Talk:Toxteth

Postcode
Your definition of Toxteth as Liverpool L8 is incorrect. You imply this by including Sefton Park ( L17) as being in Toxteth. The boundaries of Toxteth are not Ullet Rd to the south but much further along at Jericho Lane where Jeremiah Horrocks was born in the Lower Lodge.

Equally, those parts of L8 in the "Canning area" are NOT in Toxteth. This is clearly seen as they are north of the old Parliamentary boundary ( Parliament St/Upper Parliament St) between Liverpool and Toxteth, more correctly Toxteth Park. 213.122.164.105 (talk)


 * I deleted "Toxteth famously has the postcode L8." as it is not true in anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.253.72.212 (talk) 09:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Notable residents
(moved from User talk:Icairns)

I was wondering whether you could explain why you removed my entry about "drug dealers" in the "Famous people" section of this article. I admit that it was flippant and referred to drugs, but some of the other entries in that section were written in a similar vein and haven't been removed. And also, while "drug dealers" might not count as famous people, neither does "Toxteth O'Grady" in the same section.

I've read some of Wikipedia's rules concerning vandalism, specifically "silly vandalism" (which this seems to come close to). However, I do think there may be some inconsistencies in the implementation of those guidelines in this article. Finally, is it normal to remove text without having a discussion or at least explanation of why it's being removed? Cheers. --MackORell 07:09, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You are right - I thought the 'drug dealers' as 'famous people' text was vandalism at worst or ironic propaganda at best - see WP:NOT. As you saw, I was busy fixing links; this was an aside, and a no-brainer at that. Ian Cairns 07:38, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your reply and the link. I've had a chance to read through more of the Wikipedia guidlines and policies, but I still don't see the difference between my entry and other entries in that section in terms of propaganda and vandalism. In fact, the entry regarding the demolition of houses to make way for "abodes for well-off middle class people" is a clear case of propaganda and silly vandalism, yet it's still in the article. I see no reason why my entry was removed and others weren't. Therefore I don't see any reason for not re-entering my original comments into the article if other comments are to stay. Thanks, --MackORell 00:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


 * In that case, I think it needs a tag. The idea here is continual improvement of this (and any other) article - not add more problems just because their were problems with the article. Ian Cairns 02:59, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. I'd also suggest to anybody who wrote any "humorous" content in the article that we could move it to the Wikipedia bad jokes page. As the article stands, it will only encourage people to keep adding similar kinds of comments to it. I personally don't mind that as I think some of them are quite funny, but I realize that they go against what Wikipedia is about. Not only that but it gives extra work to people such as yourself, work which I imagine you could probably do without. Thanks.--MackORell 04:32, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I thought Wayne Rooney was from Croxteth & robbie fowler was from Toxteth. Louise2212 (talk)


 * I've pulled both the photos, and trimmed the list of people; the photos do not directly add to the article, and the list of people - apart from failing the neutrality test - included people just passing through (literally, in the case of John Paul II). Mtpt 16:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Why is the Everton footballer Anichbei included???? As far as I know he was born in Nigeria (So not from Toxteth anyway) and grew up in Crosby (Which is not even in Liverpool never mind Toxteth!!!) Sounds to me like someone is just including him for no other reason than he happens to be black! Maybe someone should realise the vast majority of the population of Toxteth is white.

Next Sissoko, Babel and Yobo will be included!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.29.202 (talk) 02:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Anichebe did grow up in Toxteth before moving to Crosby. He mentions this on the Evertonian magazine on an interview. He's included because he did grow up there in his early youth and not because of the color of his skin. I put it on Wikipedia because I am an Evertonian living in Toxteth. 62.30.215.136 (talk)

Ghetto?
Would you say Toxteth is a Ghetto, and if so, why? Feddy (talk)

Helicopter
Loved the photo of the helicopter, it really sums up the Toxteth I knew and loved. --Salix alba (talk) 15:54, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Jewish community
The following was reciently deleted. Whilst flawed I think there was some material worth including, especially the presence of the synagogue so I pasting the deleted material here.


