Talk:Toronto Argonauts

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I don't think you can call Pinball "African-Canadian"....He's from Florida.Habsfannova

He is in the process of becoming a Canadian citizen I believe. Canadian Mike


 * I actually met up with Pinball Clemons during Training camp this year, and asked him if he got his citizenship yet. He told me that he hasn't ... and that with his busy schedule, it'll likely be a while before he actually gets it. He is still just a Permanent Resident of Canada ... a status that he got around the turn of the century. Amchow78 19:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the reference to being the oldest pro sports team in North America. According to the Wikipedia, the Atlanta Braves (1871) and Chicago Cubs (1870) are both older. Radial
 * I re-inserted it as "one of the oldest" and "oldest to continue under the same name" since Atlanta Braves name is from 1965 and Chicago Cubs name is from 1902. Double Blue  (Talk) 14:51, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Since neither the Braves or Cubs are football teams, can't we call the Argonauts the oldest professional football team? I'm changing it, but if anyone comes up with a good reason why this isn't true, feel free to revert and give the reason below. (NorthernFalcon 03:20, 2 December 2007 (UTC))

Player flags
While the flags beside players names are pretty, I think it would be more useful, in the CFL context, to designate the players by IMP/NIP status. Any objections/comments/support? Double Blue (Talk) 14:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Blue uniforms
Since Toronto's colours are blue and white, i think we need a source for the assertion that Toronto teams wear blue in imitation of the Argos, especially as they wear the dark blue that's the city's colour. John FitzGerald 15:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Oldest franchise with same name
I removed the citation link to the Argos' website because it does not say that the Argos are the oldest pro sports team in North America with the same name. It says they are the oldest pro sports franchise in North America, which is at the very least highly arguable. For one thing, they were not a professional franchise until well on in their history. John FitzGerald 14:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The Wiki article for the Cincinnati Reds places their founding in 1869, a few years before the Argonauts. So I changed the wording to state that it is one of the oldest professional teams in North America (indeed in the world too). --Hprager 04:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Though the Cincinnati Reds claim to date back to the 1869 Cincinnati Red Stockings, they are not actually the same franchise. However, this discussion has taken place elsewhere on this page, where I believe it reached a logical conclusion.  As for the "in the world" claim, I think there are several English football (soccer) clubs that are older.94.112.217.193 (talk) 12:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

NFL in Toronto
I have restored the link to NFL in Toronto in the See also section. The subject article is related, especially since it discusses current support in Toronto municipal government for the Argos and against NFL expansion.

That said, I have restructured the See also list so it flows: CFL-related articles - comparison of Canadian v. American football - NFL in Toronto. —C.Fred (talk) 15:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Then you might as well link the Baltimore Stallions to the Baltimore Ravens page. It's a joke, and doesn't belong.  It's purely specualtive, and not even the same version of football.  All we've ever heard about the NFL in TOronto are rumours, and they were all false.--J3wishVulcan 23:30, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Argonauts GM Mike McCarthy
Under "1993", Argonauts GM Mike McCarthy is mentioned and linked to the article for current Green Bay Packers head coach Mike McCarthy. This article suggests he was working for the Kansas City Chiefs at the time, with no mention of the Argonauts. I suspect this is a different Mike McCarthy. Does anyone know?

It is a different Mike McCarthy. The Argo GM in 1993 is this Mike McCarthy, seen in a Toronto Star story: http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/252780 and is now with the Ti-Cats http://www.ticats.ca/index.php?module=staff&func=display&staff_id=60 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rankinke (talk • contribs) 14:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have added the appropriate link to the appropriate Mike McCarthy.Amchow78 (talk) 17:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

MOS:FLAG
What is the purpose of the flags in the Players and builders of note section? It does not appear very useful to me. Double Blue (Talk) 04:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Copyright problem
It has just been uncovered that one of the more prolific editors of this article, User:Hassanaskia, has a history of violating our copyright policies, and unfortunately he has tainted this article as well. Substantial content he has placed here has already been identified as having been copied from several external sources. The article needs to be rewritten to remove all of the content he added. This seems to have been the last edit before he began working on the article. It is possible to revert to it and use it as a base to begin adding back content that was provided by others. I do greatly apologize to those of you working in good faith who are set back by this problem, but unfortunately we cannot allow the copyright infringement to stand. :/ --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:27, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Ugh...I'll revert to the 2011 revision and start trying to restore content from others. TDL (talk) 20:06, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅ - I've reincorporated all the changes made by other users. That wasn't nearly as painful as I expected... TDL (talk) 20:49, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

