Talk:Trade Wars

Link to TradeWars 2002
I added the link to TW2002. There is significant info about several of the ships available now. &mdash; Nathanlarson32767 (Talk) 03:58, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What's the best way to tie the two pages together? 205.217.105.2 19:40, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Don't think it's necessary; 2002 was a game within the greater TradeWars series. They were all similar, but since 2002 was the most popular, having its own page seems fine. Deadsalmon 07:37, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree to tie the 2 pages together. TW2002 and TWGS are really the same game, and haveing 2 seperate articles with separate bits of information causes both articles to be incomplete 24.79.64.9 (talk) 13:55, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Cell Phones?
There's a cell phone variant?! Where!? Link it, and destroy my social life!!! -Ken (kenmyers2@sbcglobal.net)

Tradewars Tournement
Can someone add about the new Development with Sylien. They are partnering with EIS to graphically update Tradewars. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Xiahou (talk • contribs) 02:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC).
 * Basically they are working on a web based version of TW2002. Among other things they hope to fix some of the oddities of the game - Fighters will be renamed "Drone Fighters" and will in essence be a variation of smart missile (I was one of the people who was pushing for this to be fixed - though I have to admit that JP's solution was not what I expected). I haven't talked to JP for over 6 months, or been following what's happening on the Sylien web site due to family issues. I'd suggest someone else check this out. UrbanTerrorist 03:35, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Edit notes
I cleaned up the Traveller Link. While the american spelling is 'traveler,'this is a proper name who's correct spelling is the British version. Cmschroeder 21:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Brief mentions in the media...
Here's some sources that mention the game (nothing more substantial ATM):
 * The Video Game Explosion: A History from Pong to Playstation and Beyond‎ - Page 155
 * Connecting Kids and the Internet - Page 151
 * Second Lives: A Journey Through Virtual Worlds‎ - Page 29
 * Guild Leadership‎ - Page 175
 * Modems for Dummies‎ - Page 302
 * 网络英语‎ - Page 50
 * How Community and Deviance on LambdaMOO and Lord Graham's Demesne can prepare us for the future of...
 * Cyberkids in Metropolitan America

SharkD (talk) 15:42, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's some more that I'd forgotten about: SharkD (talk) 01:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Notability??
That's the stupidest notability question I've ever seen. Just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean it isn't notable. It's the most successful BBS game of all time and a predecessor of modern mmorpgs. It shouldn't be a separate article from TW2002, but notability? --Elmyr (talk) 23:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Dungeon Runners?
In sentence in the article, "What started as TW: DM was eventually released by NCsoft as 'Dungeon Runners'.[3]," the reference that it links says nothing about Dungeon Runners. Requesting a clarification. 70.145.190.183 (talk) 06:34, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Improving the article
I have added the Trade Wars article to the Strategy games task force in hope that an effort can be made to improve the article and properly place it within the videogame genres supported by Wikipedia.

I am a historian of Trade Wars, not just TradeWars 2002, of which I am a co-author and owner, but of all Trade Wars variants. I maintain a Trade Wars wiki where I compile any information I can find about any Trade Wars variants. I maintain the Trade Wars timeline from which much of the history of Trade Wars on this site and elsewhere has been drawn. However, as a co-author and owner of TradeWars 2002, I am always hesitant to edit this page, or especially the one specifically devoted to TradeWars 2002. Unfortunately, I have watched as the game has been mis-categorized and neglected in this wiki. I would be happy to provide any information I can to rectify that situation, but, for the reasons I stated, I do not feel that I can take it upon myself to do so.

Why is Trade Wars an important game?


 * Though Trade Wars was originally created for a very small gaming niche, the BBS, and the number of players exposed to the game is tiny by today's standards, it nonetheless has garnered an impressive number of games and developers citing it as an influence. I have added some of these to the article.  They include Paul Sage, lead designer of Ultima Online, Josh Johnston, lead programmer for Jumpgate, and Eric Wang, producer of Earth and Beyond, as well as, most recently, the Star Citizen design team.  I list these and other games influenced by Trade Wars on my wiki at my Influenced by TradeWars page.  In addition, Trade Wars is often used as a measuring stick for newer games in its genre, including EVE Online, Pardus and others (see my wiki page on games compared with TradeWars).  TradeWars 2002, the only Trade Wars game for which I have adequate data, enjoyed a level of activity rivaling other online games (mostly MUDs) at its prime (mid-90s).  The game has been hosted on well over 20,000 different sites in over 59 countries.  Again, this is all data I have compiled on my wiki (TW statistics page), drawn from registration and activation records over the years.  And finally, Trade Wars games have been around for almost 30 years (Tradewars by Chris Sherrick was released in 1984), and Trade Wars 2002 has been actively played, developed and supported for over 25 years (originally released in 1987 and still under development), making it a rival of Nethack, a game released in that same year (discontinued in 2003) and well known for its longevity.  Oh, and Trade Wars was an indie game before there were indie games (they called it Shareware), making it an important early pioneer of the indie game movement.

In which genre does Trade Wars belong?