 * Was once a great area in Liverpool with houses bigger than average, yet still has low house prices. In the 1960's, it was considered the best area of Liverpool, but has gotten progressively worse over the years. Houses are grand and have many 'mansion' like qualities. Houses should be worth a lot more, however, crime prevents this from happenening.
 * Was home to a large Jewish community, but many left to London and other metropolitan business cities, however there is still a synagogue there which is still used by Jewish people.
 * When the Jewish people left, the houses were a high price, a lot higher than the national average, but a rise in crime made these houses cheaper and made them availabale for people of a lesser money income, mainly ethnics, who have now settled there and are living there peacefully.
 * One of the reasons of the sizes of the houses is actually because of the large numbers of people in a Jewish family, often 8-10 in a family, a lot higher than the national average.
 * The majority of remaining Jewish families left to Childwall.
 * Today, property developers are highly interested in the area because of the quality and size of the houses, which with a bit of refurbishment could be worth a lot more once again.

--Salix alba (talk) 14:53, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't speak for the other person who removed it, but frankly, combined with the lack of sources for the contents, the language is pretty questionable! If some of the facts can be supported, it should be rewritten and posted with citations. As for the reference to the synagogue, perhaps this could be fleshed out and added back in?Mtpt 16:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Might I add a point? As one who was raised in Toxteth from birth to the age of 24, I lived through the entire period of the post-war regeneration and eventually witnessed the first riots up close, although by then we had moved. It is incorrect to state "In the 1960's, it was considered the best area of Liverpool,".  By the '60s, Toxteth was already in steep decline, with high levels of anti-social behaviour, crime, and social disadvantage.  Social service records of Liverpool City Council will confirm this, as will the Liverpool Echo archives maintained on microfiche in the Liverpool Central Library, on William Brown Street. (CarneadesLocal) 26.7.09

There was also a Jewish community in the Greenbank area where the majority of houses are 3 or 4 bedroom so his/her statement makes no sense. Many "ethnics" "Peacefully" live there and it hasnt effected the house prices (If anything they have gone up) The statement further makes no sense due to the fact that the Jewish community were certainly not large enough to account for the size or numbers of houses in the area. The comments are almost as idiotic as claiming everyone who lives in Childwall is Jewish!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.29.202 (talk) 02:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Ali Mohammed Mahmoud
The article refers to him as the first local councillor of Somali origin, but no source is given for this. It's also not clear whether this means the first such councillor in Liverpool, or in the UK. Can anyone add a citation/clear this up? Mtpt 16:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It's purely academic now since he lost his seat to a Labour Candidate in 2006. 213.121.151.174 (talk) 15:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Latest deletions
Fraid to say I don't like the latest deletion. This used to be a page of character which reflected the character of the place I knew from ten years ago. It is now as dull as dich water. The Toxky bird summed up the place so well, and resonated with anyone who has lived their. The riots were a defining character of the district setting the tone of the place and prompted much of there regeneration. Maybe it has changed in the last ten years since I lived their, but Toxteth is a place of joyrides being chased by police helicopters, the no go area of Gramby street, continuing tension between police and afro carabean youth. --Salix alba (talk) 16:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC) (one time resident)

Nice to see you have lived there for so many years but dont know that the majority of the black population of Toxteth are not Afro Caribian but African or mixed race. Maybe if you spent those years in Toxteth in a more constructive manner you would know this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.29.202 (talk) 02:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Salix, the point about the photographs is that either could have been taken anywhere - there was nothing in them that added to a non-resident reader's understanding of Toxteth. "Tokky birds" is a straight forward in-joke, which is likely to be pretty well incomprehensible to anyone outside of the UK (if not Merseyside). As for the riots, the content about them in this article simply repeated the content in the seperate article on the the riots. (We're rapidly going to get into "What Wikipedia is not" territory.) If you think there is something which should appear in this article - say the post-riot regeneration or ongoing tension - why not just add it in? Mtpt 17:07, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Gambier Terrace
I live on Gambier Terrace and can I point out that it is NOT in Toxteth, it is still considered to be in Liverpool city center because the postal code for Gambier Terrace is L1 and not L8. It is still in the Georgian quarter though if that was the confusion. Ribcaged (talk)


