Talk:Tor missile system

name
this name (torus) continues the line of "geometry" names of SA systems: Kub (Cube), Kvadrat (Square), Krug (Round). --jno 09:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Operator: Myanmar
IISS Military Balance 2007 stated 48 units of Tor Missile System in Myanmar/Burma's order of battle. However, User:85.75.82.99 claim that his "friends" in Russian MOD has confirmed that is not to be true, but he has not provided any verifiable proof that this supposed confirmation from Russian MOD. Please do not make up stories to support your claim. IISS Military Balance is a prominent publication and their information are based upon Weapon transfer registered with United Nations. Okkar 12:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Because the deal is not confirmed yet from both Russia and Myanmar the correct is to add near to the numbers the word ,not comfirmed, to Tunguska, Tor M-1 and Buk M-1 SAMs. when then confirmed ,to remove the ,not confirmed,.

Libya
"Libya has decided to buy the Tor-M1. 20 Launchers to be ordered soon." Reference please. Bogdan 18:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

test —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.102.166.14 (talk) 14:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Syria
Deleted Syria from the list of operators, while referanced all accounts of Syrias use of TOR seem to originate from an Aviation Week article that miss-identified a recent shipment of PANTSIR for TOR.--Typhoon9410 (talk) 12:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was withdrawn. JPG-GR (talk) 02:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The article currently does not comply with the developed name convention of Russian SAM systems, should be "9K330 Tor" as opposed to "Tor Missile System" like "9K37 Buk", "9K33 Osa", "9K22 Tunguska" etc. --Typhoon9410 (talk)


 * I partially agree : The Tor Missile System (SA-15) is the 9K330. but here is a little problem :
 * Tor : 9K330
 * Tor-M : 9K331
 * Tor-M1 : (no name)
 * Tor-M2 : 9K332


 * All those variants would also require a separate article... What I suggest is to keep the current name and use it as a system family (a little bit like the S-300 family).


 * By the same token, The SA-6, SA-11 and SA-17 could be merged as the same system family... It kinda annoys me too to have multiple standards.
 * --Ŧħę௹ɛя㎥ 21:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thats a good point, its the problem of dealing with all these changing designations (had this problem with radars), even Tor Missile System is quite specific to one particular system, the 9K330. Though I agree it is the better "catch all" name for the whole family and that we should probably keep the current name. Merging SA-11 and SA-17 under "Buk Missile System" sounds good though I would be inclined to keep the Kub Missile System seperate, though they are closely related.Typhoon9410 (talk) 15:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

TLAR
"Each 9K331 vehicle is a completely autonomous transporter, launcher, and radar unit TLAR (smilar but not a TLAR) as it cannot move the missile) although it can be linked into a wider air defense system." This statement from the "Description" section needs to be clarified by someone who knows what a TLAR is. I don't, but there's obviously something wrong with this statement and the semi-compound parenthetical note. Oneforlogic (talk) 14:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Corrected TLAR to TELAR.Typhoon9410 (talk) 15:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "E" stands for Erector, which Tor is not. TLAR is OK. --Yuriy Lapitskiy ~ 20:55, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Georgia
Source that shows that georgia has Tor SAM is a YouTube video that contains russian generals speculations that georgia might have Tor systems.

Other sources, including russian ones, indicate that that Georgian used Buk-M1 to shot Ty22M.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw081808p2.xml&headline=Georgian%20Military%20Folds%20Under%20Russian%20Attack

Also, fact that Ty-22M was used for reconnaissance is desputed. Somw sources indicate that plain was used to bomb targets in georgia.


