Talk:Tottenham Hotspur F.C./Archive 5

Pronunciations of Tottenham
I added a pronunciation, [ˈtɒʔnəm], that was in one of the existing sources. But this pronunciation was removed, as was the source. The reasons for removal were very unclear: "not əm" and "glottal stop not phonemic". The glottal stop is found on the IPA page for English, and on the Wiki page for the glottal stop it even says "In English, the (phonemic) glottal stop ...", so claiming the glottal stop isn't phonemic doesn't make sense at all. Aikclaes (talk) 05:47, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * said (ə|m not əm; glottal stop not phonemic so rm) so I went be that. Yours doesn't make sense either, how does a ? "uh-oh" (glottal stop) make Totten'ham? You don't add a glottal stop in it do you?, The 1st reference you added seems very incorrect in pronunciation. She even pronounces it wrong, she says Totnem! When it should sound more like Tot'Ten'ham. As for 2, only one user has pronounced it correctly as that's Topquark, but because that's a site which allows users to add their own content that actually deemed unreliable and shouldn't even be used. So you're interpretation is floored if you're allowing these poor sources to influence you. I am inclined to revert it back. Govvy (talk) 18:12, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * No, you didn't quote 's argument correctly. It's better to use your own arguments, than copy others, especially if you don't understand them. It's difficult discussing English phonology with someone who obviously has no training in it. I simply don't understand what you're trying to say. And I'm not sure if you mean you think my interpretation is "floored" or "flawed", but Forvo is used as a source for lots of pronunciations here on Wikipedia, for instance Augusto Pinochet. It gets kind of surreal when you start reviewing the different pronunciations there and decide which ones are correct, based on personal taste. Aikclaes (talk) 05:13, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Please ping me when you're discussing my edits. The reasons weren't unclear, you need to read phoneme and allophone. The glottal stop you're talking about is the glottal stop in uh-oh, not the glottal stop in Tottenham . In uh-oh, one could argue that the glottal stop has a phonemic status, since it appears in a syllable-final position after which can never occur syllable-finally (save for word-internal unstressed syllables). The first glottal stop of uh-oh can be argued to be  pronounced with a mandatory hard attack (a glottal stop before a vowel). Phonetic, but mandatory (you don't normally say uh-oh with just one glottal stop, do you?) But in Tottenham the glottal stop is an allophone of , not a phoneme. You can say  or  and you'll be understood. But you can't pronounce uh-oh as . Here's a quote from the 8th edition of Gimson's Pronunciation of English:
 * Some GB (=General British) replace (sic) syllable-final by  when a consonant follows, no oral closure being made. Such glottal replacement most commonly affects  when the following consonant is homorganic, i.e.  as in (...) witness, not now (...) Use of  to replace  in other positions, i.e. before syllabic  and , e.g. in cotton, (...) eat an apple, bat and ball (...) was until recently stigmatised as non-GB but all except  are now acceptable in London RGB (=London Regional General British=Estuary English).
 * Calling the glottal realization of 'replacement' was a bad choice because  are enclosed within phonemic slashes.
 * The lead of glottal stop was wrong and I corrected it. Mr KEBAB (talk) 18:41, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but you're wrong in calling the pronunciation incorrect. It's a completely natural pronunciation in England. The only thing that is wrong is that the source incorrectly encloses the transcription within phonemic slashes (*). They should've written  or . Mr KEBAB (talk) 18:56, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I've just checked the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (3rd ed.) and the Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary (18th ed.). The RP recordings say in both dictionaries. In the LPD, the GA recording says . In the CEPD it says . Mr KEBAB (talk) 19:06, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * , the CEPD version seems more natural to me for the modern pronunciation, the