Talk:Torikaebaya Monogatari

Novel or not?
This article is in the category 12th century novels. When I added the Novels project, it was removed again, and I was told that it probably not really a novel. Now either it is one and belongs in both the category and the project, or it is not and belongs in neither. Are there any sources discussing the tale that call it a novel? Or are there any that call it something else (such as epic)? Aleta  Sing 22:42, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, what makes it a novel or not? The English translated edition of the tale is certainly a novel of some length or another - it has about 240 pages or so. --Malkinann (talk) 23:11, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, you can start by looking at novel. However, I don't think it is always entirely clearcut. See The Tale of Genji for a comparison example that seems pertinent - it may or may not be the first novel, and is from 11th century Japan. (It is tagged as top priority for the novels project.) I will ask Yllosubmarine to come comment in this thread (as it was she(?) who removed the novels project tag). Aleta  Sing 23:17, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that by seeking out the novel project, we were searching for a rating from a literary-related project, to get that perspective on it. --Malkinann (talk) 23:44, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, since the start of this thread, another editor has added it to the Literature project. Still, for the sake of consistency, we need to arrive at a consensus on this question. Aleta  Sing 23:53, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The word monogatari seems to have been a recentish addition to the title - monogatari means "tale of". That's why there's so many iterations of "tale" through the article - it's convienient, to my mind.  The critics I've read don't really call it a novel, or anything, really - they're more interested in other matters.  --Malkinann (talk) 00:01, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * As the person who first categorized it as a novel, I can say exactly what I was thinking: I was copying the categories from the Genji article, with the year updated. FWIW, Willig in her introduction calls it a "tale" throughout, and never a novel. This is the usual translation for monogatari, but the words are not entirely 1:1 categories. I don't object to categorizing it as a book, but it needs some sort of by-year cat. —Quasirandom (talk) 00:46, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Category:12th-century books? Category:12th-century works? -Aleta  Sing 00:53, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "Works" is good enough for me. --Malkinann (talk) 11:40, 20 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I will not comment whether it is a novel or not, since that term is imprecisely defined. In Japanese literature, Torikaebaya belongs to the monogatari genre, more specifically the micro-genre of tsukuri-monogatari, along with Taketori Monogatari, Utsubo Monogatari, Ochikubo Monogatari, Genji Monogatari and many others. Bendono (talk) 11:02, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Title romanization

 * Where would it fit in on the list of Japanese classic texts, Bendono? --Malkinann (talk) 11:40, 20 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It was already there, just "misspelled" (in a sense). Bendono (talk) 11:54, 20 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Is that another common romanisation of the title? If so, perhaps we should make some redirects from Torikahebaya.  --Malkinann (talk) 00:43, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Extra redirects do not hurt, but it really is unnecessary. It's a matter of historical pronunciation and spelling, the details of which you need not concern yourself with.
 * However, in the event that you re interested in the details, let me explain. Notice that the title is spelled とりかへばや物語, with a へ. へ is typically pronounced as [he]. However, this is the historically spelling, which has changed quite a bit since then. /h/ was initially realized as [p], then weakened to [ɸ] by the 8th century. Medial -ɸ- changes to -w- before a vowel. Hence, torikape- > torikaɸe- > torikawe-. However, Japanese lost the distinction between /e/ and /we/ around c. 1200, both merging into /e/. (You can still see this -w- in words likes kawanai "do not buy" from the verb kau < kawu < kaɸu < kapu.) Since around c. 950, though, /e/ had been realized as [je] (or ye, if you prefer). Thus, when you look in, for example, Nippo Jisho (1603-1604), you will find an entry for "Toricaye". Roughly a hundred years later, /e/ regularizes back to [e] as it currently is today. Modern romanization systems such as Hepburn began to be developed in the mid-19th century. These were always based on the actual phonetic sound, not the spelling. Like English still does for "knight", "knife" and other odd spelling that do not match modern pronunciation, Japan continued to use historical spellings until the 1940s. Even with a historical spelling, the romanization was always based on the phonetic sound. Hence, for the last several hundred years it would have always been "torikaebaya", and not *"torikahebaya", which never really existed in the first place. In summary, whoever spelled it as "torikahebaya" apparently had no knowledge of classical Japanese or how to romanize it and just merely looked at the (historical) spelling. That may be a little more than you were asking for, but FYI. Bendono (talk) 16:35, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Cool - thanks for the explanation! :D Is it the same kind of shift that led to wo becoming o (in the name Kaworu/Kaoru)?  Still, redirects are cheap, and the story is referred to with the "he" character, so I think it wouldn't hurt to make a couple.  --Malkinann (talk) 23:02, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Kaoru / Kaworu is a little different. Historically it was /wo/ and never derived from [po] or [ɸo]. However, as [w] was lost before all vowels except for /a/, the same explanation given above for why kaworu > kaoru is valid. The accusative case を is another similar example. A much better example is the topic particle は (wa), which is still spelled that way in modern Japanese regardless that it is always pronounced as [wa], and never as [ha]. Anyway, this is getting a little of topic, so I'll leave this topic alone. Bendono (talk) 04:01, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Publication date?
Expanding on something tangentially touched on above, any objection to changing the publication date in the infobox to 12th century? Given that most scholars who address the question seem to agree on that, and it's more specific than "late Heian period". —Quasirandom (talk) 22:45, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Himuro manga adaptation
All the links are references to Amazon.jp Here some where about :
 * 1983 Ed Vol 1
 * 1983 Ed Vol 2


 * 1988 Ed Vol 1
 * 1988 Ed Vol 2
 * 1988 Ed Vol 3
 * 1988 Ed Vol 4


 * 1996 one shot Ed

Comment: Big issue, the release date & number of volumes. It's either 1983 and 2 volumes or 1988 and 4 volumes but not 1983 and 4 volumes. I tried to probe the publisher website but it seems a dead end as it's to old to appear in their catalog anymore.