 * The combat history for this article was written during the conflict and does need an update, the interview is a good source for speculation around Tor in Georgia, but you are correct in that the source does not demonstrate its existance. Tor does not show up in any arms database either so I have changed the status to unconfirmed. As for the use of the Tu-22M, recon was the stated purpose of the aircraft in the interview at the time of its destruction. "so we needed aircraft recon, this is why we used this type of aircraft"Typhoon9410 (talk) 15:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

War Azerbaijan-Armenia

Footage released by azerbaijani sources on monday, 29th of September 2020 shows an armenian Tor-missile system in a lightly fortified, immobile position with its radar active destroyed head on by an azerbaijani aircraft or (Israeli made) drone, obviously without taking any measure of defence against the incoming havoc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.20.135.228 (talk) 14:41, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Rewrite
I've just completed a major rewrite of the article, fixing up grammar, spelling and sentence structure, to make the article more readable. Kudos to all who have worked on this article, it's a diamond in the rough. Just needs a bit more polishing, but the substance is there. If we can get few more references, I reckon we can get this to B-class.

As always, my edits are open to revision, scrutiny, and criticism. Sarcastic ShockwaveLover (talk) 06:12, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Good rewrite, reads well, minor changes I made.
 * Finally got a source for the PGM statement.
 * Included Kinzhal trials ship class as I think its interesting to know what vessels are used during development, for Russia it generally involved grafting the new system onto an older vessel, S-300F as another example.
 * The 9A330 is the designation of the Tor TELAR as the complete unit, which is based on the GM### MMZ chassis.
 * The aquisition radar (top parabolic) and engagment radar (frontal phased) should be detailed as two seperate radar, in the text they seemed to have become merged.
 * Georgia has not yet been proven as operating Tor, Nogovitsyn was speculating on a cause for the Tu-22 loss.Typhoon9410 (talk) 14:07, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the feedback, I had a look back, and you're right, it appears I turned 2 radars into one. If only that were possible =}. I'm assuming you can read Cyrillic, so I'll take your word on that source. I'm also having a scout around some of the English sites and books, so I'll see if I can find some more. Once this one's done to everyone's satisfaction, I'll move onto the SA-1, then 2, etc. Sarcastic ShockwaveLover (talk) 04:50, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Place: Soviet Union?
Someone repeatedly writes "Soviet Union" in the table field for "Place of origin". The SU seized to exist in 1991, and the field is not called "originally developed in" or something like this. Please comment - or stop changing it from "Russia". --Bernd vdB (talk) 19:41, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Its an interesting debate as to what "Place of origin" should stand for, the SU or Russia. The field does not specify any time point, be it current or original so both are technically valid. Personally I would prefer to use SU as it was first place chronologically and I feel it fits better the definition of origin "the place where something begins" and Tor began in the SU. Additionally if Russia is used then it gives the impression the system was developed post-1991, like for example Pantsyr which is false. Anyone else?Typhoon9410 (talk) 21:44, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "Place" in my understanding refers to a physical coordinate more than to a time coordinate, but english is not my mother language, so correct me if I'm wrong. BTW the text says precisely where and when the different developement steps took place. The systems that are in use now are definitely russian. --Bernd vdB (talk) 23:01, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * They are indeed and I would consider the Tor-M2 and Tor-M1-1 to be "Russian" Tor, but the place of origin for the Tor-M1 and Tor was the Soviet Union, as first in the order I would put SU as place of origin. I think it is more correct to use the original location even if it doesnt technically exist today, your origin does not change with time. For example someone would say "I was born in the Soviet Union" it would be less correct to say "I was born in the Russian Federation" because the Russian federation did not exist when the person was born.Typhoon9410 (talk) 21:15, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The article is about the whole group of systems, and none of those are unchanged from soviet time. Would you also mark a car with this background as "place of origin: Soviet Union"? Strange. --Bernd vdB (talk) 01:10, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, if we had a all-encompassing article on a series of cars that were initially designed and manufactured within the Soviet Union then its origin would be the Soviet Union. It is no coincidence on en.wikipedia I think, that all pre-1991 Russian weapons carry the SU as their place of origin.Typhoon9410 (talk) 11:42, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, so then you should consequently add this kind of wisdom to articles like Lada Niva - where the soviet origin is not mentioned with one word. Otherwise people might forget the importance of history ... --Bernd vdB (talk) 11:48, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, had I any interest in the article I would edit it accordingly, though the automobile infobox appears to neglect an origin heading anyway. Do we have a consensus on the nature of "place of origin"?Typhoon9410 (talk) 23:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I was just mentioning "Lada Niva" in order to illustrate how far fetched the argument is. --Bernd vdB (talk) 17:08, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Im just trying to illustrate the meaning of the term "place of origin" for you, it is certainly trivial but im sorry you believe it to be far fetched. As said it is no conincidence that all other pre-1991 articles carry SU as their origin (limitations of the automobile infobox accepted) becuase the SU was the place where Tor came into being, it doesnt matter that the SU no longer exists today. How do you believe that by presenting Tor as originating in the post-1991 Russian Federation is more correct than the 1986 SU when it was actually introduced?

