Talk:Toronto Islands

Album photo
Bruce Cockburn's 1971 album High Winds White Sky features a cover photo of Bruce on Ward's Island after a snow storm in the winter of 1970/1971. Due to the amount of quite interesting trivia on this page I think it fitting that the Bruce Cockburn album cover be included - but understand the need to distance the page from coming off as an advertsing link. Any suggestion as to how the photo can be linked without violation of copyrights and without becoming just an advertising link? 


 * I don't think we can include it, not for the reasons you describe, but because album covers are copyrighted. We use them as fair use images sometimes, but fair use law in the US only applies to direct commentary on the work of art, as far as I can understand.  That is, we could use it on a page about the album, but it would be inappropriate to use it on a page about the Toronto Islands.  moink 23:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

commuter flights out of YTZ airport
I removed it last month, but it's been re-added. I reverted it, since I'm quite sure there's no commuter flight service out of Toronto Island Airport (Toronto City Centre Airport), but I wanted to put this here so future editors know: there really isn't any. - 66.92.73.52 22:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I just checked at matrix.itasoftware.com, and found that there's no flights scheduled until 3 July. I'll find out what that flight on 3 July is, as that might signal a restarting of commercial service at the airport, and warrant an edit of the page around then. - 66.92.73.52 22:33, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Images
The article is quite crowded, as everyone and their uncle has added their own snapshots of the Toronto Islands to the article. I will pick out the best ones, move the others over to the Commons, and insert a link to the Toronto Islands Commons gallery. The article will look better, and readers will be able to view a larger selection of images. Skeezix1000 14:25, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent work! Atrian 14:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Trick Question: Which is Centre Island?
The article defines Centre Island with the following:


 * The largest, outermost island, commonly called Centre Island, is crescent-shaped and forms the shoreline of both the Eastern and Western Channels. ... What is commonly called Ward's Island is actually the eastern end of Centre Island.

So according to WP, Centre Island is the outermost of the islands, which effectively shelters the harbour and all the other islands. However many maps mark Centre Island as a smaller island to the north of that, the island on which the Toronto->Centre Island ferry docks, and leave the much bigger outer island un-named.

See the following for example of maps that think Centre Island is the more northerly island:
 * Google Maps
 * MapQuest

On the other hand the following map seems to agree with WP:
 * TopoZone NRCan 1:5000

Can anybody clarify? -- Chris j wood (talk) 15:21, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The largest outer lying island IS Centre Island, oddly named as it is. The smaller island in the centre, used to be known as "Middle Island" but is now called "Centre Island Park." I am sure that is confusing. "Centre Island Park" contains the ferry docks, and the "Centreville Amusement Park." The problem is, nobody ever calls it "Centre Island Park," rather just shorten it to Centre Island. I hope that helps. Flibirigit (talk) 16:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry the following addition to this discussion is a bit long... but I think some major changes need to be made to the current descriptions for Toronto Island and Centre Island.

In the early 1800s, the area we know today as the Toronto Islands was a spit of land; it was known as the York Peninsula.

Here is a nice map from 1818: http://www.maptheuniverse.com/wp-content/themes/adsense_ready/images/toronto_1812.bmp

Notice there are no islands (big or small); all the land (and sand) on the peninsula was interconnected.

In 1858 a storm severed the peninsula from the mainland leaving a single island named "Toronto Island".

There is an historical plaque titled "Toronto Island" located near the Ward's Island Ferry Dock. A picture of the plaque can be found here: http://torontohistory.org/Pages_STU/Toronto_Island.html

In the late 1800s, a significant amount of dredging and backfilling was done on Toronto Island; this resulted in the creation of multiple independent islands.

At some point, the pluralized name "Toronto Islands" came into existence and and name Toronto Island was officially left for the main crescent shaped island.

The Canadian GeoNames database has entries with "official status" for both Toronto Island and Toronto Islands.

The GeoNames entry for Toronto Island (singular) has coordinates that fall in the widest spot on the main crescent shaped island (this happens to be the middle of the airport).

The GeoNames entry for Toronto Islands (plural) has coordinates that fall near the Centre Island Ferry Dock which is the geographic center of the entire group of islands.

Printed 1:50000 topographic maps from the Federal government have labels that are appropriately placed for both Toronto Island and Toronto Islands.

Now leaving officiality aside for a moment, I think it is safe to say that the terms: Toronto Island, The Toronto Islands, and The Island are, to this day, interchangeably used by the residents of Toronto to refer to the entire set of islands.

