Talk:Torchwood/Archive 3

Cast and Crew
There seem to be several problems with the table noting the cast of Torchwood (I mean the one part way down the article, not the infobox); I currently note:
 * Harkness is listed as 2006 to present, but Ianto Jones is listed as 2006 to 2009; however Children of Earth implies that both have left
 * Listing present is a bit odd anyway, as the article may date
 * Martha is listed as 'Guest medical officer', which isn't really a role at all...: No reference is made to the radio plays
 * Martha is listed, but Suzie is not - however Suzie was definitely billed as a starring role
 * Cooper is listed as second in command, but at one point Harper was second in command, this is not mentioned

I suggest that as most of the information is more accurately described in the text, this table be removed and a separate article (similar to, but possibly better organised than the List of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel cast and crew) is written detailing who was starring, guest starring, and so on. PoisonedPigeon (talk) 04:01, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Let's see what I can answer from those:
 * We have no sources that told us Harkness has left the show, so there is no reason to change that. Jones on the other hand was killed on-screen and can as such be presumed to be not returning.
 * If the article dates, the listings are changed accordingly.
 * Says who? She was credited in reliable sources, which is what is important for inclusion.
 * Actually, they are mentioned under "Spin-offs".
 * If I recall correctly, Suzie is never billed as a starring role in the first episode, is she?
 * Cooper is "second in command" as of aforementioned "present". Harper's stint as second in command is mentioned on Owen Harper accordingly.
 * We have articles for all major characters anyway, so the table just serves as a quick access to those articles. List of Torchwood characters has a complete overview. I do not think the Buffy/Angel list is comparable to Torchwood though, they have a much more changing cast that needs a different list style. Regards  So Why  09:40, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, Indira Varma (Suzie) WAS given full credit on the first episode; this was to not tip off the casual viewer about the twist on her character at the end of that episode. Radagast (talk) 03:32, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think Bryan Dick (Adam Smith) was credited in the opening titles in "Adam" - also due to the nature of his character in the episode Etron81 (talk) 14:16, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If this is the case (I cannot remember), we need some reliable sources that state why those opening title credits are unlike the others. Yes, we know why they did it but we need a source to write it in the article. Regards  So Why  21:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope, he didn't appear. Just rewatched DBD 22:06, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Series 4? (Rfc)
Series 4 is far from confirmed, despite a few sites jumping the gun with their selective quoting. The quote in question is:

"It's too early," Davies said. "We haven't even sat down for meetings on (the new season) yet."

That can also be taken as RTD saying that no decision has been made. He is also quoted on the TheStar.com as saying "I do hope we can keep that going," Davies affirms. "It's not commissioned yet ... I really hope it will come back in some shape or form."

Way too early to say for sure that it has been given the green light. magnius (talk) 14:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The later quote I posted today has TV Squad say "It was a huge ratings success in the U.K. and fared well on BBC American in the U.S. So, the Beeb is giving it a longer run."~ZytheTalk to me! 15:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have read a few quotes, from various sources, and not one has directly implied that the fourth series has been given the go ahead. I'm sure that there will be a fourth series, but just like the "The End of Time" title, I can't help but see a lot of wishful thinking and misreading. If there is a consensus that the quote is a confirmation, then I am happy to go along with its addition, I'd just be happier with an RTD quote saying that it's been confirmed in a far less ambiguous manner. magnius (talk) 15:19, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Direct from the BBC:

