Talk:Torture in Ukraine/Archive 2

Torture during the 2014 Russian invasion of Ukraine- Do any factual inaccuracies remain?
This section has undergone significant revision since the factual accuracy tag was added. Do any factual inaccuracies remain? If so, please describe the claim that you believe to be inaccurate, and the manner in which the claim is not supported by the source. Masebrock (talk) 19:29, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
 * At this point, it's more a matter of WP:DUE and WP:UNDUE. For example, this source, which is used in the paragraph, begins by saying "Both the Ukrainian government authorities and Russia-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine have held civilians . . ." Similarly, the source starts off with "Arbitrary detentions, sometimes involving torture, are taking place in Eastern Ukraine both by Ukrainian authorities and Russian-backed separatists". Yet somehow the article sentence does not mention the Russian side. The Times source given does in fact support the sentence. But the situation gives rise to further suspicion of cherry picking. Finding stuff about Russian torture takes just seconds . Adoring nanny (talk) 20:43, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
 * We could have a subsection on "Torture by pro-Russian separatists". That would help us to avoid that any statement about the possible responsibilities of the Ukrainian government/forces is accompanied by a statement aimed at balancing it (and justifying it) with the responsibilities of the separatists (like here ). Otherwise this is no longer an article about torture in Ukraine, but about the war in Ukraine. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 21:19, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree that this section needs to also mention the secret prisons and arbitrary detention of the pro-Russian side (and there are indeed plenty of sources to work with), perhaps split into different sections as Gitz suggests. How about something like During the conflict, Russian-backed groups operated secret detention centers where arbitrary arrest and torture took place., as a start? Masebrock (talk) 21:37, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
 * So, you asked: "Do any factual inaccuracies remain?". Well, as written, I would say this is close to a lie by omission. It simply tells that the "both sides are responsible" for torture, with a reference . But this is a very complex subject. For example, the used source tells: "Amnesty International has also identified at least three recent incidents where separatist fighters summarily killed a total of at least eight pro-Kyiv fighters.", but it tells nothing about such killings by the other "side". And what "sides" exactly? Would a paramilitary organization ("a nationalist militia") qualify as a "side" of the Ukrainian government? I do not know, but would a crime committed by a USA paramilitary extremists qualify as a crime committed by US government? Many of the described atrocities have been committed at the territory effectively controlled by the Russian government. So maybe that was Russian rather than a Ukrainian torture? Such things should be reflected in text. And so on. One must use a lot of different sources here, not just a couple of random reports, and write down some kind of neutral encyclopedic content. The current version failed to do that. My very best wishes (talk) 22:50, 28 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Since it looks like the article name is on its way to being redirected (see, I believe that any non-duplicate content should go into the Humanitarian_situation_during_the_war_in_Donbas article, as that's where it belongs. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:15, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I suppose it doesn't really matter at this point. Masebrock (talk) 00:32, 29 November 2022 (UTC)