 * The 1983 edition is a two-volume novel. The 1986 is the manga adaptation of same. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:38, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Correction: that may be a two-volume novel. I'm also finding statements that it was published in four volumes, at least if I'm disentangling machinetranslationgrish correctly. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:55, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Following up on this, it is a two-volume novel and a four-volume manga adaptation, as stated in the article. I suspect the two versions are getting conflated, thus the confusion. —Quasirandom (talk) 23:46, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If I'm reading it right, the 1996 edition is a reprint of the novel as part of a complete works collection. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:46, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Other allusion to Torikaebaya Monogatari
Maria-sama ga miteru Season 4 episode 1, the play for the school festival is Torikaebaya Monogatari ;) 


 * Which means it was also that in whatever novel was adapted as that episode. Better to refer to the original version, for this, since it's an adaptation within a work of fiction. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:45, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Character list?
Given the name/title changes and pronoun changes for the many characters in this tale, would a character list section be an appropriate addition to the article? --Malkinann (talk) 06:23, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Given just how confusing the cast can get, I can see an argument for it, at least for the main handful of characters. I'd put it as a subsection of the story, though, and limit it to just a explanations of their identities, without little-to-no plot summary. —Quasirandom (talk) 15:39, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Definitions
It seems a little redundant to define Japanese words in this article. A much more appropriate forum would be Wiktionary. For example, you could replace the definition for wakagimi and himegimi with wakagimi and himegimi, respectively. Bendono (talk) 04:01, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the wiktionary links! :)  The reason why I put it in was that it struck me as being particularly ironic, seeing as their gender is the opposite of their name, and the translation is specifically mentioned in one or possibly two of the papers I've read for this article. Am I correct in guessing that Wakagimi is a "boys only" name?  The conflation of "boy" with "child" in the wiktionary definition (somewhat like the legal definition of shōnen, if I'm understanding that correctly) kind of confuses that for me.--Malkinann (talk) 04:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * No, the term wakagimi is used for both male and female children. The Genji quote, for example, refers to the female character Tamakazura. When contrasted with himegimi, though, it refers to only male children. Bendono (talk) 04:41, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * After having slept on it, I hereby suggest that you knock yourself out, and make whatever changes you think the article needs. --Malkinann (talk) 20:35, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Images?
The obvious choice is the cover of Willig's "The Changelings" translation, but I don't feel it would be appropriate in the top right corner, but would be appropriate in "adaptations". Sey Nishimura says that female-to-male cross-dressing actually occurred in the court using many-layered garments and an extroverted personality. Following on from that, I'm wondering if one of the pictures from jūnihitoe would be appropriate as that was the clothing used in Genji and so is probably the same kind of clothes Naishi no Kami would have worn. I'd hesitate to use the picture from sokutai, as it is of Emperor Shōwa and its use here may be in poor taste. Thoughts? --Malkinann (talk) 10:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Best of all would be an illustration from an early Japanese edition, but I don't know whether any are available. Willig's cover is certainly inappropriate in the infobox, and frankly I don't think it would add anything to the article among the adaptations. The cover of one of the manga or novel adaptations, showing a modern rendering of the content in contrast to an early one, might be justifiable -- after all, it's part of the response. Or even a production still from the Takarazuka version. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps one of the images here would work? Specifically this one, which is a photo of the first page of the story in an old book, I believe. The image is from this page. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:41, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Wow, that's great Nihonjoe! :D That seems to be a picture of the first page of an early Edo copy of Torikaebaya on a page about 'works like Genji'? (google translate is my friend ^^*) What kind of a copyright tag could we put on it?  PD-US-1923-abroad might do for a start... We could also include a picture from Genji as a secondary picture - the excised scenes from the first Torikaebaya are said by Rohlich to be similar to the "rainy night conversation" (a famous scene from chapter two where all the blokes from Genji sit down and talk about women), or another conversation on a rainy night where they all talk poetry. Might need some help from WP:JA identifying the exact illustration.  Quasirandom, I'd say that despite the lack of visual interest in Willig's cover, it's probably more relevant to the article than a manga cover or novel adaptation cover, as English-speaking people would still be more likely to encounter Torikaebaya via Willig's translation than by reading the manga or novel. --Malkinann (talk) 20:07, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Mmm, possibly. I'm not convinced Willig's cover would add enough to the article to pass a fair-use rationale, though. --The page Nihonjoe found is a DEFINITE win. Especially if we can pick out an illustrated one. —Quasirandom (talk) 22:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Further development
Sorry to not be of any help all i can remark is that this article is reaching the B threshold ;) --KrebMarkt 20:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Is it worth asking for a peer review from WP:LIT yet? Or do we think there's more we know how to do? —Quasirandom (talk) 22:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably needs a thorough copyedit, especially the plot section. Quasirandom, do you have access to a copy of Willig's translation? --Malkinann (talk) 22:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I own a Willig, yes. And can undertake a copyedit of the plot and characters, since I did very little editing there. —Quasirandom (talk) 23:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * *jealous* --Malkinann (talk) 23:51, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It was relatively cheap as a used copy via Amazon, actually. And worth it. Was there anything in particular you want me to look up? —Quasirandom (talk) 00:47, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Damn you Amazon. :P I don't shop online, ever. Mainly the revelation of the tengu's curse needs checking - I didn't really understand that part well.  Also if you could eventually do a read-through, checking that there's nothing missing or wrong, and seeing that the events are described properly, that'd be really helpful. ;-) --Malkinann (talk) 07:15, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It'll take me a week or two before I have the time to take in the whole book, but I should be able to check the tengu part (which I want to reread anyway, as it was confusing) in a few days. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:18, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No rush, I want to try and re-read Childs (to get the skinny on Saisho and the Chunagon - help with their initial "encounter" would also be appreciated) and Pflugfelder (as he was nearly the first I read, so my understanding may have changed). --Malkinann (talk) 19:48, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Mumyozoshi
The unaccented "Mumyozoshi" in the titles of the two papers is not a typo or a careless mistake, it is the correct title in the papers, which may be due to some kind of a style guide. --Malkinann (talk) 10:39, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


 * When quoting, always use the original's romaji, so we're good there. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:23, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

French academic studies ?
On 5 mai 2006 KAWAI Hayao held a conference in Paris about Torikaebaya Monogatari search for Kawai hayao. A French summary can be found here I guess i won't skip the English translation + summary duty ;)
 * If any doubt about the website RS statut here my argument to placate the issue :p

Inalco is UBER RS and Inalco Cej (Centre d'étude japonais) is RS however their website is very crappy as not up to date. --KrebMarkt 08:17, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh wow! Thank you for finding this!!!!! :D  I have a very little French myself, so I'll give it a go too. :) --Malkinann (talk) 11:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * VERY good find. I've been looking for a scholar to make the obvious comparison to "Iphis and Ianthe" -- and we finally have one. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:50, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Tell me which part you want a rough but better than web translated English version. I will probably have time and the concentration to do it tomorrow. --KrebMarkt 17:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hope this gets in before you lose your free time... You could check what I've written, for starters - it's been a while since I've had to rely on my French.  When it says "L’existence double blah blah blah..." does that mean "the double life of Brother and Sister", or am I being too figurative?  That bit on Seraphita, perhaps? Also, what does he mean by "ethical love" and "decadent love"?--Malkinann (talk) 19:32, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, what does Kawai say about jealousy or the lack thereof? I read it, but I didn't understand it.. :( --Malkinann (talk) 20:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I was wondering about that -- I consider it remarkable that supposedly jealousy wasn't detected. —Quasirandom (talk) 20:50, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

About the Ovide ref: "Cette souffrance ressemble à celle de la Sœur dans le Torikaebaya. Toutefois, dans les Métamorphoses, le conflit est résolu par la déesse Isis qui transforme Iphis en garçon, alors que dans l’histoire japonaise il n’y a aucun miracle et l’héroïne trouve son bonheur en devenant une vraie femme."