Also, the City of Toronto Archives defines Toronto Islands as an alternate name for Toronto Island.

To see the this in the archives start here: http://gencat.eloquent-systems.com/torontobasic.html

Click "advanced search" on the left.

Enter the number 768 in the "Forms part of" box. Leave the other boxes empty. Press the "Search" button.

Click on "Subseries 2 - Island files"

Click on individual link for Toronto Island

So... let me sum things up with some short definitions: The Toronto Islands: definition:  a group of islands located in the City of Toronto. Toronto Island: definition#1: the largest of the Toronto Islands; it is about 6km long and forms the shape of a crescent. definition#2: historical synonym for "Toronto Islands"... still in use today. The Island: definition:  term often used by Toronto residents to refer the Toronto Islands.

Now that we have some definitons for Toronto Island and Toronto Islands, let's look at defining Centre Island.

Centre Island is not (and never was) an island. The same can be said of Ward's Island.

Centre Island used to be a "community" in the center of Toronto Island. It contained a number of houses and businesses as well as a certain amount of marshland. None of the houses, the businesses, or the marshland remain today.

The Canadian GeoNames database has an entry for Centre Island; the specified longitude and latitude fall in the middle of the main crescent shaped island... half way between the Franklin Garden and the Fountains; but remember that each entry from the GeoNames database has only one set of coordinates... so this is not enough info to provide a complete definition of Centre Island.

The colorful Toronto Island Park tourist map published by Toronto department of Parks, Forestry and Recreation is of no help; it has a label for the Centre Island Ferry Dock but not for Centre Island itself.

Both the City of Toronto website for Toronto Island Park and the City of Toronto Permit Guide for the Island offer a little bit of info. Centre Island is defined with a short, simple description: "Centre Island is between Hanlan's Point and Ward's Island"

The City of Toronto Archives gives a much better definition of Centre Island. The archives contain a "scope note" for the geographic name "Centre Island"; the scope note reads: "Use to describe the lands and public park located in the central section of Toronto Island." We can assume that "Toronto Island" in this context refers to the entire set of islands and not just the crescent shaped island.

There is a similar "scope note" for geographic name "Ward's Island": "Use to describe records and published works dealing with the area at the northeastern end of Toronto Island."

To see the "scope notes" in the archives start here: http://gencat.eloquent-systems.com/torontobasic.html

Click "advanced search" on the left.

Enter the number 768 in the "Forms part of" box. Leave the other boxes empty.

Press the "Search" button.

Click on "Subseries 2 - Island files"

Click on individual links for "Centre Island", "Ward's Island".

Before attempting to further define Center Island, it is necessary to look at the physical island that contains the Centre Island Ferry Dock and Centreville Amusement Park (hover over this link and note the URL).

To the best of my knowledge, this island, which is about 0.3 km2 in size is unnamed.

There is no name listed in the Canadian GeoNames database and there is no name labeled on federal 1:50000 topographic maps. This unnamed island was created by backfilling swamps and lagoons between 1885 and 1887. The result was a large picnic park named "Island Park".

The maps in the City of Toronto Permit Guide for the Island) place a label of "Island Park" on top of the unnamed island. The same maps also place a label of "Centre Island" on top of the middle section of the main crescent shaped island.  Both labels appear in the same font.  This might imply that Centre Island and Island Park should be considered as two independent places; perhaps for a time they were. But today, I would expect that the name "Island Park" would be unknown to most people; the whole area on both sides of Long Pond has become known as "Centre Island".

The current Wikipedia article refers to the unnamed island as "Middle Island". Where did this come from? Did somebody get it from Google Maps? or possibly a Toronto Star article which may have been based on info from Google Maps? A query of the Canadian GeoNames database brings up five "Middle Islands" in Ontario but none of them are anywhere near Toronto. Likewise, a query "Middle Island" on the Toronto Archives website brings up nothing relevant.