 * I live on Percy Street (parallel to Hope Street and, therefore, Gambier Terrace) I agree that it should not be included, except for a See also Toxteth definately starts on the other side of Upper Parliament Street. David Humphreys SPEAK TO MEABOUTTHE THINGS I MESSED UP 02:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the reference to John Lennon and Gambier Terrace. Liverpool yes, Toxteth no. http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Gambier+Terrace,+Liverpool  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.214.14 (talk) 20:00, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Text interefered with
It would seem that this article has been damaged by nonsensical material being added.

eg However, Rob is mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086, and at this time, it appears that he was good mate of History.

Toxteth was divided into two manors of equal size. One was owned by Rob and the other by various mates. After the fight part was granted by Count Roger of Poitou to the ancestor of the Earl of Sefton(Rob). From this fight to about 1604 the land formed part of West Derby forest.

Over the years various fights and brawls were lost and the park was shipped off to Weymouth by Adam, son of William de Liverpool (also a good mate of Rob's) in 1338.

The ancient township of Toxteth, contains the ancient village of Smeedon or Smithdown. It stretches over an area of seven-hundred miles along the River Mersey and two thousand miles inland,

--Machaethlon (talk) 07:03, 20 March 2009

Regeneration
The Regeneration section is dominated by the issue of Ringo Starr's birthplace, which I'm sure is very important to his fans but is only a small component of the wider questions around regeneration. The section also reads like a leaflet produced by a Save-Ringo's-Street campaign rather than an NPOV encyclopedia. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:24, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Toxteth Boundary
It appears many think Toxteth is just postal district Liverpool 8. Toxteth is roughly the block from Parliament St to Aigburth Vale, from the River Mersey to Smithdown Road. The borders of the ancient park of Toxteth are still its borders and have these borders have never been changed. The Boundary pub on the corner of Smithdown Rd and Lodge Lane tell you that was the boundary at that point. A part of Penny Lane is in Toxteth. Sefton, Princes and Greenbank Parks are all in Toxteth. Toxteth has these postal codes within its borders: L8, L3 (the docks in Toxteth are L3), L7, L17, L18, L15. L8 is the only postal code 100% inside Toxteth. Dingle is 100% inside Toxteth as is St. Michaels & Lark Lane.

If people only want L8 and not Toxteth, then an L8 wiki needs creating. There is one for Dingle which 100% inside Toxteth. A Toxteth wiki is for all of Toxteth. 79.66.31.133 (talk) 09:27, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Please note Toxteth is different from Toxteth Park. Toxteth Park is confusing someone here. Toxteth Park is an old settlement and is much larger than the present district. This is very similar to other places like West Derby for example, which were much larger than they presently are. That said, there is reference to this already on the Toxteth page.

What needs to be pointed out is that the present Toxteth is NOT Toxteth Park. Do not confuse the two. Dingle is NOT a sub district of Toxteth etc. An editor appears to be confusing the ancient Toxteth with today, in the city of Liverpool, with which Toxteth is much smaller. The above user would be best creating a page from the ancient settlement of Toxteth Park for which he/she can cement all the locations within it, however it is entirely incorrect to refer to almost the entire south end as 'Toxteth this' and 'Toxteth that'. The user may be passionate about Toxteth and I admire that, but please bear in mind that the ancient Toxteth is not the present Toxteth Babydoll9799 (talk) 16:05, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

If the present Toxteth is "NOT" the same as Toxteth Park then when in time do you think the boundaries "present" Toxteth were defined. The argument about Toxteth and Toxteth Park is of course specious. Tocky Tech ( ie Toxteth Technical Institute)is of course outside your definition being in Aigburth Rd. So was of course the Toxteth Conservative Club on Aigburth Rd. Both these places were in existence within the last 30 years. There other examples I could quote like Toxteth Fire Station sited off Lark Lane etc etc.

