Talk:Touch the Clouds

copyedit tag added
Hi there, I added the tag so that this article will get looked at by the WP:LoCE. This person definately deserves an article and thankyou to those who have started it. I see from previous notes here that English may not be the first language of the creator so don't take offense, I just want the article to be improved! Thanks.-- killing sparrows  (chirp!) 18:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for helping me, Hippie! -)-(-H- (&#124;-&#124;) -O-)-(- 10:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

NPOV Tag
I'm doing NPOV tag cleanup. This tag was placed without discussion on the talk page. Discussion is required so that the one placing the tag can state clearly what it is they find amiss, and to permit other users to discuss and resolve any such reasonable issues. This is a drive-by tagging and will be removed. Any discussion may be directed here or to my talk page. If you tag, state why clearly and thoroughly on the talk page. Jjdon (talk) 23:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Improvements
This article clearly needs some improvements. J.B. (talk) 11:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I added the source tag accordingly.  I also removed the lines that stated that Touch the Clouds was at Little Bighorn, and though he may have been allied with Crazy Horse, I can't find any references that states he fought during the conflict of 1876-77.  The references that I have state that Touch the Clouds remained at the Cheyenne River Agency throughout the conflict, though he was there at Crazy Horse's death. CosmicPenguin (Talk) 15:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your work here. I completed referencing the article. And yes, he fought at Little Bighorn in 1876. Great Gall (talk) 12:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The gallery reference is hardly reliable. According to the Camp interviews, at least one chief said that there were no Minneconjou chiefs at Little Bighorn.  And Cheyenne River Agency records show that Touch the Clouds was in council with the Army in July, which would have been unlikely if he had been at Little Bighorn at the end of June.  I will ping an expert in the area to stop by and give an opinion. CosmicPenguin (Talk) 16:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Cosmic penguin this is the worlds best article nomiate it for GA! 145.99.106.218 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:21, 22 November 2008 (UTC).

this is the best article ever!
this is the best article ever! this is the best article ever! this is the best article ever! this is the best article ever! this is the best article ever! this is the best article ever!

145.99.106.218 (talk) 17:19, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

it really is! nominate it for GA!

Even if it is "the best article ever" (which I do not claim, since I haven't analyzed all other articles), that is no reason to spam the talk page by saying it six times in a row. Well, at least you signed your post... Xavius, the Satyr Lord (talk) 14:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Height and Weight
To the individuals who keep inserting the line about Touch the Clouds height and weight, please double-check your references. They appears to be incorrect. Incidentally, in the 1877 photographs of Touch the Clouds where he is standing with other Lakota, he is clearly not 7 feet tall. More importantly, this is not what makes him important and worth inclusion in the wikipedia. The first paragraph should be a summary of why he is important -- which includes his position as a leader among the Minneconjou, his reputation in battle, his skill as a diplomat, and the fact that he was part of a dynasty of leaders from the Lone Horn family. Debates about his weight and height should be nothing more than a footnote. --User:Ephriam3


 * He is not standing on the 1877 photograph, he is sitting. That makes a huge difference. In sitting position, he seems taller then the others. Besides: most sources may put him at 7 feet, others put him at just 6 feet 5 inches. That would be closer, probably, but it should be mentioned. He was a very skilled warrior and strong as an ox. When Crazy Horse got stabbed, he carried him in his arms as if he where a child and put him on a table - unless Crazy Horse was a dwarf, that would mean Touch the Clouds was a very large man. I am going to include the line about his size, but this time no in the lead, but further down the article, agreed? Jouke   Bersma   Contributions  08:08, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, the source you listed isn't reliable. I searched at length, and found no reliable sources that put him at 7' feet high (and not even the source you gave states he was 400 pounds; the pictures do not show a 400 pound man, even if he is 7 feet tall).  The only one I found was the newspaper article that listed him at 6'5".  I'm a little bemused that this would be an area of debate - even if slightly inaccurate, 6"5 and 240 pounds means that was a large and imposing figure.  Inflating the values doesn't do anything for the article or his legend.  I'm going to follow Ephriam's advice and move the "controversy" to a footnote. CosmicPenguin (Talk) 18:13, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I finally found the reference in Hardorff's book and corrected the page number in the reference. Incidentally, Touch the Clouds is standing in two of the photographs taken in the 1877 delegation series. One shows him as part of the entire delegation, taken by Alexander Gardner; the second is a individual portrait of him by the Ulke brothers, though there is no one else in the image so you do not get a sense of scale there. I am comfortable with the reference to 6'5", but without documentation of any kind, not comfortable with the 7' 400 lb. comment. I hope the chanages made will be satisfactory to everyone. --User:Ephriam3

They are. And, what do ya think, will the article pass GA nominations? That would be great: Ephraim, you've done good work and this would be good. Jouke  Bersma   Contributions  10:42, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