 * Trade Wars has suffered from a phenomenon I call WikiCreep. It was originally established in a genre known simply as a Space Trader.  This genre was later combined with Space Combat games into the Space Trader and Combat genre.  This genre later became a sub-category of the Space Flight Simulator genre, itself a sub-category of Flight Simulators.  So, over time, because Trade Wars is such an old game and has lived through so much evolution in the categorization of videogames on Wikipedia, it went from being a pioneer in the Space Trader genre to being an odd-man-out in the Flight Simulator genre.  There is nothing about Trade Wars that should place it in a flight simulator genre.  The game employs a simple 6-direction movement system to hop from one space sector to another (based, in fact, on Hunt the Wumpus).  This is nothing like the "arcade-like" control schemes used by other games of the genre.  It is more similar to chess movement than a flight sim.


 * So in which genre does Trade Wars belong? That's actually not so easy to say.  From the beginning (1984) it has had empire building, trade, exploration and combat like a 4X game, though for whatever reason it has never been accepted as a 4X game (ok, I know the reason, but that's another rant).  Starting with Martech's version in 1987, it has had rpg elements, though these are clearly secondary to its primary identity.  It has a living economy that evolves according to the actions of players, making it an early business simulation game.  It has always been a non-linear, open, or sandbox game, making it one of the earliest examples of that game type, at least of the space trader variety.  As far as space traders go, it is an immediate descendant of the first known space trader, Star Trader from 1974, and even today it uses the same basic port haggling system of that game.  Unfortunately, "space trader" isn't even considered a genre anymore, since most games that utilize a space trade mechanic also provide space flight and combat simulation.


 * If you had to pick one genre to which Trade Wars belongs, it would be the pure Space Trader, because it is a direct descendant of Star Trader (itself mis-characterized as a flight simulator these days), the original Space Trader. Trade Wars has many other elements, but it is its Space Trader mechanic that has been its most influential feature.  There isn't a space trader around that isn't compared to Trade Wars from time to time. Therefore, what I would propose is that Space Trader be restored as its own distinct genre or sub-genre, either within the Strategy games category or perhaps Simulation (Business) games.  The core quality of a Space Trader is that it provides a system of interplanetary trade, however abstract or realistic.  For whatever reason, the impulse to create Space Traders, or "cargo haulers", as they are sometimes called, is as old as any game archetype, including the dungeon crawler, maze game, shooter, etc.  It deserves to be its own genre.  Games that employ elements of a Space Trader along with other, independent elements like Flight Simulator or Space Combat Simulator, are simply multi-genre games, no different from an RPG with RTS elements, or an FPS with RPG elements.

I'm sure there are exactly 3 people on the planet who care about this (including me), but I appeal to the members of the Strategy task force to recognize the relevance of Trade Wars and make it your priority to give it proper treatment. For the reasons I listed above, it deserves better than to be classified as a starter article of low importance in a sub-genre of a sub-genre of the wrong genre. I can be reached at jpritch at eisonline.com if I can be of any assistance in getting the Trade Wars article into proper shape.

Thanks, --JohnPritchett (talk) 22:32, 3 August 2013 (UTC)


 * John, thank you for stopping by to make your comments. First of all, I appreciate it very much when involved parties are aware and respectful of WP:COI. In the weeks ahead I will look at the article and make neutral changes. ~ Pesco  So say•we all 22:57, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Pesco. I will respect your edits.  --64.151.9.245 (talk) 03:07, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

This is not correct
"Though other space trading games appeared earlier, including "DECWAR" 1974 and "MegaWars" 1983"

DECWAR was a multi-user version of Star Trek with planets that turn into starbases. MegaWars was a version of DECWAR. Neither included trading, these statements are incorrect. The Decwar article is fully reffed and includes links to the instructions which demonstrate this. Maury Markowitz (talk) 20:27, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

I tracked this back and believe I have found the origin of this issue. It appears as a single statement in an earlier version of the TW2002 history that Pritchett put together and then subsequently expanded. In this earlier version, there is a passage that states:

"[1974] This date coincides with the debut of DECWars, an early online space opera (maybe the earliest?). I can't say that DECWars was influenced by Star Trader, or the other way around. I've never personally played DECWars, but I've been told by TW players that there were similarities to what became TW2002."

The passage starts by saying that DECwar (well actually WAR) was released in 1974, which may or may not be true - the DEC version is actually from 1978, I have not found a reliable reference for the release of WAR. WAR is a version of Star Trek (text game), so it had to be released some time after 1971, but almost certainly after 1974 when Bob Leedom's Super version became widely known.

The problem, it appears, is simply the wording of the second statement. John phrases it to suggest there is an either/or situation here, when there is clearly a third option that neither inspired the other. As his later versions state in no uncertain terms, the original author denies any such link existed. This is not surprising to anyone who's familiar with the two games, because they are utterly and completely different.

In any event, I have removed the passage. It simply confuses matters. People say wrong things about stuff all the time, and one of the great things about the wiki is that we can correct this misunderstandings. This is a perfect example.

Maury Markowitz (talk) 13:33, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Tradewars talk with Gary Martin in Break into Chat
Here is the transcript I thought it would add more to the article, but I don't know how to add it without getting reverted or deleted. Orion Blastar (talk) 01:58, 20 July 2019 (UTC)