Talk:Trúc Bạch Lake

Han tu
Even though the toponym is of Sino-Vietnamese origin, ouldn't the Han tu 湖竹白 be in the wrong order (as the adjective "white" comes after the word "bamboo")? If written in classical Chinese, as in old Vietnam, wouldn't it be 白竹湖? Badagnani (talk) 01:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Truc Bach is a proper name, so you can't change the order willy-nilly. In the Chinese ordering, it'd be Truc Bach ho instead of Ho Truc Bach. Judging by the etymology, I think the name of the lake is properly 竹帛, referring to bamboo and silk writing materials . DHN (talk) 03:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I guess the question would be, how was the name originall written by Vietnamese in Han tu and Chu nom in the actual sources from when these writing systems were regularly used? Also, I don't think in classical Chinese "Truc Bach Ho" would be written (Bamboo White Lake) because in Chinese usually the adjective comes before the noun. Badagnani (talk) 04:11, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * In fact, there is a Chinese term that is rendered "truc bach" in Vietnamese, it's 竹帛, and it doesn't mean "white bamboo". DHN (talk) 04:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, so then the etymology in the article should be fixed. I'm not sure how it was arrived at in the first place. My Internet searching shows 竹帛湖 is used in modern Chinese for this lake. Badagnani (talk) 04:17, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

What does "bamboo and silk writing materials" mean and how did this lake get such a name? Badagnani (talk) 04:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The silk connection is already mentioned in the article. I think the erroneous "竹白" is arrived at by folk etymology.  This is the reason I'm against putting Chinese characters in Vietnamese-language names without proper citation. DHN (talk) 04:20, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

So, how may we find the actual Han tu and Chu nom characters used by Vietnamese for such places in former times? Badagnani (talk) 04:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Dai Viet su ky toan thu is one online-accessible source. Other than that, there are various atlases published during the Le and Nguyen Dynasties that you can look up, but they're not readily available online. DHN (talk) 04:39, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

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