Talk:Toyota Gazoo Racing WRT

Tommi Mäkinen Racing
This article should be moved to Tommi Mäkinen Racing. The team is not the only team to compete under the name "Toyota GAZOO Racing"&mdash;Toyota Motorsport GmbH races in the World Endurance Championship under the same name. The article Toyota Gazoo Racing is a disambiguation page offering links to this article and the Toyota Motorsport GmbH article. Therefore, we should treat Toyota GAZOO Racing as an identity adopted by Tommi Mäkinen Racing. After all, they build, operate and maintain the cars themselves.

This is not an uncommon practice in rallying articles. For example, M-Sport have been known under several names, including "Ford World Rally Team", "Qatar World Rally Team" and "Stobart M-Sport World Rally Team". These individual identities do not have their own articles&mdash;everything comes back to M-Sport, who built, operated and maintained the cars for each iteration of the team.

There are a few contextual issues that support this change. Firstly, Tommi Mäkinen Racing developed the Yaris WRC quite separately from Toyota. It was originally built by Toyota Motorsport GmbH, but Mäkinen built his own and convinced Toyota to award him the tender. Secondly, Tommi Mäkinen Racing does not simply operate the Yaris WRC. They run some Fiesta R5s in the WRC-2 for Toyota development drivers just as M-Sport run R5s quite separately from their (current) identity as "M-Sport Ford World Rally Team". Finally, rule changes introduced in 2017 mean that only manufacturers can enter current-generation WRC cars, even if they compete under a different name&mdash;as was the case with OneBet Jipocar World Rally Team and FWRL.

The only thing that would need to be changed with such a move is the article lead, which currently reads like this:
 * ''"Toyota Gazoo Racing WRC is a World Rally Championship (WRC) team based in Finland that serves as Toyota's official factory team. It is operated by four time World Drivers' Champion Tommi Mäkinen and his team, Tommi Mäkinen Racing."

Something like this would be required:
 * ''"Tommi Mäkinen Racing is a World Rally Championship (WRC) team based in Finland that serves as Toyota's official factory team and operates under the name Toyota GAZOO Racing WRT. It is operated by four time World Drivers' Champion Tommi Mäkinen."

That's just straight off the top of my head. But the point is that by treating "Toyota GAZOO Racing WRT" as an identity assumed by the team we can broaden the focus of the article and keep it consistent with the way other Toyota GAZOO Racing articles are written. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 04:23, 28 December 2017 (UTC)


 * So, @, would you consider this an acceptable alternative? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 04:23, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * You have a point to move to "Tommi Mäkinen Racing", but I think that we should add it here first, to hear other comments. And I absolutely disagree with the use of the "GAZOO" naming, as said User:The359, we should refer to the Method of Style for Capitalization of words in Roman script on Japan-related articles. We can't just ignore it. Corvus tristis (talk) 04:53, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * @ &mdash; I've always taken the MOS to be a guideline rather than policy. It's always written in such a way that we can use our discretion if need be, unlike policies which we cannot deviate from. I think there are a few mitigating factors here that would justify the use of "GAZOO". Firstly, this is the racing division of a major car manufacturer. GAZOO competes in multiple championships and incorporates multiple teams. I think that's a far cry from a one-off privateer entrant using the name. Secondly, it's an established practice in some Japanese motorsports articles, such as 2017 Super GT Series, 2017 F4 Japanese Championship, 2017 All-Japan Formula Three Championship and 2017 Super Formula Championship. Finally, it seems a little inconsistent. For 2018, Hyundai nominated "Hyundai Shell Mobis WRT" as their name. Why are we able to recognise that name, but we cannot recognise "Toyota GAZOO Racing WRT" as Toyota's name when they nominated it?


 * All of this is moot point right noe. If we move the article to Tommi Mäkinen Racing, it might change the way we look at it. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:00, 28 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Are they not different things, Toyota Gazoo Racing WRT and Tommi Mäkinen Racing? I think they should be seperate articles. The first one made specially for WRC rallying at the highest level. T.G.R.homepage lists Tommi Mäkinen as Team Principal, Koei Saga as Team Vice-Principal and Akio Toyoda as Team Chairman, while Tommy Mäkinen Racing board consists of Tommi Mäkinen, Nils Erik Hagman and Arto Juhani Tiitinen. As per the WP:COMMONNAME, this article should stay this way. Under the name of Tommi Mäkinen Racing, there were two drivers at 2017 FIA World Rally Championship-2. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 22:01, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * No, they are not different things&mdash;Tommi Mäkinen Racing competes as Toyota GAZOO Racing WRT. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 22:07, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Any reference? And what about WP:COMMONNAME? --Pelmeen10 (talk) 23:10, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * This one (source #4 in the article) makes it clear TMR is the team. "Toyota GAZOO Racing" is an identity adopted by the team.