others seem to derive out of either the old or the slang, if you goto Tottenham it says "It was recorded in the Domesday Book as Toteham" So are should we have the modern next to the old? Govvy (talk) 19:39, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your insight. So, there's no reason to leave out the pronunciation in this article then, is there? Aikclaes (talk) 05:13, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The transcription you want to reinstate is, not . The latter is phonemically and it's already in the article. The former is just plain wrong for the reasons explained above. Again, you need to read phoneme and allophone. Mr KEBAB (talk) 05:19, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, fair enough. Thanks. Aikclaes (talk) 05:31, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Unless you actually want to add (enclosed within phonetic brackets) to the article. There's no need to do that either, since the glottalization is perfectly obvious from the fact that the  is unstressed, postvocalic and appears before . It's automatic. Mr KEBAB (talk) 05:23, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you mean. Mr KEBAB (talk) 19:53, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Is the IPA not derivative of pronounce of Tottenham? Because there is old English, modern English and slang, are they not taken into account for IPA? Govvy (talk) 20:43, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * IPA transcriptions of English tell us how the word is pronounced in natural speech in modern English in two reference accents: Received Pronunciation and General American. Old English has nothing to do with this. What you call "slang" are actually hundreds of regional accents that are perceived as "non-standard". That's also not the topic of this discussion. Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:00, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * , I was born in London and English is my native language, IPA is a different more advanced level of English, I have been trying to get my brain around it, which can be annoying because I grew up with dyslexia. I hope we aren't using American here for an English article. What I am trying to get my head around is why the phonic is, because (Ten) as saying the Number 10 (Ten) is part of the modern pronunciation, the middle part of Tottenham, the E isn't silent and shouldn't be silent, why one of the previous sources provided which you remove said the E was silent I didn't understand that. My gut is telling me the IPA is wrong. You should listen to they way the professional readers read out the scores of football matches and how they pronounce Tottenham, Govvy (talk) 20:47, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:00, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * lying? trolled? I don't understand. I am trying to understand why it says Totnem! I am reading the IPA if it was plain English, I really don't understand it, how are other people suppose to understand it? It's not normal English, Dutch or even Chinese. Govvy (talk) 21:05, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:08, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * FFS, watch this and see how he pronounces Tottenham, FA Cup Final 1967. Govvy (talk) 21:10, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * He says, with two syllables. Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:12, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and consider your mistakes to be genuine (I'm still puzzled by the overly definitive tone of your messages, but let's put it aside). Did you grow up in Norwich or Chicago by any chance? These accents have that is so central that it can be mistaken for a schwa. It would explain why you thought that 'ten' in 'Tottenham' is pronounced as the number 'ten', but it wouldn't explain why you considered the disyllabic version to be wrong (which it clearly isn't, it's as standard as the trisyllabic one). I still don't quite understand the situation. Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:37, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Nope, I grew up in Tottenham and Southgate! :/ Govvy (talk) 21:43, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Ok. In that case, I still don't understand. Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:32, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

