Talk:Tonkinese cat

== Photos ==

I added a couple of my Tonks, but they aren't the best shots to show body coloration and such. I hope others will feel free to add and/or edit the photos! My 3 are CFA registered, 2 of which are grand premiers in CFA. So they are good representations of the breed, at least in America. Tonks outside the US look a bit different.

The pile photo is a great one to show the classic Tonkpile though. The world over Tonks do this! These cats are always piled up with each other, especially in cooler weather.

Courtney


 * There is no such thing as a "flame point" tonkinese. The cat pictured is a tabby of some undetermined origin. Mooshimanx 22:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The word "volosed", when Googled, only returns this page. What is this word's meaning? --nic —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.11.55.242 (talk) 11:21, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it should probably be "short-nosed" but I'm not confident enough to change it. 12.39.246.34 (talk) 18:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a few pictures of my cat. He is a Tonks and he is fully stretched. Do you think having him sitting and flexed out would be all right? 71.142.214.138 (talk) 21:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)Rem

Accuracy of history referance to South Pacific
I researched this statement on the Tonkinese cat page. "Some claim that the appearance of the breed is closer to the original appearance of the Siamese, before Siamese breeders developed today's triangular head and very leggy body. The name is not related to the Tonkin region of Indochina. When the breed was first established in Canada, the breed name was actually spelled "Tonkanese," which was a reference to the island in the musical South Pacific where "half-breeds" suffered no discrimination. The mistaken idea that the name was a geographical reference paralleling the Siamese and Burmese breed names resulted in a gradual switch to the current spelling, under which the breed was recognized by the US registering associations."

I find some factual errors after having read the South Pacific musical script, watched the movie version, and read the book "Tales of the South Pacific" on which the musical is based.

There is no island called Tonkanese in the musical or book. The two main islands in the musical are Espiritu Santo which is the island the navy station was on and most of the action and the second island is Bali Ha'i. I could not find any reference to either island being described as where "half-breeds" suffered no discrimination. There are two characters in South Pacific called Bloody Mary and Liat. Both come from the country of Tonkin and were called Tonkinese. Tonkin was in the French area of China which we call today Viet Nam. They came on 3-5 year contracts to work on the plantations. Although the musical does not describe this in such detail as the book, the characters looked and dressed like Chinese and clearly were not local Polynesians. The word Tonkinese is only used to describe non-Polynesians Chinese looking people. So if a person first heard of Tonkinese from the musical, it was not a reference to an island and was a reference to people from Tonkin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Martino2000 (talk • contribs) 10:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Certainly correct here. Perhaps a misspelling (deliberate or accidental) by the Canadian folks involved? Or a misunderstanding about just what Tonkin was and how it might be used, slightly modified, in English? Or just confusion about just how factually based the book (and to a lesser etent, the musical and movie) were? ww (talk) 11:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I would like to see the name of a person and source for the statement that the name Tonkanese was in reference to an island etc. Many of us have searched for the person and circumstances. We have found no reliable source for this happening 40 some years ago including talking to Jane Barletta a US breeder mid 60s. Now folks are quoting this statement and we know it has inaccuracies. This statement said it had nothing to do with Tonkin and instead with just the name of an island related to half-breeds yet the characters in South Pacific were from Tonkin. I'm not doubting the name was first heard in South Pacific. THat is probably why it was mispelled. I'm just questioning the rest of the statement that it was an island and had nothing to do with Tonkin as it is inconsistent with the book, movie, and musical. So who gave it the name and when? BTW the book is accurate. Michener lived on the island during the war. It is a novel and the character are fictitious but the ethnic background of the Tonkinese character were familiar to him. He describes in great detail who and how these people worked in the island. They came from Tonkin. So who gave the breed the name Tonkanese and where did they say they thought it was an island and had nothing to do with Tonkin? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Martino2000 (talk • contribs) 21:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposed additions to the article
Hello. I'm new to Wikipedia, but have bred Tonkinese for 15 years, and there are a few inaccuracies. I corrected one; the photo captioned "a lilac mink Tonkinese" and changed it to Platinum. Lilac is a term used for Siamese not Tonks, although it is essentially the same coat color. Another problem with the picture is it's not a very good example of Platinum coat color. It looks more like Blue than Platinum. Might be a photo quality problem. I hsve quite a few photos I would be willing to share, but don't want to make major changes to the article without some feedback. For example, here's a Platinum queen with tiny Blue Mink kittens: http://www.tonkinesekitten.com/images/1%20Ariel%203%20weeks%20old%20babies_MG_8936.jpg