One more attempt at an illustration, the R-36 missile was developed by Yuzhnoye in what is now the Ukraine but the R-36 place of origin was the SU because Ukraine did not exist when the missile was developed. The origin of the R-36 as with any other example does not update itself with the times.

However to just get this tiresome issue resolved I have edited the place of origin to Soviet Union (Russia) which appeases everyone.Typhoon9410 (talk) 11:14, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Range?
Janes has this range at 15km vice 500km Birdman93 (talk) 16:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It's short-range. --Yuriy Lapitskiy ~ 21:00, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The vehicle transporter range is 500 km vs Missile range of 15km. Other Wikipedia missile articles have this problem too, which I guess is a carry over from Jane's Derrymobile 22:30, 5 May 2015


 * == Operators ==

That section seems to be unbalanced, one should really arrange the sources properly. Bladesmulti (talk) 14:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Why isn't Igor listed as an operator of the TOR missile system? TaffyMike79 (talk) 18:39, 11 March 2022 (UTC)


 * He really should be. 50.216.230.194 (talk) 18:46, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Igor has one! 2A01:C22:6EDA:C200:153F:C938:BCAF:74F1 (talk) 20:22, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Someone keeps reverting it. Why is this information being suppressed? SteubenGlass (talk) 22:43, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Can someone add Igor back on the current operator? Stop vandalizing the page by removing him.
 * https://i.imgur.com/3rbyhWR.png 2001:4654:2088:0:C11A:81A7:4624:9DDE (talk) 15:53, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Guys, wihtout him this page isn't complete. 188.146.32.38 (talk) 20:49, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Analogs significantly worse than Tor $)
Analogs significantly worse than Tor

Layout
I can't figure out where the missiles are in the vehicle: do they launch from the slanted panels on the edges, or are they concentrated in the center? The panels look like doors, but it doesn't seem like there's enough space under them to fit a 10ft missile vertically. Are they laid out in a line, with two 4-missile boxes edge-to-edge, or are they clustered side by side in two rows of four? And where do the crew sit? It looks like it must be very cramped. Are they all located in the front of the hull? Also, why does the whole top turn? I thought it was a fixed unit until I saw the photo of the wheeled unit on the bottom. It's a vertical launch system, so why does it need to turn to face the target? I know the radar needs to face the target, but they could just mount the radar on its own pivot and make the missile launcher stationary in the chassis. Seems like it'd be a lot simpler. Are the missiles designed to only turn in one direction when they are fired, to make them simpler, so they have to be properly oriented in the right general direction before they are ejected from the launcher? I know naval missiles can turn in any direction after launch...or I assume they can...but that makes them a little more complex. I guess the question is is it better to make the missile more complex or the launcher more complex? AnnaGoFast (talk) 00:49, 28 April 2016 (UTC) (BTW, I'm changing the bit where the person is declaring that the Tor is "obviously superior to analogues, as can be seen by comparing charts" (to paraphrase). The tone is wrong, such things shouldn't be stated as fact, they should be stated as "So-and-so BELIEVES/JUDGES/CONSIDERS the Tor missile system to be superior". It's not Wikipedia's place to state who is the best, or who "wins". You can report that someone ELSE calls them the best, but that's it. You don't say "the Ferrari 468 is the best car in the world", you say "Automobile magazine has judged the Ferrari 458 the 'best car in the world'". Besides, I'll check out the references they gave, but if it's just a couple of charts "proving" his/her point, I'm deleting it as original research. I've found this on a couple other articles, armchair experts evaluating systems and declaring them the best based on the numbers they found. That's not good enough for Wikipedia. AnnaGoFast (talk) 00:49, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Incorrect image linked to Tor system
The image with the description of "SA-N-9 firing from the Kirov class cruiser Frunze." is actually showing the PK-2 decoy launcher launching flares.