This suffering is similar to the Sister's one in the Torikaebaya. However in the Metamorphoses, the conflict is solved by the goddess Isis who transforms Iphis into a boy while in the Japanese story there is no miracle and the heroine finds her happiness by becoming a true/real woman --KrebMarkt 21:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Damn, a little knowledge is more dangerous than none at all... Thanks for picking that up. :) --Malkinann (talk) 21:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem i'm here for that as i'm the one who brought the ref ;)

About the Balzac's Seraphita: "L’existence double de la Sœur et du Frère est l’alchimie qui génère, du début à la fin, le développement de l’intrigue."

The twin/double existence of the sister and brother is the alchemy which generates from beginning to end the plot development.

"Le récit de deux êtres qui, combinés, ne forment qu’une seule personnalité évoque Séraphita de Balzac, une nouvelle complexe basée sur la pensée du philosophe mystique Swendenborg. Dans Séraphita, la synthèse de l’homme et de la femme est importante dans la mesure où elle montre aux humains la voie pour atteindre le Ciel. Bien que l’union de l’homme et de la femme ne soit pas explicite dans le Torikaebaya, le frère et la sœur ont quelque chose de divin. Ils ne peuvent toutefois pas être unis au sens propre dans la mesure où ils ne sont ni amants, ni époux."

The story of two being when combined forms a sole personality evokes Balzac's Séraphita, a complex novella based on the mystic philosopher Swendenborg's thoughts. In Séraphita, the synthesis of man and woman is important in some extend as it show to humans the way to Heaven. While the union of man & woman isn't explicit in the Torikaebaya, the brother & the sister have something divine. They can't be properly united as they neither lovers nor spouses. --KrebMarkt 21:40, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The tale of two beings who when combined form a sole personality? Why am I thinking of Jules and Julie all of a sudden? XD This would be easier if there was a Seraphita article. :P --Malkinann (talk) 21:54, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Seraphita is in the French public domain however i don't about possible English translation.
 * There's a PD English translation available |here. Thanks for making the Séraphita stub, Malkin! Scartol  •  Tok  11:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

The jealousy round 1: "Dans un premier temps la jalousie est évitée car, d’une certaine manière, le Frère et la Sœur sont bisexuels. Quand la Sœur prend conscience que sa « femme » a une relation avec Chûjô, elle s’apitoie sur son sort et ressent de la compassion à son égard car elle sait qu’elle-même n’est pas un « homme » ordinaire. Après que la Sœur a été reconnue comme « femme », elle part vivre avec Chûjô à Uji, mais ce dernier continue de rendre souvent visite à l’ancienne épouse de la Sœur. La Sœur en ressent de jalousie, mais elle est capable de prendre de la distance et de juger la situation avec objectivité grâce à son expérience en tant qu’« homme ». Elle décide donc d’attendre, avant de quitter Chûjô, d’en avoir un enfant, et feint jusqu’alors de l’aimer passionnément."

In a first time the jealousy is avoided as in some manner the Brother & the Sister are bisexuals. When the Sister becomes aware that her "wife" has a relationship with Chûjo, she self-pity her fate and feels compassion for her because she know the herself isn't an ordinary "man". After the Sister being recognized as a "woman", she goes to live with Chûjo in Uji but the later one continues to visit the ancient spouse of the Sister. The Sister feels jealousy but she is able to distance herself and to judge the situation with objectivity thanks to her experience as a "man". She decided to wait for have a child before leaving Chûjo and pretends to love him passionately. --KrebMarkt 22:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The jealousy round 2: "En second lieu, la jalousie est évitée grâce à la magnanimité de l’Empereur. Il ne tourmente pas son épouse, la Sœur, quand il découvre qu’elle a eu dans le passé une relation avec Chûjô. Il ne la questionne pas car il sait qu’un homme doit faire preuve de discrétion. Il n’y a qu’un seul épisode où apparaît un conflit important causé par l’amour. Ici la relation d’amour n’est pas entre deux amants, mais entre une mère et son fils. Quand la Sœur est prise de l’envie de quitter Uji, où elle vit avec son nouveau-né, elle découvre le conflit entre « être une mère » et « être elle-même ». Elle veut quitter Chûjô pour vivre sa propre vie, mais trouve évidemment difficile d’abandonner son bébé. La plupart des femmes japonaises, même aujourd’hui, auraient choisi d’être mères ; la Sœur fait pourtant un autre choix"

In a second time jealousy is avoided by magnanimity of the Emperor. He does not torment his spouse, the Sister, when he learned that she had a past relationship with Chûjo. He doesn't question her as he knows that a man should be able to hold some discretion. There is only one episode where a conflict caused by love appears. Here the love relationship isn't between two lovers but a mother and a son. When the Sister want to leave Uji where she lives with her new-born, she discovers the conflict between "being a mother" and "being herself". She want to leave Chûjo to live her own life but finds obviously difficult to abandon her baby. Even today, most Japaneses women would chose to be mothers ; the Sister however makes another choice. --KrebMarkt 08:46, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

The jealousy round 3: "Elle décide de partir et l’histoire mentionne que « la grande résolution de la Sœur avait ses racines dans sa précédente vie d’homme ». Il peut paraître normal pour un public occidental qu’une femme préfère l’indépendance à la dépendance vis-à-vis d’un homme, mais il convient de rappeler que cette histoire fut écrite au douzième siècle dans un Japon où le tissu social rendait une telle décision extrêmement difficile. "

She decides to leave and the story mention that "her great resolution has its roots in her previous man life". It can appear normal for an occidental public that a woman prefers independence rather than dependence toward a man but it should re-told that this story was written in the 12th century in a Japan where the social pattern made such decision extremely difficult.