Here's a major change I'd like to make: " Within CFA, Tonkinese kittens born after January 1, 1984 cannot have Siamese or Burmese parents. All three breeds have changed a great deal since then and are substantially different today. Tonkinese breeders essentially try to emphasize many of the very characteristics that show-style Siamese and Burmese breeders bred out. If the breed were to start today from current (2014) Siamese and Burmese populations, the result would be a very different Tonkinese. All three gene pools are very different from 1984." This is from http://www.tonkinesebreedassociation.org/tonkgenetics.html

This leads to more I would like to add if consensus: There are now two types of Tonkinese out there. Type 1 follows the guidelines above, and results in a healthy, sturdier cat. It DOES NOT have any of the modern slender toothpick show-style Siamese in their bloodlines. BUT some breeders have in fact added show-style Siamese to their bloodlines. This results in a very different Tonk, in looks, personality and health. If there's no objection, I'd like to elaborate, with multiple references. Thanks.Deborahgaeila (talk) 20:22, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

On the name thing: multiple references say a breeder named Edith Lux was actually the on to propose changing the name from Golden Siamese to Tonkinese, in the mid 1960's. The Gulf of Tonkin is in close proximity to Myanmar (previously Burma - Burmese) and Thailand (previously Siam - Siamese) and Ms Lux felt it fitting that these cats have a name closely related to each of the breeds from which they were developed. Nothing about an island. I think the island thing is confusion that crept in somewhere. multiple refs here's one: www.catbreedsjunction.com/about-tonkinese-cats.htmlDeborahgaeila (talk) 20:32, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to add a bit to the history portion. Tonks really go back to the 1950's in the U.S. "In the 1950's, Milan Greer in New York City began breeding 'Golden Siamese,' a Siamese/Burmese hybrid, but discontinued his program by 1960 Greer, an owner of both a Siamese and a Burmese, had seen several unusual cats which, in appearance were somewhere between the two breeds, with a rich mahogany body and dark points. Having learned that these were normally destroyed as they were thought to be 'defective' and would not breed true, Greer launched a breeding program to determine whether, in fact, these cats would breed true. Following experiments on mice, he began crossing Seal point Siamese to Sable Burmese to produce the mahogany cat. By cross/breeding the offspring of the foundation cross, Greer (1961), by his own account, claims to have bred 'pure' for five generations, producing only chocolate brown cats with seal or dark brown points. Not being interested in showing cats, Greer abandoned the project once he felt he had proven himself. Greer's cats were enormously popular with pet buyers in New York City during the 1950's and early 1960's."  That last line is significant.  ref:   www.tonkinesebreedassociation.org/HistoryoftheTonkinese.htm

Tonkinese are paradoxically enormously popular with pet owners, but kind of, well shunted to the side at pet shows. Many judges admit that they simply do not know how to judge a Tonkinese cat. (yes I can ref that one) I think this page deserves some more love, for a cat that is highly in demand as a pet, and in fact makes a great pet. I have bred both show-style CFA Siamese and Tonkinese, and Tonks are a LOT more fun to live with. Yeah, I know personal cite, but I bet I can find multiple official sources, given today's Siamese & Burmese health and personality problemsm, some of which are cited in Wiki's own pages on those cats.Deborahgaeila (talk) 20:40, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi Deborahgaeila! I've taken the liberty of placing your comments in a separate section, as is customary on an article talkpage when a new topic is introduced, just to make things easier to follow. Rest assured I haven't changed your text in any way.


 * I'm the most recent editor to this page--which means I've basically done some copyediting to bring it in line with Wikipedia, ie. encyclopedic standards. Speaking from that POV, your proposed additions all seem very plausible (not to say genuinely interesting) and I'd be happy to support them. Just remember to keep to a neutral tone and make sure your references are to reputable, factually-oriented sources. I've gone through and edited a few of the cat breed articles now, and the one major problem I've noticed is a tendency to present information in an anecdotal, 'in-universe' style so to speak, as if to promote the cat rather than more formally present an overview of its history/characteristics. Understandable given the genuine affection obviously involved (you should hear me on the subject of my particular tortie shorthair!) but not quite the done thing on Wiki. :)


 * In particular, by all means clean up the images as you like. I've tried hard to find good clear representatives of the breed characteristics but the existing resources are a bit scanty, and I'm not overly attached to any of them. The "lilac"/platinum cat at the top is the only one I could find that clearly and neatly shows off a characteristic example of the breed (see the top photos on the Balinese and Abyssinian articles for much better examples) but I agree the colour's obviously a bit off, and I'm not too crazy about the leash, either.


 * Let me know if I can help in any way re: presentation or shaping the info --as I say, my expertise is in copy-editing, not in breed specifics, and in turn I'd be most interested in any guidance along those lines you can provide. Shoebox 2   talk  22:17, 10 July 2014 (UTC)