"Although there's no announcement about Torchwood's future, its creator was hopeful we'll see it return. Fingers crossed!" magnius (talk) 15:42, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The above quote seems to be the BBC summarizing (without quotes) what RTD said at the convention, it may not be what the BBC is saying, officially. Gmatyola (talk) 19:21, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sure the BBC know if they have commisioned it or not, they are clearly saying not. magnius (talk) 19:22, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * But BBC News have no idea what the execs at BBC Wales are doing until that is announced formally.~ZytheTalk to me! 19:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Then surely it's best to wait until it's been announced formally? This is the official BBC Doctor Who site saying that it has not been commisioned, about as reliable as it gets. magnius (talk) 22:03, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was not disagreeing with you.~ZytheTalk to me! 09:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's just flat-out too early for comments in the article one way or the other. I would have been surprised if they commented one way or the other before now; they're likely still crunching numbers as well as likely waiting to see what happens with the upcoming Doctor Who episodes. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 16:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I completely agree. The quote from Comic Mix (are they a reliable source? Doubt it) is attributed to an unnamed "BBC America rep" and is just hearsay. Until there is an official announcement of a fourth series from the BBC press office, it shouldn't be in the article.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:32, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm agreeing with you all. Until there is an official press release from the BBC, Season Four is not official nor confirmed. --Clarrisani (talk) 14:09, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Now officially announced and added to article. magnius (talk) 17:50, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I consider "New World" to be a spin-off myself given its structure, but it's the BBC's word that matters. --Clarrisani (talk) 10:51, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

International broadcasts
...should be limited to English speaking countries, or removed all together, lest the article be filled up with every conceivable country that airs the show. We are not a TV guide. (And no, I did not remove Australia.) — Edokter  •  Talk  • 15:25, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, we could limit the detailed info to English speaking countries and have one subsection for the rest, where we only say something like "Torchwood is also broadcast in the following countries". --Six words (talk) 16:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Why? Simplify the entries, or do what most articles do and put them in a table, but there's no reasonable reason to limit them to English. Torchwood is show in far fewer countries than many TV shows, and they seem to manage to list international distribution.  What's so special about Torchwood that its list should be limited to English only? Drmargi (talk) 16:28, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It looked like Australia was removed - I apologise, I should have examined the diff more carefully (but then again, there was no reason for you to remove the alphabetisation). I'm with Drmargi - just because this is English Wikipedia doesn't mean it shouldn't cover international showings (just as Wikipedia covers international subjects), so your reasoning was very poor on that score.  As for WP:NOTDIR, your second reason - I don't think that quite applies - plus the list is small, and although I think it should probably be condensed into larger sections (such as Europe), it's both fine and interesting to see where Torchwood is screened across the world. Stephenb (Talk) 17:06, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Country of Origin: Wales vs. Great Britain
Wales is a country, it's where the show is located. From the UK article: "The United Kingdom is a constitutional monarchy and unitary state consisting of four countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales". I'm unable to find a citation for either, though. - JeffJonez (talk) 02:10, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Wales is a dependency of the UK; whatever the country it is made in, however, the maker is the national broadcaster of the UK and the standard for all TV shows is to have UK rather than England, Scotland, Ireland or Wales. I believe there's some Project somewhere that defines it, but suffice to say that's the consensus. Stephenb (Talk) 07:23, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The "maker" is specifically BBC Wales. Shiroi Hane (talk) 12:54, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Which is a subsidiary of the BBC for which it makes its programmes (and is payed for by the UK licence fee). Stephenb (Talk) 13:17, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * By this logic, the country is then the European Union. This is simple: the UK is a sovereign state, but not a country. "Consensus", "ownership" or "dependency" is irrelevant, only the definition of what a "country" is. Can someone find a citation to refute Wales as the country of origin? - JeffJonez (talk) 21:11, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It certainly can't be Great Britain, which is the island made up of England, Scotland and Wales. Welshleprechaun (talk) 15:03, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It is made in Wales, by BBC Wales, but for the United Kingdom. If it was made in England, it's country of origin would not be England, it would still be the UK. W93 (talk) 21:17, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Why not acknowledge both countries as a compromise? Welshleprechaun (talk) 21:40, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes but Wales is a part of the UK, therefore it wouldn't make sense if it said Wales/United Kingdom. W93 (talk) 21:43, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Because compromise doesn't make something a country. While in it's own terminology, Wales may be identified as a country, by consensus of the definition of the word "country" and the reality of international affairs, Wales is not a country as the term is being used in this Wikipedia article.  --Human.v2.0 (talk) 16:20, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Where can I review this 'consensus'? The Wikipedia article for Wales says it's a country, and the article for United Kingdom says it's a collection of four countries. - JeffJonez (talk) 20:33, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland[13] (commonly known as the United Kingdom, the UK, or as Britain) is a sovereign state located off the northwestern coast of continental Europe. It is an island country,[14][15] spanning an archipelago including Great Britain, the northeastern part of Ireland, and many small islands." The United Kingdom is a country. Tim! (talk) 21:24, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The United Kingdom is a country, and Wales is a country - it's a varied term used to mean a geographical region, see the Wikipedia article "Country". However, the Television Infobox mentions Country of origin which has various definitions in laws of different countries, but should generally be United Kingdom. PoisonedPigeon (talk) 17:42, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Its funded by all of us who pay the UK licence fee. Its a UK show. JeffJonez's EU argument makes no sense at all. As someone who has studied the EU in detail, I can see that he doesn't seem to know what it really is, but that's neither here nor there. This English/Scottish/Welsh nationalism is getting ridiculous now. Zestos (talk) 00:16, 15 December 2009 (UTC)