This article really says as much about errors of Wikipedia as a valid source of information as it does about its own accuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taffy wales (talk • contribs) 22:43, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * For the purposes of Wikipedia Toxteth is defined by Liverpool City Councils or HMG so finding the signs om major roads is one way. That the borders have changes over time is no surprise and it means that some places are no longer in the area but are named after it. Some places have never been in the area but keep the name. This is common for instance West Derby Cemetery is in Fazakerley. What you comment shows is that you have some idea of where Toxteth is and what defines it but have produced no documentation that shows that you delimiters are valid, lots of people have lots of ideas as to what defined something but often when pushed they cannot say why, are you different. It would be useful to have a map from the council but I cannot find one, do you know where one is?--Kitchen Knife (talk) 23:13, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Toxteth's borders have not changed.79.66.116.52 (talk) 22:35, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Unconstructive editing
Theres been a lot of unconstructive editing by the user from the IP address 79.66.116.52. It's down to editors trying to merge Dingle and other parts of south Liverpool in to Toxteth. I am well aware this may be because of the ancient place of Toxteth Park, which covered a larger area. I'm no historian and i'm not going to try give a history lesson but Toxteth Park is ancient and not part of Liverpool today, there are other places around the city, notably West Derby, that were much larger than they are today. I'm not from Dingle but I think anyone interested from Dingle should keep an eye on this. Babydoll9799 (talk) 19:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I would call it constructive editing. First you have define where Toxteth is. It is the boundaries set by by Griffith's book79.66.116.52 (talk) 18:54, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * They had some involvement with the Sefton Park article for the same purpose. At first I treated their addition with a citation-required tag, but having seen the activity here, I've reverted that article too. Worth keeping an eye on that one too in case they come back with a reference. – Kieran T  (' talk ') 19:51, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Glad to see someone taking my concern seriously. Just one other note for the page, the Toxteth notable people page seems intertwined with Dingle people, it needs someone with local knowledge to sort that one outBabydoll9799 (talk) 19:53, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Dingle is in Toxteth, so one and the same. 79.66.116.52 (talk) 18:45, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank for the well intentioned but inaccurate history lesson. Perception and fact are two separate things. Toxteth Park is ancient and is still a part of Liverpool today. There are still signs around denoting the boundaries. Someone on here a while back stated it was only L8, which is nonsense, The docks in the south-end are L3. The borders of Toxteth are still the borders of the ancient Toxteth Park, not a postcode or where some people think it is. The book, by Grifiths, History of Toxteth Park, clearly states the border.  Dingle is a sub district. It is only at the bottom of Park Rd/Aigburth Rd and down to the river, where the "Dingle" was. What does this mean? ..."Worth keeping an eye on that one too in case they come back with a reference". To me that is you will dismiss a reference. Once again. The borders ARE TOXTETH PARK.  Until someone comes up with something concrete to disprove that, the borders are Toxteth Park.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.116.52 (talk) 16:55, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, on Croxteth Drive there's a sign welcoming people to Toxteth -- AFTER (as heading into town) the entrance to the park. 81.178.67.229 (talk) 17:35, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The boundaries as per Griffith's book. Some on herer think Canning, on the north side of Upper Parliament St is in Toxteth. It is not as the road is the boundary. It gets a bit silly. The boundaries are as per Griffith's book.79.66.116.52 (talk) 18:50, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hello, good to get this onto the talk page. :-) I have a concern about using Griffiths as the one reference here — it was published in 1907! Considering that we are talking about wards and boundaries that have evolved a lot over time (not just because we're comparing the historic park with modern de facto reality, but also because of new housing developments and the like), I think that's too far back. Not to mention that it's a private history, not any reference to the City Council (which didn't exist in its current form when he was writing) and its planning department and electoral ward boundaries (nor even Community Council / Parish Council / Parish boundaries). So it's great that we've a start in references, but it's not what I'd call a reliable source for this particular level of administrative data 103 years later. – Kieran T  (' talk ') 20:27, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Griffiths book is printed even today - it is for sale. It is the only book that maps out Toxteth. New housing estates wards ect, make no difference to the boundaries of Toxteth, as they come and go. I have seen the area change radically over my life, and it is still changing.  The boundaries have not moved. It appears to have moved inside many people's heads though. One here was saying Dingle is not in Toxteth, which is laughable. BTW, I was born and brought up in the place. Until someone proves otherwise, the Griffith book is the reference.  That is simple.  If you say Toxteth has moved to Birkenhead then prove it. If proven it is in Birkenhead.  Otherwise Griffith is the ref and the boundaries in the book stay. Toxteth's boundaries have been fixed fro many, many centuries and no new housing estates will affect that. Paul Christian who ran the now defunct Toxteth.net mapped it out and came to the same conclusion as Griffith. He had a wonderful map on the site showing the whole boundary in minute detail, like running through the back room of the Royal pub in Smithdown Rd.  The Boundary pub at Lodge Lane/Smithdown Rd was well...the boundary. The Book House is just in Toxteth and was at the brook which ran right through forming the lake at Sefton Pk.  Some tell tale give-aways. 79.66.116.52 (talk) 22:31, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

