Talk:Town and gown

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 January 2020 and 30 April 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Samuel.Lin.PO.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 11:33, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Expanded chronology
I have greatly expanded this article to cover the chronology and reflect the issues - with the assistance of a Wikipedia user who provided some valuable information on Cambridge University and a wonderful illustration of academic garb (the "gown'). I invite users to improve it(edit, add, delete, etc.). soverman 21 Jun 2005 1517 (UTC)

Licensing laws
"(Some of these privileges still exist - for example colleges in the University can sell alcohol to their students under a special licence without having to follow normal UK alcohol licensing laws.)"

The new licensing laws remove this privilege - Oxford and Cambridge college bars must now obtain a license like any other pub.

Great article, trying to soften some POV at end
A beautifully written as well as informative article... Great coverage of a lot of issues. There are some "POV" questions. The "so-called G.I. Bill of Rights"; while it is now an opt-in program, it was one of the first pieces of legislation to cement specific promises to veterans into law. Many veterans would argue very strenuously that they did view it as a literal "bill of rights" -- veteran or not, at that time very few Americans attended college unless they were of the upper classes. Arguably there's a lot of tension between veterans and the traditional culture of academe - James Webb, former Secretary of the Navy, has spoken about experiences in law school, while on the GI Bill. I think the comment was meant to reflect the "slang" name of "GI Bill" and changed it thus. (grin) On a connected note, anyone who is curious about that period should check out the movie "The Best Years of Our Lives". It's about veteran readjustment in post WWII America; "An Apartment for Peggy" is another movie from the period, about the immense housing crunch as married ex-GIs attended school in droves. This is the real reason for Levittown and the growth of suburbs.

Added comment about the growth of "knowledge communities" ... Boston, Ann Arbor, Madison, Austin are all examples of college towns that have influenced the growth of high tech, dotcom, and other "knowledge intensive" communities. The influx of workers may make these areas extremely expensive (another great topic for Wikipedia) compared to neighboring communities.

The previous edit referred to the "best scenarios"... well, "best" would be subjective. Same with "(the Kent State and Jackson State killings are grim reminders of intervention turning into tragedy)." Yes, I agree that they are grim, but it could be argued that they are a grim reminder of students run amuck, or a grim reminder for the need for gun control, or a grim reminder of the ... fill in the viewpoint there. That is not to say I don't agree with a lot of what's stated in this essay, but that it still needs to be objective - describing the different point of views, but not taking a stand one way or the other.

Now, the end of the article, while ...again, it's beautifully written and very positive, is also very POV... "The division betwen town and gown is rapidly fading." That's an opinion - a well researched and written one, but still an opinion.

I respect all the time and effort into making this a great article; I tried to make some changes to help it fit in better with Wikipedia's stance on POV. Noirdame 08:38, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merger
Town and gown is older and has more info than University Town Politics, but they are the same topic and some sections read nearly identically. While the origins and some present-day issues are political, there are other issues, so the former seems like a better target unless there is enough "politics" material to put it all and only into the latter (with a summary sentence and "see..." in the main T&G page). While we're making sense of the page-names, would "Town-gown relations" be a good place to move the current main page? DMacks 01:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the current name Town and Gown should be kept (both the article and the name) because that is a phrase in itself--someone might hear such and such about "town and gown", and not know what it is, so they (haha, hopefully) look it up on wikipedia. The name should at least be kept somewhere, because it is a common phrase. Thrasymachus007 08:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the Town and Gown article should stay. I think that University Town Politics article should be merged into this one. Much of the text, as Thrasymachus007] says, is nearly exactly the same, and the quality of this article is much better than [[University Town Politics. --chemica 22:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have added an additional examples section to Post-1960s: Changing climate, changing issues secntion. This addition is my suggestion for the merge of the two articles. --chemica 22:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the merge label and proposed University Town Politics for deletion. --chemica 01:57, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Just change this article's name to "Town & Gown: Yale & New Haven", because it just goes on and on about Yale University and blah blah blah...

Style
Although this article is very informative, it reads more like a book chapter than an encyclopedia article. Also, if someone could fix the citations, that would be helpful as well. --chemica 22:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It reads more like a college essay than snacks encyclopedia article. 2603:8001:3846:2D00:1C10:2CC6:7CD4:AD8A (talk) 06:37, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Univ. of Kentucky section
I fixed some horrible usage and spelling in this section, but I won't get into a possible NPOV war.

Perhaps the previous article writer has an axe to grind... I don't know. However, it is evident to me that:
 * Grammar, spelling, and usage were ill-advised in the section pertaining to the situation,
 * The term "slumlords" has a specific meaning that connotes that the lessors in the area were deliberately negligent (without facts or sources to promote this point), and
 * The dramatic use of phrases such as "This concept had one huge flaw" and "push out the low-income students" edges the entire section towards the viewpoint of a disgruntled student subject to fines for public nuisance violations.

Regardless of whether writer has a point, this place is more than just a gripe board; it's an encyclopedia.