"La Sœur choisit l’indépendance, mais elle épousera l’Empereur. Par hasard, elle rencontre son fils au Palais, mais elle doit lui cacher son identité réelle et assumer sa situation. La douleur se révèle trop forte et, alors que les larmes emplissent ses yeux, elle lui dit : « Je suis une parente de votre mère, et la langueur qu’elle éprouve, incapable qu’elle est d’oublier son fils, me désole. »"

The Sister choses independence but she will marry the Emperor. By hazard, she meets her son in the Palace but she has to hide her real identity and assume her situation. The pain is too strong and then teary eyed she tells him: "I'm a parent of your mother, and the languor she endures unable to forget her son, desolates me" --KrebMarkt 09:01, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

The jealousy round 4: Chûjô épouse la seconde fille du prince de Yoshino et trouve ainsi le bonheur, mais jusqu’au bout, il se révèle incapable de comprendre pourquoi la Sœur a disparu, laissant son enfant derrière elle. Il cherche des éclaircissements auprès de sa nouvelle épouse qui semble connaître des choses importantes au sujet de la disparition de la Sœur, mais il renonce voyant qu’il n’obtient aucune réponse précise. Il est important de savoir où s’arrêter. Chûjô sacrifie son désir de savoir la vérité et sauve ainsi son bonheur et celui de sa maison. Cela reflète aussi l’absence de jalousie de sa part.

Chûjo married the Prince Yoshino's second daughter and finds happiness but till the end he was unable to understand why the Sister disappeared leaving her child behind. He searches insights from his new spouse who seems to know important things about the Sister disappearance but he renounces seeing that he isn't getting any precise answer. It is important to know when/where to stop. Chûjo sacrifices his desire to know the truth and saves his happiness and his home's one. That reflect lack of jealousy from his part. --KrebMarkt 09:12, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

The jealousy round 5, conclusion on it: Certains d’entre vous peuvent ne pas être d’accord avec Chûjô ou avec l’Empereur, car ils ne poursuivent pas leur enquête jusqu’au bout. Il peut vous sembler important de connaître toute la vérité quelle que soit la peine qui doive s’ensuivre. Je ne saurais dire ce qui est bien ou mal, mais si je devais prendre la place de l’auteur, je dirais que la jalousie est une dissonance dans l’harmonie générale de l’amour. Sur le plan esthétique, l’harmonie ne doit pas être interrompue par une trop brusque dissonance ; d’un autre côté, une légère dissonance exalte la beauté. Et le plus important pour l’auteur du Torikaebaya est bien la beauté.

Some among you don't agree with Chûjo or the Emperor because they don't pursuit their inquiry till end. It may seem important to you to know the truth regardless the pain that will occurs afterward. I can't say if it's good or bad but if i should take the author role/place, i would say that jealousy is a dissonance in general harmony of love. In the aesthetic plan, the harmony mustn't be interrupt by a too brisk dissonance ; in another side, a light dissonance exalts the beauty. And the most important for the Torikaebaya's author is indeed beauty. --KrebMarkt 09:22, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Bisexuality and jealousy: "Une femme peut être comme un homme et vice versa. En changeant notre point de vue, nous pouvons éviter d’inutiles conflits. Lorsqu’un homme et une femme sont profondément attachés l’un à l’autre, de violents sentiments de jalousie se manifestent si l’un apprend que l’autre à une relation ailleurs. Mais si l’on sait que chacun est, d’une certaine manière, bisexuel, alors la relation devient plus riche et l’insidieux pouvoir de la jalousie n’a plus de prise pour opérer."

A woman can be like a man and vice versa. By changing point of view, we can avoid useless conflicts. When a man & a woman are deeply attached to one another, violent feeling of jealousy occurs if we learn that the other has a relationship elsewhere. However if we know that in some way anyone is bisexual then the relationship becomes richer and the insidious power of jealousy has no more handle to operate. --KrebMarkt 08:36, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment:  I'm done for now page 4 out of 8 not sure how long and how much i should translate. Leave me some feedback ;) --KrebMarkt 09:22, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Wow! :D  This is great!!! --Malkinann (talk) 21:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Beauty in Torikaebaya: ''Le Torikaebaya a été vigoureusement rejeté à cause de son « immoralité ». Or il me semble que l’intention de l’auteur n’était pas d’écrire une histoire sentimentale épicée de scènes érotiques ; toutefois il ne s’embarrassait pas non plus de questions morales. Son ambition première était d’atteindre une certaine forme de beauté. Tout le monde à l’époque connaissait le Genji monogatari (Le Dit du Genji) dans lequel les scènes d’amour sont dépeintes avec délicatesse et avec une grande profondeur d’observation sur la nature humaine. Il est possible que l’auteur du Torikaebaya ait recherché une esthétique encore supérieure en attribuant à ses personnages les vertus de chaque sexe. En introduisant des scènes d’amour impliquant tantôt deux hommes (dont l’un jouant le rôle d’une femme), tantôt deux femmes (dont l’une jouant le rôle d’un homme), il essayait peut-être de montrer que l’homme est plus beau quand sa part de féminité est révélée, tout comme est plus belle une femme dont apparaît la part masculine.''

The Torikaebaya was vigorously rejected due to its "immorality". However it seems that the author intent wasn't to write a sentimental story spiced with erotics scenes ; thought he didn't embarrass himself with moral questions. His prime ambition was to reach a certain form of beauty. Everyone at that time knew the Genji monogatari where loves scenes where depicted with delicatness and a great depthness of observation on human nature. It's possible that the Torikaebaya's author looked for an even higher esteatic by attributing to his characters the virtues of each sexe. By introducing loves scenes involving either two men (one playing the woman role), or two women (on playing the male role), he tried to show that the man is beautier when his feminine part is revealed, as beautier is a woman which masculine part appeared --KrebMarkt 11:28, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Torikaebaya compared to Genji Monogatari: ''L’amour de la sœur pour la femme du Reikeiden est une allusion à l’amour du Genji pour Hanachirusato dans Le Dit du Genji. De la même manière, Hanachirusato était apparue pour consoler le Genji alors que celui-ci se morfondait. L’auteur du Torikaebaya recrée la scène, mais avec deux femmes, dont l’une dans le rôle d’un homme. De ce fait l’émotion est encore plus intense et surpasse l’élégant pathos du Genji.''

The Sister love for the Reikeiden's wife is an allusion of the Genji's love for Hanachirusato in Genji Monogatori. In the same way, Hanachirusato appeared to console the Genji while he morfonded. The Torikaebaya's author re-creates the same scene but with two women, one bien in a man role. Due to that the emotion is even more intense and surpass the elegant pathos of the Genji.

''Prenons un autre exemple. La Sœur décide de se rendre à Uji, obéissant à Chûjô qui lui avait suggéré d’aller y accoucher en secret.''