 * We know that both Wales and the UK are countries - but in different ways. The independent sovereign state that is a member of the EU and has a seat at the UN is the UK - which is what is meant by the "Country" field on the template. I'm as patriotic as the next Welshman, but factual accuracy comes first. Welshleprechaun (talk) 13:54, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

The Wiki pge for BBC Whales States "BBC Cymru Wales (also known as English: BBC Wales or Welsh: BBC Cymru) is a division of the British Broadcasting Corporation for Wales. Based at Broadcasting House in the Llandaff area of Cardiff, it directly employs over 1200 people, and produces a broad range of television, radio and online services in both the Welsh and English languages.[1]

Outside London, BBC Wales is the largest BBC production centre in the United Kingdom, partly due to its additional slate of Welsh language programmes for BBC Radio Cymru and the Welsh language broadcaster S4C." Further more the main BBC Wiki page states "The British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) is the largest broadcasting organisation in the world.[1] Its global headquarters are located in London and its main responsibility is to provide public service broadcasting in the United Kingdom, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. The BBC is an autonomous public service broadcaster[1] that operates under a Royal Charter.[2] Within the United Kingdom its work is funded principally by an annual television licence fee,[3] which is charged to all United Kingdom households, companies and organisations using any type of equipment to record and/or receive live television broadcasts;[4] the level of the fee is set annually by the UK Government and agreed by Parliament.[5]" Clearly as far as broadcasting goes the UK is the country in this situation. No offence the the people of Whales but this is a matter of legal jurisdiction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Warmaster1 (talk • contribs) 23:25, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Fourth season casting and sources
An editor added information about the addition of three new characters to Torchwood, gleaned from a very reliable American entertainment publication that is widely referenced in articles about television programs here on Wikipedia. He was quickly reverted by another editor who cavalierly labeled the author as a "gossip monger" and has arbitrarily decided that the BBC press office is the only reliable source for such information. I recognize that European editors may not be familiar with American entertainment media, or the way casting of programs produced wholly or in part in the US is generally released, but this publication is highly reliable and is one of two common conduits for release of such information. I have now reverted the removal of this edit, had my own revert reverted, and now restored it with a second reference to the single most reliable entertainment news outlet in the US. I would encourage editors to recall that Torchwood is now to be produced in collaboration with Starz!, and American premium cable network, which has clearly released this information to the media in a very routine fashion. This piece of news does appear in reliable sources, and removing it from the article is not justified under WP:RS. Unless an editor can produce evidence the casting news is in error, it should remain in the article. Drmargi (talk) 00:59, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What is that editor on about. Entertainment Weekly and TVGuide are extremely reliable sources. My wording, specifically "according to Michael Ausiello", does not state fact but does state a nevertheless valid, reliably-sourced point about the casting of the new series. Furthermore, if we were limited to BBC Press Releases only, Starz or no Starz, then this article would be full of boring, useless and self-congratulating discussion about the show. The BBC aren't likely to do a Press Release until those characters are cast, at any rate.~ZytheTalk to me! 12:55, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As I said above, I think it's lack of familiarity with the American entertainment media operates, as well as which are reliable sources. Granted, it's a bit of a shift to suddenly factor in an American partner where what has been a show produced solely by the BBC, but c'mon! It would behoove European editors to at least do a bit of checking before so comprehensively dismissing sourced information, particularly so judgmentally. Drmargi (talk) 13:42, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you'll find that most of the information will be coming out of America as it seems to primarily be an American production this time around. Still not sure how we're going to handle this. "New World" is so vastly different to the original Torchwood it's going to need it's own section. --Clarrisani (talk) 10:55, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not so sure about that, but the discussion above was months ago, when the new characters were first announced, and in reference to one editor who was reverting as unreliable anything that wasn't the BBC. Drmargi (talk) 11:04, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