http://militaryhistory.x10.mx/shippictures/kirov%20class/kirov%2001.jpg

13 - ПУСКОВЫЕ УСТАНОВКИ ВЫСТРЕЛИВАЕМИХ ПОМЕХ = decoy launcher

You can clearly see the bow of the Frunze here:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Kirov-class_battlecruiser.jpg

The SA-N-9 was never installed on it (they were only installed on Pyotr Velikiy and only on its stern) - the bow SA-N-9 launchers would go on these two large square panels. You can see from the incorrect photo that the launch is taking place just behind the RBU launcher and this is the structure housing the decoys.

So, the image needs to be removed from the Tor wiki page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ijozic (talk • contribs) 10:23, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

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HQ-17 (China Variant)
The following statement "Unlike the Tor system, the HQ-17 incorporates an IFF array on top of an electronically scanned array radar, modernized electronics, a new all-terrain launcher, and the ability to datalink with other china systems" is highly misleading. Chances are the editor that put the information paraphrased it wrongly. Both Russian and Chinese Tor system have the same antenna configuration albeit conforming to different military standards. It reads much better if the "unlike" is changed to "like", to reflect the superficial similarity between the two. Or if we want to reflect the source properly, the statement should be changed into, "In comparison to Tor system, HQ-17 is similar in form and function except that it uses Chinese custom electronics...." or something close to it. We can see HQ-17 isn't that different from the outside compared to Russian Tor, on the same source cited for the misleading statement. The current statement implied the original version do not have an IFF antenna and electronically scanned array radar which is clearly not the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.138.189.149 (talk) 23:19, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

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New operator
Twitter link: https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1501938378878558220?s=20&t=Tn9VLl_8--YqXMbhDN0MvA Could we add Igor as a new operator of the TOR missile system? I think we should also add Ukrainian farmers as they have conquered a few. Waerth (talk) 16:15, 10 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't understand why there is so much cope against listing Igor under current operators. To the first point that "there needs to be a better source than twitter". If that's the case then why is North Korea listed as a TOR missile system operator with no sources? Why is Cyprus on the list of operators if the source for them operating the TOR broken? And to the second point, I don't think I even have to express how ridiculous it is to suggest that the weapon system has to be verified as operational to be put on the list. Its a slippery slope which could justify the removal of almost every single operator from the list. Tsparkst (talk) 00:10, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

I think this deserves discussion. If the systems are actually in private possession, surely that should be documented. Thoerner (talk) 19:14, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Let Igor have the property. It is privately owned vehicle. There are many cases of operators of vehicle/aircraft recorded in the hands of civilian. Kadrun (talk) 23:26, 10 March 2022 (UTC) Totaly agree Igor should be on the list! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.252.111.229 (talk) 08:28, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

At the very least this needs a much better reference than Twitter. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 10:51, 11 March 2022 (UTC)


 * It would be hard to get a better reference given the current circumstances. I think the picture of him next to one is evidence enough? I suspect there will be many more Ukranian farmers coming into possession of such pieces of equipment. Good to document.Gruffmeister (talk) 11:43, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

We don't know if it's really working with the picture. Maybe it abandonned because it's broken and so, useless. Even if he clearly has one, we can't know if he already has this one and if it's a real working weapon Elikill58 (talk) 12:46, 11 March 2022 (UTC)