''« Sur la route d’Uji, « elle » [la Sœur] était submergée par la morosité, se demandant ce qui allait lui arriver. La lune montait dans le ciel clair et le paysage le long de la route était magnifique. Quand ils parvinrent à Kohata, un endroit de basses collines où les gens n’auraient rien remarqué de particulier, « elle » décida de révéler qu’elle était une femme. Elle n’avait comme seul bagage qu’une flûte qui l’accompagnait depuis l’enfance. La perdre aurait été pour elle une blessure à nulle autre pareille. Triste comme elle était, elle joua splendidement ; le son était indescriptible. »''

Taking another example. The Sister decides to go Uji, obedient to Chujo who suggested her to go there in order to give secretly birth there.

"On the road to Uji, "she" [the Sister] was submerged by morosity, asking herself what will happen to her. The moon was raising in the clear sky and the landscape along the road was magnificient. When they arrived at Kohata, a place of low hills where people would not notice anything particular, "she" decided to reveal that she was a woman. She had as lone luggage a flute that accompagnied her since her childhood. To lose it would have been to her, a wound with no equal. Saddened as she was, she played splendidly ; The sound was undesciptible"

''Cette scène est elle aussi une allusion à un passage du Genji où deux amants s’échappent pour Uji. La principale différence entre les deux tient au fait que là où, dans le Genji, la flûte est jouée par de jeunes hommes, dans le Torikaebaya, c’est la Sœur qui en joue, bien que ce soit un instrument habituellement réservé aux hommes. Ici le sentiment de beauté est exalté car nous voyons un homme jouant de la flûte au cours d’un moment de transition unique où il [re]devient une femme. Plus jamais celle-ci ne jouera de la flûte. Le caractère dramatique de sa situation, ainsi capturé dans un instant d’éternité, éveille notre sensibilité esthétique.''

This scene is also a allusion to a passage of Genji where the two lovers flee for Uji. The main difference between the two held in the fact that the flute is played by yound men, in Torikaebaya, it's the Sister who play it, while it's an instrument reserved to men. Here the feeling of beauty is exealted as we are watching a man playing flute in an unique moment of transition where he [re]-becomes a woman. Never again this one will play flute. The dramatic caracteristic of her situation then captured in an instant of eternity, awake our esteatic sensibility

Comment: A hard one for me, full of typos, spelling and grammar mistakes. --KrebMarkt 14:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey now, this is a difficult article to read. You're going great! :) --Malkinann (talk) 20:50, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yea, just that there are much information packed in only 8 pages. The comparison with the Genji can't be skipped. --KrebMarkt 21:47, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a beauty of an article on Torikaebaya - thank you again for finding it, and thank you again for helping us understand it! :D Maybe we can find a flute-picture from Genji? :)  I can't do any more on it today, but I'll try to knuckle down on incorporation tomorrow. --Malkinann (talk) 21:51, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Place of action in Torikaebaya: ''Les lieux de l’action dans le Torikaebaya sont eux aussi riches de signification. Il y en a principalement trois : Kyôto, Uji et Yoshino. Uji est situé à proximité de Kyôto, au sud. On peut s’y rendre à pied en quelques heures. Yoshino est plus au sud et il faut compter une journée entière pour faire le périple à pied.''

The places of action in the Torikaebaya are also full of significations. There are mainly three: Kyôto, Uji and Yoshino. Uji is situated in proximity of Kyôto, in the south. It can be reached at feet in few hours. Yoshino is more in the south and count a full day to make a journey there at feet.

''Chûjô se déplace beaucoup, particulièrement dans la première moitié du récit, mais uniquement à Kyôto et Uji ; il ne sait rien de ce qui se passe à Yoshino. La Sœur va à Yoshino lorsqu’elle tombe enceinte, et le Frère s’y rend lorsqu’il reprend son identité masculine ; dans les deux cas, ces voyages correspondent au moment où ils révèlent leur vraie nature. La rencontre la plus importante entre la Sœur et le Frère se situe à Uji au moment où ce dernier arrive pour emmener la première à Yoshino. Chûjô est alors à Kyôto et ignore tout de cet épisode bien qu’il fasse régulièrement le déplacement jusqu’à Uji.''

Chûjo moves a lots, particularly in the first half of the telling, but only at Kyoto and Uji ; He knows nothing of what is happening in Yoshino. The Sister goes to Yoshino when she becomes pregnant, and the Brother goes there when he takes his masculine identity back ; in the two case, those travels correspond to the moment when they reveal their true nature. The most important meeting between the Sister and the Brother is situated in Uji when the later arrives to bring the first to Yoshino. Chûjo by then is in Kyoto and know nothing of this episode even if he makes regulars displacements to Uji.

''L’échange crucial d’identité entre le Frère et la Sœur a lieu à Yoshino. Seul le Prince, au courant de tout, connaît leur secret. Il prévoit même leur destin et sait que la Sœur deviendra impératrice et que le Frère occupera à la Cour les plus hautes fonctions. La seule chose dont il n’est pas certain, c’est le destin de ses filles. Il a bien le pressentiment que la Sœur va les conduire à Kyôto, c’est pourquoi il interroge cette dernière sur ce point. A ce moment-là, il n’est qu’un père anxieux ne désirant rien d’autre que le bonheur de ses filles.''

The crucial exchange of identity between the Brother and the Sister takes place in Yoshino. Only the Prince, aware of everything, knows their secret. He even foresee their fate and know that the Sister will become the Empress and that the Brother will held the highest function at the Court. The only thing which he is uncertain of, is the fate of his daughters. Even if he has the feeling that the Sister will lead them to Kyoto, that why he questions the sister on that point. At this moment, he is nothing but an anxious father desiring nothing but the happiness of his daughters.

''Nul ne peut tout connaître tant qu’il est attaché au monde. Quand ses filles sont emmenées à Kyôto par le Frère, le Prince affirme à celui-là qu’il n’a rien à craindre. Tout se passe en effet pour le mieux et ses filles sont ravies. Le Prince disparaît alors au fin fond des montagnes de Yoshino. Il ne vit plus « en ce monde ». Personne ne peut maintenir ses liens avec le monde quand il connaît tout de son destin.''

No one can knows everything and stay bound to the world. When his daughters are brought to Kyoto by the Brother, the Prince affirms him the there is nothing to fear. Everything goes for the better and his daughters are happy. The Prince disappears then in the deepest reaches of Yoshino's mountains. He doesn't live "in this world" anymore. No one can maintain its links to the world when he/she knows everything of his/her fate.