New cast members: Series 4
The article includes information about casting for series 4. I don't want to jump into the article with this, but perhaps a regular editor of this article may like to include information about Lauren Ambrose's role on the show, sourced from this article: http://www.tvguide.com/News/Lauren-Ambrose-Torchwood-1027680.aspx Tinkstar1985 06:41, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I assume someone would have done it by now, but since no one has, I will.~ZytheTalk to me! 16:34, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Inspiration from " Sapphire & Steel "................................... ?
Is the episode " From Out of the Rain " adapted from the " Sapphire & Steel " episode with the photos and the faceless man ? Oyvey.
 * Find a source! And write it up at "From out of the Rain".~ZytheTalk to me! 10:23, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * And as the tone of the original post seems to be one of criticism or accusing the series of being unoriginal, make note that From out of the Rain was written by the creator of Sapphire & Steel, so he's entitled to recycle ideas from his own creation if he wants. 68.146.80.110 (talk) 15:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Graveyard slot?
The article states that the Children of Earth series of Torchwood was shown in a "graveyard slot". 9pm on the BBC's main channel is no such thing, it is prime time. Bungle2010 (talk) 18:28, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Take it up with Russell T Davies. He's quoted in the article saying that. --Ebyabe (talk) 21:12, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the argument is that summer weeknights get lower ratings than winter weekends.~ZytheTalk to me! 12:06, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Typo?
This sentence doesn't make any sense to me: "David-Lloyd departs the cast when Ianto is killed by aliens, and by episode five, everything about Torchwood Cardiff." What's the meaning here? 24.21.5.135 (talk) 22:03, 31 July 2011 (UTC)Chris
 * Someone came along and attempted to add some remark about how Ianto dying killed the show, it looks like. I removed the last half and now it make sense again.Zythe (talk) 22:57, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually the original made sense, it just wasn't worded right. Everything about Torchwood Cardiff was killed off in Episode 5. I think rewording rather than deleting is what is needed.--58.164.120.143 (talk) 12:41, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah but it's weasel words / opinion. At best you could reflect a statement in some other section with "Fans reacted negatively..." or "the production team chose to...", but to say "everything was killed off" is unduly dramatic editorialising.Zythe (talk) 21:34, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