 * you dont know if any of them are working. North Korea? really? we have verified that? good sources? it works? 74.83.106.216 (talk) 19:25, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Support but wait 1. Need a source other than twitter, 2. Not confirmed if it is fully operational or not. Otherwise, I don't see why not, but that may open the floodgates for other similar military equipment to have civilian possessions added as operators, perhaps a general designation of "Ukrainian Citizen" or "Ukrainian Militia" for all captured operational equipment, because more than a few have been captured (like that titktok of group of civs driving a tank). JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 15:43, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Taking possession or owning a device is not the same as being an operator, I don't think Igor is going to have a ready supply of ammunition, spare parts, maintenance schedules etc to really be considered as an operator. As much fun as it would be to list individual farmers, I think the article would be more useful if it just listed working TOR devices that we can confirm have passed into the hands of the Ukraine military Paraphrased (talk) 00:44, 12 March 2022 (UTC)


 * By that definition, Russia isn't an operator either. 202.153.215.203 (talk) 20:21, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Would it be worth it to try and reach out to the account who originally made the tweet (‪@oryxspioenkop‬), and ask if there’s any more information regarding “Igor”? A tweet from an unverified account, despite the ≈200k followers said account has, isn’t exactly a reliable source. At least, as far as I know. Kotobdev 01:39, 12 March 2022 (UTC)


 * https://twitter.com/Orxan_012/status/1502885319124869131 new proof, it looks fully operational with ammo (second video) Mrcartinez (talk) 09:58, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Could we perhaps create a new article for civilian ownership of military vehicles? If one doesn’t already exist that is Halalgladiator69 (talk) 15:05, 12 March 2022 (UTC) seemed like a reasonable approach to this. Sure, it needs better references, but then, we're relying on youtube for other references. I think this is something that could be reinstated and expanded, but needs better references. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:36, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose of course. Twitter is not a reliable source. Also, captured Russian equipment may be being turned over to the Ukrainian military and not kept by the civilians. If we get a proper news organization source, we can perhaps add a sentence somewhere about this kind of equipment sometimes being captured by civilians during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. – Novem Linguae (talk) 17:07, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I fail to see Twitter being an unreliable source in this instance; the user is the author of a book published by Helion, and plenty of news articles cite his Tweets and blog as sources. Are we to wait around until a news article cites his Tweet on Igor instead of just citing it for this article? UncleBourbon (talk) 17:34, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:RSPTWITTER. Yes, we should wait around until reliable sources cover this. Better to keep unverified information and WP:UNDUE information out of the encyclopedia, than publish it and get it wrong. Encyclopedias are tertiary sources, which means their content should be built upon secondary sources such as news organizations in order to get the WP:WEIGHT right. Twitter is a primary source. – Novem Linguae (talk) 17:53, 13 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I think there's a danger of it being misinformation and undue due to poor sourcing. But seems like I'm in the minority. No worries. I've reinstated it. – Novem Linguae (talk) 22:45, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Agree particularly with the sourcing issue. I like the approach with the subsection and context, more than I do the referencing. But let's see how this goes. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:55, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks all. It leaves space for further developments. Sgnpkd (talk) 15:46, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Maybe we just put "several were allegedly repossessed by civilians" at the buklet point for Ukraine. Just spitballing. AwkwrdPrtMskrt (talk) 05:02, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Igor
There is no aviable proof that Igor has lost acces to his TOR missile system so dont act like a nerd. Igor from Ukraine (talk) 15:32, 12 March 2022 (UTC)


 * @Igor from Ukraine Agreed LeoneH (talk) 20:38, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Add private ownership section
To follow on the Igor discussion, I believe it would be more worthwhile to add a private ownership section, dedicated to commercial operators of TOR systems. Similar sections exist for comparable military equipment.

Specifically, due to the significant amount of Russian equipment lost over the last few days, there will be a large number of TOR systems in private ownership. It is worthwhile to note these 12.138.28.14 (talk) 15:32, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

A few news sites have picked up on the "Igor from Ukraine" story - do these count as good enough sources? At least it's a step up from twitter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.64.167.72 (talk) 23:26, 12 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately Daily Star (United Kingdom) is not a reliable source, per WP:NPPSG. – Novem Linguae (talk) 21:01, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Add private ownership section
To follow on the Igor discussion, I believe it would be more worthwhile to add a private ownership section, dedicated to commercial operators of TOR systems. Similar sections exist for comparable military equipment.