Dreams in Torikaebaya: ''Le père de la Sœur est profondément affecté par la longue disparition de sa fille. C’est pourquoi le Frère reprend l’identité d’un homme pour partir à la recherche de sa sœur. Le père fait alors un rêve dans lequel un noble moine lui apparaît ; celui-ci lui annonce que l’identité de ses enfants a été intervertie à cause de fautes commises dans une vie antérieure, mais que le temps de leur délivrance est venu. Le père, ravi, expose son rêve à sa femme ; cette dernière lui apprend alors que le Frère est d’ores et déjà redevenu un homme et qu’il est parti à la recherche de sa Sœur. Nous avons ici une superbe concordance entre réalité extérieure et réalité intérieure, entre le rêve à Kyôto et les événements à Yoshino.''

The Sister's father is deeply affected by the long disappearance of his daugther. That why the Brother retakes his man identity and go to find for his sister. The father then makes a dream where a noble monk appears in the front of him ; this one annouces that the identity of his chids wes interverted due the faults commited in a previous life, but the delivrance time has came. The father, glad, exposes his dream to his wife ; This later one informs him then that the Brother is already back as a man and that he went to find his Sister. We have a superb concordance between the exterior reality and the interior reality, between the dream in Kyoto and the events in Yoshino

''Les rêves dans le Torikaebaya n’ont toutefois pas toujours une signification si profonde. La première fois que la Sœur envisage de partir pour Yoshino, « elle » dit à ses proches et à la Cour qu’elle doit se rendre à Yoshino pour se purifier, car elle a eu en rêve de mauvais présages. Ceci montre que les gens de ce temps étaient enclins à considérer les rêves comme des oracles divins ; ils étaient toutefois capables de les interpréter pour leur propre intérêt, voire même de créer des rêves de toutes pièces.''

The dreams in the Torikaebaya don't always a such deep meaning. The first that the Sister envision to go to Yoshino, "She" tells to her relatives and to the Court that she must go to Yoshino to purify herself because she had a dream of bad omens. This shows that the people were inclinated to considers dreams as divines oracles ; they were able however to interpret them for their own interests, even create them out of from pieces.

''L’exemple suivant montre encore une autre utilisation des rêves. Après que la Sœur et le Frère ont échangé leur identité, la Sœur se fait passer pour le Frère (que l’on pense être une femme) et se rend après « une longue absence » au Palais de la princesse impériale. Personne ne doute qu’elle est bien le « Frère », ou plus exactement la « sœur » de la Sœur. Sur place, une personne lui apprend que le « Frère » redoutait que la Princesse fût enceinte et lui demande si elle sait qui pourrait être le père. Si quelqu’un doit savoir, c’est bien le « Frère » puisqu’« il », enfin « elle », est la plus proche dame de compagnie de la Princesse.''

The fellowing example shows once more another use of dreams. After the Sister and the Brother have switched their identity, the Sister is passing for the Brother (that it is thought to be a woman) and she goes after "a long absence" to the imperial Princess's Palace. No one doubts that she is indeed the "Brother", or to be more accurate the "sister" 's sister. There someone informs her that the "Brother" was afraid that the Princess was pregnant and ask her who could be the father. If anyone must know, it's the "Brother" as "he" or rather "she", is the closest lady in waiting of the Princess.

''La Sœur répond avec prudence qu’elle sent que quelque chose va se produire, sans pour autant suspecter que la Princesse est enceinte. Elle poursuit en expliquant qu’elle a dû retourner chez elle à cause de la disparition de son frère, et y rester un certain temps en raison d’une maladie. Après avoir recouvré la santé, elle a reçu une lettre secrète de son frère dans laquelle il lui disait avoir rêvé de manière étrange que la Princesse attendait un enfant. Elle précise enfin qu’elle retourne au palais à la demande de son frère.''

The Sister answer with prudence that she feels that something will happen without suspecting that the Princess is pregnant. She pursues by explaining that she had to return at home because of her brother disappearance and stayed there a while due to an illness. After recovering her health, she received a secret letter from her brother in which he told her he dreamed in a strange way that the Princess was awaiting a child. She precises to end that she returns to the Palace at her brother request.

''La dame de compagnie est satisfaite de cette explication, mais garde au fond d’elle la conviction que celui qui a mis la Princesse enceinte n’est autre que le frère de la Sœur. Sans dire un mot de la possible identité de l’homme, la Sœur a par conséquent réussi à convaincre la dame de compagnie que celui-ci avait secrètement arrangé une rencontre amoureuse entre la Princesse et le frère de la Sœur. En fait, c’est le Frère (alors qu’il se faisait passer pour une femme) qui a engrossé la Princesse. Une fois de plus, un rêve est utilisé pour contourner une situation délicate, avec une plus grande subtilité encore que dans les cas précédents.''

The lady in waiting is satisfied by this answer but keeps for herself the conviction that the one who made the Princess pregnant is no other than the brother of the Sister. Without saying the a word on the identity of the man, the Sister manage to convince the lady in waiting that this one arranged a lovers meeting between the Princesse and the Sister's brother. In fact, this is the Brother (then passing for a woman) who made the Princess pregnant. One more, a dream is used to go around a delicate situation, with subtilty than the previous cases.

''Nous avons vu que les rêves dans le Torikaebaya relèvent de trois niveaux différents. Le père de la Sœur, qui est Ministre de la Gauche, fait un rêve dont la profondeur lui révèle la vérité des choses. La Sœur se sert d’un rêve qu’elle n’a pas fait pour justifier son départ pour Yoshino : le rêve révèle les intentions de la conscience. Enfin, le second exemple de rêve de la Sœur est plus subtil, dans la mesure où elle parvient à transmettre sans le dire de fausses informations afin de faire comprendre la vérité. Ces trois niveaux correspondent de façon remarquable aux trois principaux lieux de l’action. Le rêve fait par le Ministre de la Gauche est directement rattaché aux événements de Yoshino. Le premier rêve de la Sœur a pour objectif d’éviter des troubles à Kyôto. Le second est lui aussi sciemment fabriqué, mais travaille au niveau subconscient pour cacher la substitution des identités de la Sœur et du Frère à Yoshino. On peut ici constater que les Japonais de l’époque avaient une perception remarquablement claire des différentes approches possibles du rêve.''