What to do with all those yearly sections?
So I'd like to delve into improving this article's flow and readability but am confronted immediately with this wall of material: the 1990 onwards year-by-year overview. I would suggest cutting this and compressing by at least two-thirds. Any thoughts? Dontreadalone (talk) 04:45, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Going twice... Unless I hear otherwise I'm going to remove all of those yearly sections and add a new much compressed version. Dontreadalone (talk) 21:57, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it definitely needs to be done. Though rather than deleting the content entirely, it might be a good idea to merge it into the separate seasonal articles.  TDL (talk) 22:58, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I think a "History of..." article can take it for now. I'm waiting for my own history book to arrive and then we can get started. Did you know there are single season articles for the Argos all the way back to 1907 on here? Lots of material to organize! Dontreadalone (talk) 05:28, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to let you know I've moved those year-by-year summaries to List of Toronto Argonauts seasons. I realized at least some of those years were simply a copy/paste from the Argos website. Hopefully the summaries I've added instead are at the right level detail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dontreadalone (talk • contribs) 20:00, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Good Work! This article reads much better.
 * You're absolutely right about the source of the content. Seems to be a pretty clear WP:COPYVIO of .  Probably best to remove it from the encyclopedia all together.  TDL (talk) 23:15, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I concur. I see you've removed it, thank you. Thanks also for compliment on the work done. Next up I'm going to improve the layout on those link farms at the bottom of the article. I also feel Stadiums and Ownership deserve short sections. Dan would you be bothered if I remove the Team Facts from the top? It seems to me that all of that info should be incorporated elsewhere if it's not already. Dontreadalone (talk) 03:52, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * A second question for you: what do you think of that mass list in the Management section? Better as a sub-article list with a couple of paragraphs replacing it? Or does that do a disservice to all of those former personnel? Dontreadalone (talk) 04:20, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the team facts section seems to be standard on CFL team pages, but it's pretty ugly. I agree that the content would be better elsewhere.  Most of it just repeats the infobox anyways.
 * As for the Management section, I find it rather overwhelming to the article. We already have List of Toronto Argonauts head coaches, so removing the coaches and linking to that seems like a good start. The owners are probably all significant enough to warrant mention here, though it would be nice if there was some text to go along with it.  The GMs/Presidents I could go either way on.  TDL (talk) 19:29, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You'll notice the table I've created for All-Time and Hall of Fame Argos. I think it's quite tidy. I'll do something similar for GMs, Presidents, and Owners with a few paragraph description of ownership changes over time. Head Coach list can be left for the sub-article. Only trouble is I can't find a source for the coaches prior to 1907; I've pinged the editor who originally added that material to see if it can be tracked down. Dontreadalone (talk) 22:09, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

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Heismann Factoid
The Argonauts are one of six professional football teams to feature multiple Heisman Trophy winners on their roster. The champion 1997 team featured Doug Flutie and Andre Ware, the first time a team has had two Heisman winners at the quarterback position. The 2006 team featured Ricky Williams and Eric Crouch. The five other teams are the Dallas Cowboys, Detroit Lions and Los Angeles Raiders of the National Football League, and the Jacksonville Bulls and New Jersey Generals of the defunct United States Football League.


 * Posting this here so that we don't forget it. Maybe can be reincorporated. Source needed. Dontreadalone (talk) 00:27, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Status of the article
Having added a good ownership history section and brief note on rivalries, I can't think of any major facet of the topic the article fails to mention. Referencing is now quite good. Thanks to Danlaycock for being an extra pair of eyes while this was being revamped over the last month.

I just nominated this for Good Article status. The backlog there is a couple of months so I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime I'd like to track down some of the books that are in Further Reading and sprinkle some more cites throughout the article. I think a History of the Toronto Argonauts is also in order to absorb even more detail. If these two things get done then I think this main article can advance to a Featured Article nom.

Are there any subjects people feel are missed or neglected? Any other comments? Dontreadalone (talk) 06:13, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Looks great ! Excellent job on the rewrite!
 * For sources, I've got digital access to numerous newspaper archives (including the Globe and Mail: 1844-2009 and Toronto Star: 1894-2012) so if there's something you're looking for a cite for, just let me know and I'll try to dig something up. (I've been reading lots of old new lately to fill up Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment with refs.)  Google has a free preview of some of the further reading books ; .  Stephen Brunt's Grey Cup book might have some good stuff in it: .  TDL (talk) 01:13, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the copyediting, pics, and primary sources! I'm done the The Argo Bounce and there's nothing left in the article that really jumps out at me as needing attention. Do we just wait on the Good Article nom to run its course? I suppose there's no rush. Dontreadalone (talk) 02:52, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it looks pretty good to me! My only criticism upon re-reading the article is that I find it a bit WP:PEACOCKy.  Some examples: "Clemons ended his own brilliant run..."; "Ismail immediately impressed, particularly with spectacular kickoff returns..."; " Derrell "Mookie" Mitchell, another outstanding talent...".  While these adjectives might make the article more pleasant to read, encyclopedias are generally supposed to be written in a more impartial, formal (almost bland) WP:TONE.  I suspect that this is something that a reviewer will want to see changed before passing, so it might be a good idea to tone it down a bit first,
 * As for the timing, I think it would be nice to get a GA review, but GA is just so desperately backlogged. There are articles that were nominated in September that still haven't even had a review started yet!  FA, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have too bad of a backlog.  Another option would be to request a WP:Peer review of the article.  It looks like they're pretty quick with feedback, and could offer some guidance on if the article is ready, and if not what needs to be done to bring it up to the standards.  TDL (talk) 05:09, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed on the overly exuberant adjectives. I think I was channeling too much of the source material. Will audit for that or just be bold and drop over the top wording yourself.
 * Also agree that FA and PR (ironically) are the more scaleable option simply for getting someone to look at it. I will send it to the latter tomorrow(ish). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dontreadalone (talk • contribs) 04:33, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

The right "Burns"?
Any idea if Charlie Burns is the same person who owned the Argos? The article doesn't mention anything about it, and he would have only been 20 at the time of the purchase. The name is sufficiently common that I could see it being ambiguous. TDL (talk) 20:08, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
 * After further investigation, this says his name was "Charles Fowler William Burns" while the subject of the wiki article is "Charles Frederick Burns". I'll change the link.  TDL (talk) 20:14, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey, just noticed. I remember searching all over to better identify Burns but found nothing more out there. But I appear to have left that link wrongly kicking around, so thanks. Dontreadalone (talk) 00:24, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

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