Possible economic motivations for the "slumlords", I mean landlords, could be:
 * Cost prohibitive repairs to the neighborhood(s), a result of onerous city regulations, meant that the property would devalue with time, with no great remedy for the owners, since others in the area would be similarly dismotivated to repair;
 * The "party school" phenomenon isn't pervasive, but some students nevertheless mistreat the property they occupy during their college studies, causing extesive damage in some cases; and
 * Perhaps the lessors truly were cheap misers who desired nothing other than to squeeze every last penny out of those poor, poor students...

Assuming one of these three wasn't a wise move by the previous writer. I have tried my best to "be bold", but I won't get it right the first time through. Please help! 136.165.46.150 04:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

UC Berkeley tree sitters
They so need to have a section. 198.144.209.8 12:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * By all means write one. Make sure to explain how this is really town vs gown, since they're pretty entangled here (govt fighting public-university is kinda weird, and there are students on the "save ther trees" side). DMacks (talk) 17:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Europe
Last time I checked the British Isles was part of Europe so the sentence "first in Italy and then across the European continent and the British Isles" is incorrect. Unless someone can provide an reference which clearly states the somehow the the spread of universities across the British Isles was unique and different from the rest of Europe then I will change the sentence to "first in Italy and then across the rest of European". Bjmullan (talk) 21:38, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The present text is entirely acceptable, but to be a bit more pedantic we could say "European mainland and the British Isles". It's often a good idea to pull out British Isles from the overall Europe label, just to be clear that the islands are actaully included. Leaving it as just 'Europe' could possibly be ambiguous - is that all of Europe including islands, or just the mainland or what? Van Speijk (talk) 19:28, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The link with be to Europe so no possible ambiguity. You're not suggesting that everywhere that the term Europe in used in WP that we include BI just to be sure! As I have already states by separating BI from E it could lead the reader to somehow think that the spread in the BI was somehow different. If it is I'm sure that a reference to support the claim can be found otherwise it will be replaced. Bjmullan (talk) 19:38, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Well that sounds like a threat, and we don't do threats here. As for referencing, I don't see why we should have one for this piece information. There are much more important assertions in the article that are without a direct inline reference. Van Speijk (talk) 19:54, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are absolutely right we don't do threats. What we do do is verifiable and reliable sources which is one of WP core content policies (not a guideline or MOS). Someone has made a statement which suggests that the spread of universities in BI was somehow different from the rest of E and I'm asking for a reference to support that claim. Rather simple and a fundamental part of this project. Bjmullan (talk) 20:12, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * No, you're just trying to remove another case of British Isles, simple as that. And someone has not made the assertion you claim. They have simply clarified that the spread of universities was applicable to BI and continental Europe, and not just the continent; a useful clarification I would suggest. Van Speijk (talk) 20:29, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's get something straight Van Speijk; You are a SPA with the purpose on this project of having the term British Isles used whether or not it is relevant, therefore I think we can take your opinion with a pinch of salt. I have asked for a reference, this is an encyclopaedia after all, to support the claim and I will remove it if no reference is forthcoming, but no rush I will check sometime later. Bjmullan (talk) 21:38, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Just so you are clear; the general sanctions relating to the British Isles clearly states: Any editor who systematically adds or removes the term "British Isles" from multiple articles without clear sourcing and justification, or who edit-wars over such addition or removal, may be added to the list of topic-banned editors. This fact tag has been here since February and no reference has been forthcoming therefore the claim has been removed. Bjmullan (talk) 23:59, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
 * That would be you then. Placing fact tags against instances of "British Isles" just so that you can come back later to remove that instance is a clear breach of the sanctions. I won't revert this one because it's of no consequence but I'm watching your activities vey carefully. I note you've stacked up a few other articles in this way. I strongly recommend that you abandon this tactic. Van Speijk (talk) 19:40, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think Van Speijk what you need to focus on is without clear sourcing and justification. Happy Easter. Bjmullan (talk) 22:15, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Globalize
The section on post-1960s history deals primarily with the US. Campus police services, or fraternities, are primarily an American issue--in other countries, such as the UK, no-one knows what fraternities are (apart from things which exist in American films), and the idea that a university could run its own police force would be dismissed as an absurd idea. --RFBailey (talk) 16:01, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Urban slum universities
One aspect that is missing from this article is the "town" which may have been nice when the university was founded but is now impoverished or even dangerous. NYU in New York and USC in Los Angeles are examples that come to mind. I've just been editing about the University of Cincinnati, in a similar situation. It ties in with campus policing. I expect it's a global phenomenon and something scholars have written about, since it's just outside their walls. The main campuses can be so large that some portion abuts a slum even while others are nicer. Also, universities sometimes intentionally open satellite campuses and extensions in poor areas for outreach. If anyone has time and interest, it'd be nice to add a paragraph about it, if that's justified. 2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:8DC4:BB80:568F:2021 (talk) 10:08, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

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Reference Paper/Essay 1960s section
Judging from the section title and its contents, this seems to be a paper. It has good information in it, but it sort of "takes the reader on a journey" rather than being in true encyclopedic style. Sorry if this is misguided or poorly articulated - it's my first tag. Qxu21 (talk) 08:52, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Nothing wrong with your tagging, it does seem like a self-contained essay rather than a section of encyclopedia article on a larger topic. It's pretty verbose and redundant in parts too. DMacks (talk) 11:51, 1 July 2019 (UTC)