I'd change it to the 18 February 2017 version from the Tottenham article. This edit updates the version that had existed in the article for a long time, removing a depreciated character. This seems to accurately reflect the ways that Tottenham is pronounced and any change should have a clear and sourced reason (not just removing a source). "Tottenham is an area in the London Borough of Haringey, in north London, England." To me and  seem the most usual, but the "e" is sometimes pronounced. And then there is Ossie's unique take. Jts1882 (talk) 07:48, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
 * So you didn't read our discussion. is wrong because it is enclosed within phonemic slashes.  here is not a phoneme but an allophone of, and  is already in the article. Mr KEBAB (talk) 14:59, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Rewritng
Just a note that I will be expanding the History section (partly from the History of Tottenham Hotspur F.C.) within a few days as the content here is too short. I will also trim the Stadium section since the amount there is a bit on the excessive side. I hope that it will be a more balanced article when finished. Those who feel like contributing to the rewriting as well are welcome. Also a note to anyone who has any good photo from the late 1980s to 1990s period of Spurs matches (featuring say Gascoigne, Lineker, Klinsmann, Ginola, Sheringham, etc.), and are willing to donate them to Wikimedia Commons (they need to be yours), please do so so we can use them to illustrate the History article or the section here. They will be much appreciated as there are very few images of the club from that period available for use in Wikipedia. Hzh (talk) 11:09, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2017
The link to the cockerel redirects to cock-fighting. it should link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooster 70.68.229.188 (talk) 10:49, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I assume the link to cock-fighting is because the Spurs cockerel has fighting spurs. This alludes to the supposed interest of Harry Hotspur in fighting cocks, which is mentioned in the article, although the linked article doesn't really provide any insight relevant. A link to a specific section on the fighting spurs could be relevant but that information is dispersed throughout the article. I'm not sure the rooster article is any more helpful, unless people really don't know what a cockerel is. If a link is absolutely necessary, then I'm leaning slightly towards making the change, but I'll wait to see if anyone feels strongly one way or the other.  Jts1882 &#124; talk 11:17, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * If you jump down to Crest part of the article this explains the importance of the cockerel as Tottenham's symbol and why it's linked that way. Govvy (talk) 11:53, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2018
ArsenalFanTV (talk) 15:24, 21 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Not going to be done. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 15:37, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)
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Tottenham music song articles
I was wondering if Hot Shot Tottenham!, Nice One Cyril Ossie's Dream (Spurs Are on Their Way to Wembley), Tottenham, Tottenham and When the Year Ends in One should be combined into one article. Thoughts people? Govvy (talk) 20:39, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I think not. Individual songs generally have their own article, only covers or variations of a song would be put into a single article. However, it might be possible to have an article that lists all the songs related to Tottenham Hotspur, there are others that aren't given here, for example The Victory Song by Chas and Dave. There is for example an article on List of England football team songs, although I'm not sure if there is one for a specific club yet. Hzh (talk) 22:14, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Would it be enough for a list article? Govvy (talk) 22:37, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Off the top of my head I can think of 8 songs, here 27 songs are given -, although not all of them can be considered Spurs song, but you might have around 15 valid ones. Obviously there are more if you include songs performed by individual Spurs' players, for example Diamond Lights by Hoddle and Waddle. There are also other songs that are somehow related to Spurs, for example Barry Manilow's Can't Smile Without You. Hzh (talk) 22:51, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Might be enough for a list then, would they all pass GNG? Govvy (talk) 22:56, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
 * There are many lists that have fewer entries, but of course, it depends on whether people other think that it is notable enough to stand on its own. I'll probably need to think about it a little. Hzh (talk) 23:04, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I think it's marginal. There are sources that discuss the list of Spurs songs that might satisfy the criteria per WP:LISTN, others might quibble at the sources. This might be the first of such list for a football club if created (are there others?), so it may draw attention from other editors. I don't mind creating this article, although probably not just yet. Hzh (talk) 11:53, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Just adding a note that in addition to this, there are other articles on the club that may need to be created, for example on its fandom and training facilities (Cheshunt, Spurs Lodge in Chigwell, and the current training centre in Enfield), as well as organisations such as Tottenham Hotspur Foundation. Anyone who has the time to do it, please feel free to do so. I will probably add a section on its facilities here in the future. Hzh (talk) 11:07, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Tottenham Website
Note to editors; Tottenham have updated their website so a number of citations might need correcting/updating. Regards Govvy (talk) 13:14, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