(resetting indent) Just because a book is still for sale is meaningless — Mein Kampf is still for sale. The boundaries of Toxteth, you say, but we still don't know what you mean by that: the article got very confusing with mentions of precise things like wards, imprecise things like districts, and then "Toxteth" with no explanation of what that is in this context and how it relates to city, ward, parish, etc. Really, if we can pin it down to an entity with meaning, rather than a colloquial term for a neighbourhood, that'll be an excellent advance. And regarding the brook... that was re-routed for the park (say the notices regarding recent renovations), so is of little use as a boundary. – Kieran T  (' talk ') 23:56, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * As it can be seen with recent edits, an editor is persisting with this suggestion that Toxteth is L3&L7. In particular Bedford Street. I dont believe these streets to be part of Toxteth or Edge Hill but some are L7 some are L8 they form part of the city centre. Even so if Bedford Street is L7 it is reasonable to suggest it is NOT Toxteth. Blimey. What does it take to stop these people behaving like this? As for suggesting Toxteth is L3, that is disputed. Dingle is the area by the waterfront. Babydoll9799 (talk) 22:53, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You clearly have not a clue. I do not give a hoot about your opinion. I only go on fact. The boundaries of Toxteth are Toxteth Park  FULL STOP!!! Parts of L3 are in Toxteth that is how ignorant you are of the district. I was born and brought up there and know the place backwards. But, I only go on fact.  I will reverse the stupidity I have read here. Liverpool-8-boy (talk) 23:26, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I've now protected this page for a week so that hopefully you can develop consensus without edit-warring on the article. Ged UK  14:40, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No need for consensus. The boundaries are Toxteth Park unless the ignorant ones here can prove otherwise. It is called FACT!!!!  That is what we go on.Liverpool-8-boy (talk) 23:26, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not getting involved anymore. Leave it to othersBabydoll9799 (talk) 14:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Very wiseLiverpool-8-boy (talk) 23:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Unconstructive editing (part two)
Seems there has been changes to Toxteth to again have Toxteth turned in to some mini town in the south end obliterating the modern city of Liverpool. As above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Babydoll9799 (talk • contribs) 19:14, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * TOXTETH PARK update. In view of previous discussion i have started a Toxteth Park page. This should have been done a long time ago. This is not a "district" this is for the ancient Toxteth Park settlement. Feel free to update all Toxteth Park related text. My opinion is that Toxteth Park related stuff should be reduced on the Toxteth page. If possible. Babydoll9799 (talk) 12:50, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Unrest and Crime
Apart from Toxteth riots, is reference to a car incident fatality necessary? It isnt notorious or a unique incident. It's a little ott in my opinion that it is includedBabydoll9799 (talk) 08:31, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
 * This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
 * There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
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Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:45, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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I Missormiznotmissus (talk) 09:07, 27 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Im surprised this article doesn't mention that Toxteth is home to the UK's oldest black community, 300 or 400 years old, descendants of African kings and wealthy merchants who sent their children to England for their education and descendants of African seamen who settled in Liverpool over the centuries. I can't remember the book where I first stumbled across this fact but I've since read some of Dr Ray Costello's work which also mentions African Americans who fought in the US Civil War and settled in Liverpool.  My family arrived in Liverpool from Ireland only 130 years ago. Missormiznotmissus (talk) 09:27, 27 August 2023 (UTC)