Specifically, due to the significant amount of Russian equipment lost over the last few days, there will be a large number of TOR systems in private ownership. It is worthwhile to note these 12.138.28.14 (talk) 15:32, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

A few news sites have picked up on the "Igor from Ukraine" story - do these count as good enough sources? At least it's a step up from twitter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.64.167.72 (talk) 23:26, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. casualdejekyll  12:49, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 March 2022
Change "an Ukrainian civilian" to "a Ukrainian civilian" under "2022 Russo-Ukrainian War" NoahT07 (talk) 12:45, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:54, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 March 2022
The performance of the system in the Ukrainian conflict is not accurately portrayed in the combat history section. The information about Russian variants being towed is also incorrect. KingLar2010 (talk) 17:10, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:13, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Another guy on the talk page about Igor
Found a guy who put a message on the wrong section of the talk page. I shall reproduce his post here, verbatim. hello. can i put in igor who found a abandoned one. as i think i found a good source. https://meaww.com/ukrainian-man-on-a-stroll-claims-20-million-15-million-russian-9-k-330-tor-tank-abandoned-in-forest

Ninjaxavier (talk) 17:43, 14 April 2022 (UTC) Meaww only has Wikipedia and the original Tweet as sources, and is therefore not reliable. In addition, this discussion seems to have appeared before already. I think, if we can find a reliable source, we should add to the Ukraine count the number of civilians in possession of these.

‎3K95 Kinzhal (naval variant)
I removed File:Soviet Udaloy class destroyer Admiral Vinogradov (1990).JPEG because I think the image is irrelevant and its caption is wrong. "SA-N-9 launcher on the Udaloy-class destroyer Admiral Vinogradov" - some editor thought Kinzhal missile compartment was the white structure ahead of 100-mm guns. I found a drawing of Udaloy destroyers online (in Russian, 1st part and 2nd part ), according to it, that white structure (#2) is "вентиляторные" (ventilyatornyye - 'fan' per Google, likely the fans of some ventilating system). Centaur271188 (talk) 06:09, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Self reverted . Centaur271188 (talk) 09:31, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

morocco
there was and is no evidence that morocco posseses TOR Missile systems. 92.218.146.145 (talk) 22:06, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Did they steal Igors stolen System?
I know for a fact Igor still owns one of these Bxalber (talk) 13:59, 16 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Ukraine is listed as an Operator. If anything on the found Tor is salvageable, it was likely requisitioned and cannibalized.
 * Now, to the Admins; over the past year this page has been flooded by people spamming about this "Igor". Have editors gone insane? You told them multiple times to "Stop It" and they forced you to lock the page due to their childish vandalism.
 * The only confusion I have is, if the Tor was an Abandoned Russian Unit, why didn't they demolish it? A timed charge to the missile compartment would wreck almost everything & only take a few seconds to accomplish.69.204.89.52 (talk) 16:59, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Not really related, but in the fog of war, sometimes the Russians really want to flee before they get captured, so they have no time to destroy it. And, even if it was destroyed, this "Igor" may still be able to salvage parts from the Tor. and per Bxalber, I do believe that "Igor from Ukraine" is still in possession of the Tor. - Editor 5426387 (talk) 02:56, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2023
Igor From Ukraine this may sound like a joke, but seriously a guy from Ukraine found a SAM system while walking in the woods and now he owns it Domino317 (talk) 05:19, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 07:12, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @Domino317, Here are some reliable sources that may support the change you may want.
 * https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/ukrainian-man-on-stroll-forest-26442197
 * https://www.watson.ch/international/faktencheck/176174109-faktencheck-zu-ukraine-krieg-igor-und-das-9k330-tor
 * https://meaww.com/ukrainian-man-on-a-stroll-claims-20-million-15-million-russian-9-k-330-tor-tank-abandoned-in-forest
 * Needless to say, this is very much a joke, but this is just going to help you out a little. Editor 5426387 (talk) 03:02, 18 June 2023 (UTC)