 * As for COMMONNAME, it's easy to fall into the habit of recentism. For example, Hyundai was known as "Hyundai Motorsport" in 2017, but will be "Hyundai Shell Mobis World Rally Team" in 2018. Nevertheless, the article stays at Hyundai Motorsport, but the article will recognise "Hyundai Shell Mobis World Rally Team" as an identity used by the team in the same way that the M-Sport article recognises the various identities the team has used. This practice is not exclusive to rallying articles&mdash;for example, DJR Team Penske and Triple Eight Race Engineering both do it.


 * Perhaps this question is best-answered with a hypothethical: what would you propose to be the best solution if the name registered as the manufacturer entry was "Microsoft Toyota GAZOO Racing"? You cannot move this article to another target because you're treating them as separate teams. You cannot create a separate article because it would be so similar to this article that they would be subject to a merge, which defeats the point. The only thing you can do is to look at what the two have in common: the physical team. In that case, Tommi Mäkinen Racing is the team, and "Toyota GAZOO Racing WRT" and "Microsoft Toyota GAZOO Racing" are the separate identities used by the team. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 01:25, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Prisonermonkeys, the source states that "Four-times WRC champion Tommi Makinen will lead Toyota’s re-entry back to the top of international rally from 2017." "Makinen has been installed as team principal, Toyota’s racing arm, GAZOO Racing, has confirmed." "“And I am very happy and excited to have Tommi Mäkinen heading up our WRC team." We need a source which clearly says that Tommi Mäkinen Racing = Toyota Gazoo Racing. This source says only that Mäkinen was installed as team principal to the Toyota Gazoo Racing WRT, not that on the base of the Tommi Mäkinen Racing was created the Toyota Gazoo Racing WRT. P.S. There is no practice for the Japanese championships to use stylizations with caps. See also: 2017 F4 Japanese Championship entry list. It seems more like ignorance or inattention of some users of the Method of Style for Capitalization of words in Roman script on Japan-related articles and WP:MOSCAPS guidelines. Toyota isn't consistent with the use of caps in their press releases: here it is a TOYOTA GAZOO Racing. The same can be said for the entry lists of the Japanese Championships which are also a bit inconsistent and may use caps even for the name of the car which we never use. So we definitely should follow guidelines. Corvus tristis (talk) 11:16, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

I know there's something out there about TMR. I've just used up my Autosport articles for the month. Toyota Motorsport GmbH originally built the Yaris WRC, but for reasons that were never clearly explained, Toyota were not happy with it. They approached Mäkinen quite separately because they knew he was working with Toyotas and he converted a GT86 into all-wheel drive and turned it into a rally car. He took Akio Toyoda for a drive during Rally Finland and impressed him enough for TMR to be awarded the rights to building the Yaris WRC. They scrapped everything Toyota Motorsport had done and started over. All of this happened around 2014-2015. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 20:55, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * We still need exact reference for this. If it is an Autosport article then we need a date of the journal and a page at least. Corvus tristis (talk) 07:04, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Just to throw my two cents in since I've been name dropped here: Toyota's usage of Gazoo is the exact reasoning the MOS exists about Romanized Japanese words. Toyota's insistance on using GAZOO is explained in the MOS as a common style but not something that applies to Wikipedia. And yes, the various other articles about other Japanese teams and motorsports do incorrectly fail to follow this MOS, but these are not articles about World Championships therefore they are not as likely to be as well viewed. However, be aware that some of those capitalized words are in fact acronyms and are capitalized properly (NISMO, SARD, TOM'S...)

I'm not sure what Hyundai's name change has to do with Gazoo however, as Hyundai has simply changed their name based on sponsorship. Gazoo is a completely different issue not related to sponsorship at all.

As for Tommi Makkinen Racing and Toyota Gazoo Racing WRT, Tommi Makkinen leading both squads does not make them the same team. Hugh de Chaunac leads Toyota Gazoo Racing in the WEC, and still owns and operates Oreca, but Oreca does not run Toyota Gazoo Racing, TMG does. The359 ( Talk ) 07:51, 31 December 2017 (UTC)


 * The name Toyota Gazoo Racing is explained in this article: https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/motorsport/toyota-gazoo-racing-what-heck-gazoo-anyway. States Toyota Gazoo Racing is the name of the worldwide motorsport and racing division, of which Toyota Gazoo Racing WRT would seem to be a sub-division which competes in the WRC. John a s (talk) 18:07, 13 December 2018 (UTC)