We have seen that the dreams in Torikaebaya have differents levels. The Sister father, who is the Left Minister, makes a dream which deepness reveals the truth of the things. The Sister uses a dream which she did not make to justify her departure for Yoshino : the dream reveals the intentions of the conscience. Finally, the second example of the Sister's dream is more subtle, in the way that she manages to convey with telling falses informations in order to understand the truth. Those three levels correspond remarquably to the three places of action. The dream made by the Left Minister is directly rattached to Yoshino events. The Sister's first dream has for objective to avoid Kyoto troubles. The second is consciously fabricated but works in the subconscious level to hidde the sister and brother identities substitution in Yoshino. We can constate here that the Japanese back then had a remarkably clear perception of the approaches of Dreams

Comment: Wow very close to the limit of my translation skill. The remaining text is even worse --KrebMarkt 13:37, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Ego & psyche in Torikaebaya part 1: ''Une analyse des déplacements de la Sœur, du Frère et de Chûjô révèle que ceux-ci se déroulent entre Kyôto, Uji et Yoshino. Or leurs déplacements et les actions afférentes rappellent ce que Jung appelait les catégories de « conscience », d’« inconscient individuel » et d’« inconscient collectif ». Les histoires où interviennent des changements d’identité sexuelle, comme dans certains contes de fée, sont interprétées par les jungiens comme révélatrices du processus d’individuation. Mon sentiment à l’égard de ces interprétations est qu’elles ont été essentiellement faites à partir du point de vue de l’ego. A savoir, que les différents procédés mis en œuvre sont perçus en termes d’établissement de l’ego et de ses efforts pour retrouver les couches les plus profondes de l’inconscient.''

A analysis of the displacements of the Sister, the Brother and Chujo reveals that they unfold between Kyoto, Uji and Yoshino. The displacements and the afferents actions recall what Jung called the categories of "conscious", of "individual unconscious" and "collective unconscious". The stories involving changes of sexual identity, like some fairy tales, are interpreted by jungians as individualization process revelatory. My feeling on those interpretations is there are essentially made from the ego point of view. To know, that the different processes used are perceived in term of ego establishment and its efforts to find the deepest layers of the unconscious

''Une approche similaire peut être tentée avec le Torikaebaya. Mais qui représente l’ego : la Sœur, le Frère ou Chûjô ? Et où se situe le combat contre le démon qui fonde le héros comme centre de la conscience ? Il n’y a aucun conflit crucial dans cette histoire, même s’il y a de nombreux personnages qui se battent pour essayer de réaliser leur vie personnelle. C’est pourquoi il vaut peut-être mieux ne pas considérer cette histoire du point de vue de l’ego.''

A similar approach was perhaps attempted in the Torikaebaya. But who represents the ego: the Sister, the Brother or Chûjo ? And where is situated the battle between the Deamon which fonds the heroes as the center of the conscious ? The is no crucial conflict in this story, even if there are many characters struggling to realize their personal life. That why it would be better to not consider this story from the ego point of view.

''Si toutefois on insistait pour définir un ego, Chûjô serait, à mon avis, le meilleur candidat. Il est beau, doué de plusieurs qualités et aimé des femmes. Il a une liaison avec l’épouse de la Sœur et apprend à cette occasion que le « couple » n’a jamais eu de relations sexuelles. Il a par ailleurs une autre liaison avec la Sœur et parvient même à lui faire quitter sa maison pour venir en secret à Uji. Avec tous ses talents, il paraît donc tout à fait désigné pour assumer le rôle de l’ego. Or quand la Sœur disparaît, il est complètement perdu. Néanmoins, à la fin, il épouse une belle princesse et connaît le bonheur.''

However if it is insisted to define the ego, Chujo would be, in my opinion, the best condidate. He is handsome, gifted with few qualites and loved by women. He has an affair with the Sister's wife and learns at this occasion the "couple" never had sexual relations. He also had an affair with the Sister and even managed to make her leave her house to come secretly in Uji. With all his talents, he seems perfectly designated to to assume the role of the ego. However when the Sister disappears, he is completely at loss. Nevertheless, in the end, he married a beautyfull princess and knows happiness.

Malgré tout, au lieu de clore l’histoire sur ces mots, l’auteur poursuit en évoquant la tristesse de Chûjô qui n’a pas oublié la disparition de sa bien aimée, à savoir la Sœur :

''« Il [Chûjô] se demandait quels étaient ses propres sentiments quand elle s’était résignée à ne plus jamais voir son fils, à ne pas le connaître et à s’en aller pour une réclusion éternelle. On m’a dit qu’il était rempli de tristesse, de peine, de sentiment de manque, et qu’il était submergé de chagrin. »''

''Je trouve cette conclusion, qui évoque la peine et les doutes de Chûjô, tout à fait surprenante. On a effet au début de l’histoire l’impression que ce dernier contrôle tout. Mais la disparition de la Sœur le contraint à admettre qu’il existe des choses qu’on ne peut comprendre. Bien qu’il parvienne à maintenir ses liens avec la princesse depuis Yoshino – qui représente la couche la plus profonde de la psyché – il ne peut se soustraire à la souffrance. Je serais tenté de dire que Chûjô est la caricature de l’ego moderne, contraint de souffrir à cause de sa propre arrogance.''

Even so, instead of closing the story on those words, the author pursued by evoking Chujo sadness who could not forget the diseappearance of beloved, the Sister:

"He [Chujo] asked himself what were her own feelings when she resigned to never see her son again, to not know him and to leave for an eternal reclusion. I'm told that he was full of sadness, sorrow, lacking something feeling and he was flooded with chagrin"

I find this conclusion which evokes the sorrow and the doubts of Chujo, really suprising. As in the beginning of the story we have the impression that the later one control everything. But the disaeppearance of the Sister constrained him to admit that there are things we can't understand. Even if you manages to maintain his links with the princess from Yoshini - which represents the deepest layer of the psyche - he can avoid the suffering. I'm tempted to say that Chujo is the caricature of the modern ego, constrained to suffer due to its own ego.

Comment: Difficult to translate as there are a lot of psychology related vocabulary. --KrebMarkt 12:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Ego & psyche in Torikaebaya part 2: ''Qu’en est-il à présent du Frère ? Au début, il est faible comme une femme. Mais il recouvre ensuite sa masculinité lorsqu’il aide sa sœur à quitter Uji pour retrouver son sexe. A la fin, il épouse la fille du Prince de Yoshino et atteint ainsi son objectif. Toutefois, à aucun moment, il ne s’engage dans un combat : même sa liaison avec la princesse est amorcée par l’entremise de sa sœur. On peut dire que l’ego du Frère est alimenté par la Sœur qui, elle, doit pendant longtemps agir et se battre comme un homme. En fait, cela nous amène à penser qu’il vaut sans doute mieux parler de la Sœur et du Frère comme de deux aspects d’un seul et même être, plutôt que comme deux individus distincts. Mais est-il possible que l’ego soit tantôt masculin, tantôt féminin ? Je pense que le couple Frère-Sœur exprime une composante importante de la psyché, mais pas un ego dans le sens ordinaire du terme. Leur capacité à échanger aisément leur rôle montre qu’ils ne forment qu’un seul être, toutefois l’identité de cet être est difficile à cerner. Les actions de ces deux personnages qui oscillent entre Kyôto et Yoshino est au cœur de l’intrigue. Et bien qu’ils ne soient pas en conflit ouvert avec d’autres personnes, ils doivent supporter de longues épreuves pour réaliser leur rêve.'' ''Plusieurs phénomènes psychiques se trouvent éclairés de façon très intéressante par cet être androgyne. Certes, on pourrait rétorquer que cet être n’est pas tangible, puisqu’il est sans cesse en train de changer de sexe et ne parvient jamais à constituer une véritable entité logique. Toutefois, je préfère clairement le modèle psychique qui correspond au travail réel de la psyché à celui qui donne l’illusion d’une consistance logique.''