2011-2011?
What's the point in saying 2011-2011 instead of simply 2011? It looks quite strange and isn't necessary as the "episodes" column makes clear it's more than one episode. --Six words (talk) 07:42, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Role of Torchwood
The Torchwood Institute does not investigate "extraterrestrial incidents on Earth and scavenges alien technology for its own use". Nor is it "separate from the government, outside the police, and beyond the United Nations". It is a British governmental organisation, nothing to do with the police, and certainly not the UN. Its purpose is to prepare the defence of Britain and the Empire (later Commonwealth) from alien threats. Simple really.203.184.41.226 (talk) 01:13, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * In canon, the institute is an organisation under the jurisdiction of the crown. It is not governmental, and personally notes that it is outside the police, and beyond the UN. It's not part of either of these. The official purpose of Torchwood began as a preparation team for advancing the empire, but Captain Jack Harkness changed this within Torchwood 3 when he assumed command. He changed Torchwood 3, the focus of the programme, so it investigated and scavenged alien technology. Gwen Cooper convinced them to help the public, rather than just being silent bystanders. drewmunn talk 22:38, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Torchwood cancelled
How does it say that Torchwood is cancelled? It's on Limbo right now! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.39.4.172 (talk) 21:14, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The article notes that it is on hiatus, and does not say it's cancelled. drewmunn talk 22:33, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Season 2 group photo - FYI
Due to inept editing by the original graphic artist in assembling people who were not actually together in the same room, that group photograph was discussed on the blog Photoshop Disasters in 2008: http://www.psdisasters.com/2008/11/torchwood-retractable-thumbs.html#disqus_thread I thought some of you might be interested. Thanks, Wordreader (talk) 04:33, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Homosexual, Bisexual,Omnisexual
Over the last couple of days I've seen a couple of edits/reversions similar to this. Can the participants stop because it's verging on an edit war over this section of text. => Spudgfsh  ( Text Me! ) 12:06, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The term as used in the show doesn't mean anything outside of the show, at least to the uninitiated. In fact, it only means anything to fans of the show who have read a lot of interviews with John Barrowman. "Omnisexual relationships" might please fans, but it's not really a theme the show explores. "Gay and bisexual relationships" is both true and simple.Zythe (talk) 12:20, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Seems to me the Tosh/Mary relationship in “Greeks Bearing Gifts” was the furthest the show has explored that theme. (Despite Captain Jack’s amorousness toward every sapient lifeform in the universe being a running gag on Doctor Who, he doesn’t get to flirt with aliens much on Torchwood.) I think we should delete the word because it’s not a “prominent theme” of the show, but not out of mere kneejerk language purism. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 19:38, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Disdain of flabby language is perfectly justifiable ;) Zythe (talk) 14:52, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Twaddle
Thorchwood is twaddle. This ought to be stated. 86.155.0.186 (talk) 14:35, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Ended for 'personal reasons?'
I think the most notable thing about Torchwood was the fact they managed to derail and destroy one of the most watched TV series' in history. There are countless primary and secondary sources supporting this. 13 episodes, 13 episodes, mini series, mini series. You tell me where the ratings plummeted. ;) Not to mention they kept screwing the time slots and changed the format of the show entirely and took freakin' years between each season, it went from a TV series to two mini series' with one banal narrative across each. But the article doesn't mention anything but it being on permanent hiatus due to personal reasons; which is kind of unbecoming of any article when the details are public knowledge. Just hoping the editors of this article could pick up their game and realistically address the fact this was a lesson of how to destroy a #1 global franchise, because Doctor Who is following the same tac, especially with the years between seasons and changed time slots. It's ratings are also taking a similar hit, and I can foresee it dropping off the radar again because people just can't be arsed watching a show on TV when they stuff around like that and instead will just download it. BaSH PR0MPT (talk) 23:03, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Torchwood wasn't as popular as you seem to state. But your opinion as to why it ended is original research and conjecture; Wikipedia cannot assert its own theories, only report what reliable sources say in a manner which gives due weighting. The fact that it underwent budget-driven format changes is mentioned, as was the critical reception of all the series, so readers can conclude what they like.Zythe (talk) 10:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

2010s American television series category
I added the article to this category because co-productions are allowed, and of course the Miracle Day season was a co-production with Starz and primarily filmed in the US. 68.146.52.234 (talk) 14:42, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Suzie Costello
I find it pretty weird that a main cast member is left out of this article, Indira Varma as Suzie Costello. I tried to put her in but the edits are not sticking so I would not be able to rate this as a good article. 67.206.162.48 (talk) 20:54, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Late answer, but her presentation as part of the main cast in episode 1 was meant to hide the fact she was killed off in the same episode; she was effectively a recurring character only appearing during her temporary resurrection or a brief flashback after that. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 07:12, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

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Series 5 Audiobook / Torchwood: Aliens Among Us
Considering the new audiobook series Torchwood: Aliens Among Us is referred to as Torchwood Series 5 by many sources including the producing studio Big Finish Productions should we update this article to include it (treating it as a series)? TheDoctorWho (talk) 18:11, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * It is not part of the television series, as it is not a television production, so no. --  Alex TW 22:20, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

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New Zealand doesn't have a "UKTV"
Hi there, NZ Citizen here, Torchwood does not, nor to my knowledge, has ever had a channel by the name of "UKTV" yet the article states that Torchwood airs or aired on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.69.164.255 (talk) 11:35, 29 December 2019 (UTC)