GA review
The article passes the GA review. The article is:
 * Well written
 * Well referenced
 * Of good spelling
 * Well illustrated
 * Images have no copyright issues

Article has a good lead, no sources in it, it reads well. It passes on all account one could imagine. It is a fine article it most definetely is. Looking at the articles history I noticed that until about 2 weeks ago, it was not even half as good as it is know, some three editors have worked very hard on expanding and referencing it. Especially Ephriam3, Jouke Bersma and CosmicPenguin. The article is not very long though, if you ever want it to make FA class it has to be expanded and made twice as long. Also I would recommend searching some more images once the article will be expanded. I am not going to be ignorant and fail it because it only has two images - the article passes! Cheers! Great Gall (talk) 17:43, 28 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Improper review by a new user, not valid, see Wikipedia_talk:Good_article_nominations -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bluptr (talk • contribs)

Why on earth is my review improper? I have read this article again and again and closely studied the needed criteria. Based on my findings I decided to pass the article. I honestly feel to see the problem here. Okay, I am new here, so what? I've been watching wikipedia from my IP adress much longer and closely read the rules long before I even joined in in the first place. Now all of a sudden my review is "improper"? How's that? I read how I should do it and did as I should. The article passed and currently is a Good Article (GA). So what? Great Gall (talk) 18:36, 28 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Your review is "improper" because it does not take into consideration a basic rule for a Good Article--The article should have a proper lead, and every reviewer should follow the template... consider going thru the guidelines here: Good article criteria -- Bluptr (talk) 14:28, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Crazy Horse's death
Currently, the article states:

"Touch the Clouds carried his dying cousin to the desk of an officer and laid him on a red blanket. He was with him at the time of his death and delivered Crazy Horse's body to his father."

I'm not sure of the validity of that statement, but it is well beyond my expertise, so I was hoping someone else could confirm. The attached ref is Hardorff (2001), but that was originally attached to the preceeding line, and I don't have sufficient access to check it - if it is from that work, it might be from page 58, but that's all I know. I have seen other references, but they all seem to vary significantly from each other. In addtion, the original line stated that Touch the Cloud delivered Crazy Horse to his "widowed father", which contradicts Hyde & Anderson, who state "With them went Cray Horse's mother and father, carrying the bones of their great son". (p. 287). As it was a contradition and non-essential, I've removed it, but if it is correct feel free to replace. :) At any rate, this is beyond me without a lot more time to study the topic, so I was hoping someone with a better understanding could confirm these either way. - Bilby (talk) 15:46, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * For what it is worth, there is a limited preview of the Hardorff book over at Google books. CosmicPenguin (Talk) 17:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I am uncertain who added the section about Touch the Clouds carrying Crazy Horse's body but it is not supported by the eye witness accounts. I have deleted it. If the individual who wrote it can provide a referenece, I would be happy to put it back again. Ephriam3 (Talk) 09:14, 30 November 2008

GA status
Ok, I may have been wrong to pass this article last time, but since someone has re-nominated it the article has been greatly improved in quality by the hard work of users like Ephriam and Bilby. That is very good. The leas was to short, that was the main issue why it should not have passed the nomination, am I right? Well, someone seems to have taken care of that. The article is well referenced now and it is illustrated with images that have no copyright issues if I'm not mistaking. Then the article is long, has had no real editing disputes over the last few weeks, and it is well referenced. The sources used in the article cover all the statements made in the article. As of now, I see no reason why it would not pass GAN. Maybe the article could be made a little bit longer - not sure though, but maybe with such a lenghty lead the article itself should be a little bit longer. What I want to know now is this: in its current form, will the article pass or not and if not then what should you guys do to make it fit? Great Gall (talk) 12:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not familiar with the subject, but I see a couple of issues,


 * when you are using a dash ("—"), dont leave any space before and after, (See WP:MOS). It will be good if a citation templates are used. (not strictly necessary)
 * Its ideal to have references at the end, for ex in sentence, "After Lone Horn died in 1875, the mantle of leadership fell to his son[1] – just as the Army was beginning its campaign against the non-treaty bands."
 * Should the sections 1, 2, 3 be under a Biography title?
 * I greatly appreciate the hard work of other users, but still few issues persist and pls have patience, a reviewer will check for these in detail -- Bluptr (talk) 13:17, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Bluptr, luckily the things you refer to are small changes. It would be easy to take care of those. I sincerely hope this one will pass - it came from nothing and has been built up to high quality in just two weeks or so. I greatly respect that! Especially user Ephriam has done his best here. Jouke  Bersma   Contributions  11:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes I do hope it passes GA review, I initially objected, because the review was not proper. I appreciate the efforts of editors, one more good article on Wikipedia! Hopefully a editor aware of the subject will review it soon. All the best. Bluptr (talk) 14:37, 5 December 2008 (UTC)