If we need a more definitive definition for modern day Centre Island, it should probably include: The secton of the main cresent shaped island from the filtration plant to somewhere near St. Andrew-by-the-Lake Church. This includes Manitou Beach (Centre Island Beach), the fountains, the maze, the bike rentals, the Franklin Garden, and the Island Public School. AND The unnamed island containing the Centre Island Ferry Dock and Centreville (but possibly excluding the Toronto Island Marina). AND Olympic Island AND Alan A. Lamport Regatta Course which lies at the eastern end of Long Pond. AND Lagoons which lie between the areas listed above. MapGrid (talk) 06:03, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Hurricane Hazel
I've taken out the line about Hurricane Hazel altering Island topography, since, as far as I can tell, it didn't. Consulting Gibson's book on the Island, a comparison of the community's June 13, 1953 map (p. 238) with the city's official May, 1955 map (p.246) shows no significant changes (the hurricane came through on October 15, 1954). Gibson comments that the Island was less affected by the hurricane than other parts of the city (p. 243). Driftglass (talk) 09:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Public access between airport and the rest of islands
This article states there is no public access between airport and the rest of islands. This has been questioned in a discussion on Talk:Toronto Island ferry services. If you can contribute, please do so there. -- Chris j wood (talk) 09:05, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * As that discussion noted, the access in question is limited to TTC bus runs when the inner harbor freezes over in cold weather. This allows island residents to "catch a bus" when the main ferries cannot run. The bus then runs across the airport lands to the airport ferry, which can be kept ice-free. Under other circumstances the route is closed, and I would suspect that the bus does not stop within the airport when it is in use. Maury Markowitz (talk) 18:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I am extremely skeptical that busses have run across the frozen harbour in recent decades. The harbour does freeze over.  It froze over several times last winter -- was frozen for several weeks around Christmas.  But ice has to be over a foot thick to support the weight of heavy trucks -- or busses.  Was there a time when the harbour was frozen long enough for the ice to get that thick?  Possibly.  But I would be extremely surprised if the Weather was that cold, for that long, anytime in the last four decades.  Geo Swan (talk) 16:12, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


 * To the best of my knowledge busses don't run over the frozen over harbour and have never done so. When the regular (Wards, Centre, Hanlin's) ferry's aren't able to run because of the ice a bus is run across the island to the airport ferry dock.  As far as I know this is the only public access between the airport and the rest of the island.  Otherwise, if someone was at the airport fence on the same side as the Hanlin's Point ferry dock the only way to the other side of that fence is to go back to the city and board the airport ferry at the foot of Bathurst St.  kev. (talk) 15:11, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

The use of motor vehicles is limited to service vehicles and island residents
I've copy edited the section on roads to clarify and/or remove some inconsistencies. It is motor vehicles that are limited, not all vehicles, as bikes are welcome. And a single lane road has one lane used (with care) in both directions, not one lane per direction. But the article is still left with the statement:


 * The use of motor vehicles is limited to service vehicles and island residents.

I'm not sure that island residents are allowed unlimited use of motor vehicles. Can anybody provide a source for this? -- Chris j wood (talk) 12:32, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In fact, I've just noticed this statement is flat contradicted by the article lede (largest car-free community, etc), text that has been present and uncontested for some time. So I've removed the 'and island residents'. -- Chris j wood (talk) 12:45, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Is it possible to er a citation for the statement "The island community is considered to be the largest urban car-free community in North America, although some service vehicles are permitted"? Mackinac island in Lake Huron-Michigan is 9.8 square kilometers and is also car-free, according to its Wikipedia page.

Centre Island
Strange that the article offers no historic photo of Centre Island, with its "main drag" of hotels and shops & its many stately mansions. Yet there are historic photos of both Hanlans and Wards. ???--dunnhaupt (talk) 22:33, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Harleen

Grade6 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.89.245.31 (talk) 01:13, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Squatters
How is it that we can have an entire section on the city bulldozing homes on the island without ever mentioning the word "squatter"? Yes, you could argue that the current residents "purchased" their homes from the original squatters and presumably that is why they were eventually offered 99 year land leases. It's disingenuous to not mention that it all began with people building homes and/or cottages on land that they didn't own. Some people received something for nothing at the expense of the public purse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.58.121.112 (talk) 14:15, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I see no particular need for that word with its negative connotations. The information in the article conveys the origins of the community: people pitching tents on government property. It also states that the government accepted this action and accommodated it with urban planning. A neighbourhood thus developed over time. It hardly seems like an injustice to the public interest; it's simply an alternate history to the usual narratives of neighbourhood development in Toronto. A.Roz (talk) 23:44, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Map improvements
The map should be updated with the current name of the airport. Also, the Eastern Gap and Western Gap should be labeled. --174.89.49.204 (talk) 20:45, 10 August 2020 (UTC)