Now what's about the Brother ? In the beginning, he is weak as a woman. But next he recovers his masculinity when he helps his sister to leave Uji to find back his sex. In the end, he marries the Prince's Yoshino daughter and achieve his objective. However, at no instant, he involves himself in a combat: even his affair with the princess is started with the intervention of his sister. One can said that the Brother's ego is feed by the Sister who, has to act and fight fro along time like a man. In fact, this lets us think that it would be better to speak about the Sister and the Brother as two aspects of a sole and unique being, rather the two distinct individual. But is it possible for the ego to be sometimes male and sometimes female ? I think that the couple Brother-sister express an important component of the psyche but not a ego in the usual meaning of the term. Their capabilities to switch easily their roles shows that they form a sole being, however the identity of this being is difficult to discern. The actions of those two characters who oscillate between Kyoto and Yoshino are at the core of the plot. Even if they are not in open conflict with other characters, they have to bear long struggles to realize their dream. Few psychics phenomenon are enlightened in interesting ways by this androgyne. It could be answered that this being isn(t tangible, it never ceases to change sex and never managed to constitute a true logical entity. However, i clearly prefer the psychic model corresponding to the real work of psyche rather than the one which gives the illusion of logical consistence. --KrebMarkt 07:56, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Ego & psyche in Torikaebaya part 3-end and Final conclusion: ''Chacun des événements de cette histoire peut être interprété selon différents points de vue, en l’occurrence, ceux de Chûjô, du Ministre de la Gauche, du Frère, de la Sœur. Chacun offre une perspective différente, et comme aucun ne propose une vue « objective » des choses, l’ambiguïté est inévitable. Le seul qui sache tout, à savoir le Prince de Yoshino, est parti. Il est par principe impossible de saisir cette histoire du point de vue de l’ego, car l’histoire elle-même est un paysage de la psyché.''

Each events of this story can be interpreted by different point of views, in this case, Chuko's, the Left Minister's, the Brother's and the Sister's one. Each offers a different perspective, and as none can offer an "objective/unbiased" view on the things, the ambiguity is unavoidable. The sole of who knows everything, the Prince Yoshino, has left. It is impossible to graps this story from the ego point of view because this story is herself a landscape of the psyche.

''On dit que Mozart a affirmé être capable d’entendre l’intégralité d’une symphonie en un seul instant. Il a écrit des symphonies de vingt à trente minutes pour que les gens puissent entendre ce que lui percevait en une fois. Peut-être l’histoire du Torikaebaya doit-elle être comprise comme une symphonie de Mozart. Bien qu’il faille des heures pour la lire, elle se comprend en un instant sublime, comme une magnifique description de la psyché et de ses innombrables concordances.''

It is said that Mozart affirmed to be able to hear a symphony's wholeness in one instant. He wrote symphonies from twenty to thirty minutes so people can hear what he perceived at once. Perhaps the story of Torikaebaya should be understood as a Mozart's symphony. While it takes hours to read it, it is understood in one sublime instant, as an magnificent description of the psyche and its countless concordances. --KrebMarkt 08:21, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment I'm done ;) Feel free ask me any question --KrebMarkt 08:21, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Re-reading the article
Ok as Malkinann asked i'm re-reading the article as a non-English speaking country nOOb.

Section story

3rd paragraph need some re-write as sentences have blurry meaning (at least to me) and there are some not feel that good repetition. "The Chūnagon becomes pregnant and hides herself away from the court. Naishi no Kami has sex with the princess, causing her to become pregnant. The Chunagon's brother seeks her out, and after she gives birth, the siblings swap places. When they swap places, because the tengu who cursed them in their previous lives to not be content with the sex they were born with has become a Buddhist (Willig's translation mistakenly says that it's the siblings' father who has turned to the path), the siblings' gender realigns with their sex."
 * Become(s) pregnant twice in two fellowing sentence, perhaps using impregnating can solve that
 * Seeks her out, first time i read it, i thought it was related to the princess in the previous sentence (going back and forth between the Sister, Princess and Sister again)
 * Swap places repeated :( maybe use reverted for the second one or see proposition below
 * The tengu curse could be put in an upward in 1st paragraph "a tengu cursed them in their previous lives to not be content with the sex they were born with" That would leave something like "...after she gives birth, the siblings swap places because the tengu who cursed them has become a Buddhist"

That are just some suggestions no need to take them as an order. I will continue on --KrebMarkt 19:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the eyes, Kreb. I promised I'd give the summary a copyedit a bit ago and still haven't gotten to it (heh) and pointing out the confusions is definitely useful. —Quasirandom (talk) 20:11, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I've found the part of the story detailing the Chunagon and Saisho's initial sexual encounter difficult, as well as the part about the tengu. I've just taken a stab at going through Childs' explanation of their encounter...  A fuller treatment of this part in the plot section would help. --Malkinann (talk) 23:03, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Section authorship

First paragraph:
 * This sentence should be moved to the end of the paragraph. "It is thought that the current version of the Torikaebaya is somewhere between the older and newer versions of the tale known by the author of Mumyōzōshi." As there is a definite closure feel in that sentence. Adding other sentences after that one give me an open file -> close file -> open file evolution within the paragraph.

Third paragraph: Need some ironing as that one focus on Time & Places of actions in the Torikaebaya Monogatari. The passage from the Time to Places of actions fall abruptly IMO.

More to come ;) --KrebMarkt 07:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

lol. Do we need more on the reactions of the Meiji critics? The Companion lists the genres as tsukuri-monogatari and giko monogatari, but the giko monogatari genre is disputed by another critic... What to do? --Malkinann (talk) 08:29, 7 April 2009 (UTC)