversial topic, but keep in mind I take this same approach for most projects that start mass tagging fictional-topic articles, when the project doesn't have a real relation with the topic of the article. -- Ned Scott 05:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * One of the reasons I think that any fictional character that says they're gay falls within our scope is precisely because there are so few such characters. It's kind of like saying Alan Turing doesn't belong to the project - his being gay certainly wasn't a big part of all that he accomplished.  But it is a factor in his article and is a part of the project. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs)  05:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Censorship
The article says Had such romantic elements towards Sakura existed, an uproar over the portrayal of yuri being shown to Western children would most likely have occurred. - this is too general and false. CCS aired (and is currently airing) in Brazil, with no censorship. AFAIK, Brazilian children are western children... Albmont 00:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

'Western' is most often used when talking about Europe and USA from my experience in which a uproar would most likely HAVE occurred. (Please note that I have NO CLUE how to add a comment properly so I don't know if something went wrong, Im just testing and hoping Im right) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.233.19.93 (talk) 20:17, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Also that sentence sounds like WP:OR - If a reviewer said this in a review, you could use that sentence. WhisperToMe (talk) 11:57, 15 October 2008 (UTC)