First paragraph of the history section,
I read this sentence through a couple of times "In April 1884, because mail for another club London Hotspur was misdirected to North London, the club was renamed Tottenham Hotspur Football Club to avoid any further confusion." And I am not quite sure about it, feels fragmented and thought it could do some some adjustment. Govvy (talk) 16:33, 2 July 2018 (UTC) In April 1884 mail for another club, London Hotspur, was misdirected to North London, leading the club to be renamed "Tottenham Hotspur Football Club" to avoid any future confusion between the two. I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse. Thoughts? --Philk84 (talk) 07:08, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Perhaps something like
 * I think the name change should be stated first, e.g. In April 1884 the club was renamed "Tottenham Hotspur Football Club" to avoid confusion with another club, London Hotspur, whose post had been mistakenly delivered to North London.  Jts1882 &#124; talk 08:21, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks guys, I like what Jts1882 put so I changed it to that, cheers. Govvy (talk) 13:17, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Kit
In the kit section, there is the following text: "However, the attempt by the Tottenham to expand the business side of the club failed"

I'm referring to "the Tottenham" - should that be just "Tottenham", or is there something missing like "the Tottenham Board"? --Philk84 (talk) 11:45, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * It's an error, now fixed. If you see any grammatical error or typo in the article, feel free to correct them. Hzh (talk) 11:50, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I would have corrected it, but I wasn't sure if the "the" was the problem, or if there was a missing word after "Tottenham". Cheers Hzh. --Philk84 (talk) 11:59, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Home Ground
Isn't the home ground officially Wembley until after the Fulham game? The home ground registered with the PL was Wembley this past season and will be Wembley for the opening game of next season. Only after this game will the home ground registered with the PL league will be changed to the new stadium.  Jts1882 &#124; talk 07:34, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree that the home ground should be Wembley for the first home game of the season, otherwise it would read strange when they play their home game there. It can be changed after that. Hzh (talk) 09:31, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * O, didn't notice this before, I changed it to the new stadium, playing one at Wembley doesn't really count as a Home stadium to me, Govvy (talk) 15:42, 29 July 2018 (UTC

Featured Article
This article is good, deserves to be a featured article. Can't anyone do anything ?
 * Probably needs a few adjustments first. There are a few things I thought needed mentioning in there but haven't got round to it. If anyone has any suggestion for improvement, then please do so before nominating it for a featured article. Hzh (talk)

Formation and early years
I'm a little confused by this sentence: "The following year, on 27 April 1901, Spurs won the FA Cup by beating Sheffield United 3–1 (in a replay of the 1901 Cup final)". So the 1901 cup final was a replay of the 1901 cup final? (which makes no sense at all unless there were 2 different cup finals that year - and the link doesn't help) Or was the final replayed before a result was had? This could be improved by clarifying. Ka-ru (talk) 05:58, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It was a replay of the final after the first game ended 2-2. I've reworded it and changed the link to the article on the final.   Jts1882 &#124; talk 08:05, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you. That is so much clearer. Ka-ru (talk) 08:19, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Nickname
I want to add yid/yiddet to nickname maybe we can make it a new section in the bio simchabi 21:19, 12 March 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simchaboi (talk • contribs)
 * Please don't do it. Even if some fans call themselves yids, it is used in a derogatory sense by non-fans for the club. Don't add what might be considered derogatory in the infobox. The use is already described in some details in the article and why it is controversial, adding controversial usage in the infobox is objectionable. Hzh (talk) 21:36, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
 * This has been discussed before and Yid, Yid Army are not a nickname for the club, it's a nickname for the fans, there-for shouldn't be included in the infobox. Also Tottenham have also announced and want to disassociate from the use of such terms. It should never be added in this fashion and should be reverted straight away. Govvy (talk) 22:00, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Fans of rival clubs do use the Yids as the name for the club or team, and it's meant to be derogatory. Spurs fans may called themselves Yids, but they don't call the club the Yids. Hzh (talk) 22:11, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 April 2019
Fernando Llorente, our saviour. Tobyt23 (talk) 12:30, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. aboideautalk 12:35, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Likely to be just a piece of exuberance following Llorente scoring the goal which put the team into the Champions League semi-final, and may just be deleted.LenF54 (talk) 17:02, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

1950–51 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season
If anyone is interested, I've added 1950-51 season. Still needs a lot of work know. Govvy (talk) 16:15, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 July 2019
Please change "Northumberland Development Project was signed 20 September 2011.[72]" to "Northumberland Development Project was on signed 20 September 2011.[72]" because of a grammatical error. Thank you! Kelveensidhu (talk) 09:30, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅  Jts1882 &#124; talk 09:34, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Josh Onomah
Josh Onomah is not on loan at Fulham he signed a permanent deal in exchange for us signing Ryan sessegnon for 25 million Chrisq89 (talk) 17:52, 8 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Govvy (talk) 17:53, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Joshuav77
Oliver Skipp? Joshuaav17 (talk) 18:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

"TottenhamHotspur.com" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect TottenhamHotspur.com. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. The Banner talk 14:08, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

1949–50 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season
Have added another season article if anyone is interested. Govvy (talk) 13:17, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I might be able to help generate the data tables for these season articles (matches, squads). I have most seasons in a database so I could probably generate the required wikitext (assuming I can understand code I wrote years ago).  Jts1882 &#124; talk 15:33, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 October 2019
Tottenham Hotspur have sacked their manager and appointed Aahil Hameed. This is amazing as they will win all matches and gain trophies as they go Suduhbakar1 (talk) 17:14, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hzh (talk • contribs) 19:06, 6 October 2019 (UTC)