Talk:Tragic hero/Archive 1

A Song of Ice and Fire
Was considering adding Eddard Stark to the examples, but I'd like to hear some other opinions first -- especially from those familiar with A Game of Thrones. Thanks. 71.83.52.74 21:13, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Macbeth
Re: the claim that Macbeth "does not fit Aristotle's requirements for suffering more than he deserves, nor was he noble in nature" - maybe I'm not an authority but I would say that Macbeth suffers more than he deserves. What about the "Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow" speech? I'd say he's suffering pretty badly. He goes mad in the end. Also, that he wasn't noble by virtue of birth? Maybe I'm wrong again, but wasn't he a Thane? Doesn't that equate to a Prince? I don't know... I just think that Macbeth DOES suffer more than he deserves and IS noble in nature. Isn't he described by the other Thanes as being such earlier in the play? I don't know. Someone else should do this whole... thing. - 61.9.204.168 12/10/2006, 3:08 pm

Aristotelian features
It comes to me that the Aristotelian features for a tragic here mentioned in this article are actually the sequences of ancient Greek tragedy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReadingGoal (talk • contribs) 17:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Gatsby
I found it interesting that the part about The Great Gatsby is incorrect. Daisy does not die in the story, nor does she leave Tom for Gatsby. Wilson shot Gatsby because he thought Gatsby ran over his wife (when in fact it was really Daisy who ran her over.

Hercules
There is no need to have Hercules in this article because he is not considered a tragic hero. Perhaps we can transfer that information elsewhere.

Anti hero
This page is far better then the "anti hero page". At least no one is stupid enough to remove the list of heros example.

I think Macbeth is considers as a anti hero, as he is much evil then any tragic hero is.

( although I am not sure can Tragic hero allow to be evil any way. I am going to check, in this reason don't espect this as my final comment)

OR example of modern tragic hero

 * A very recent claimed tragic hero is Anakin Skywalker of the Star Wars series. Like those before him, Anakin had a tragic flaw that led to his demise. There are two possible fatal flaws. The first might be Anakin's fear of loss. A supreme example of irony similar to Oedipus, his unwillingness to accept the premonition of his loss caused that very loss to happen. The second fatal flaw might be anger. Anakin destroyed everything he loved because he was too quick to rage. He became Darth Vader, serving the malevolent Emperor Palpatine, because he was angry that his mother could be tortured to death and his wife could die. He believed that the galaxy would be a better place if he gained more power and was free to impose his will on others. However, his blindness from anger allowed Obi-Wan Kenobi to dismember his legs and other arm. The volcano of Mustafar eventually burned him, leaving him horribly disfigured.


 * Despite this, he still had aspirations to control the galaxy, especially trying to convince his son Luke Skywalker to join him. He was only redeemed after he sacrificed his life to save his son.

Is there a source for the interpretation? --Mgreenbe 22:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I have to ask:

Why was Anakin Skywalker taken out of the modern tragic hero section? George Lucas intended him to be just that, in Lucas's interviews he compares Anakin to Macbeth, who conicidentally is in the tragic hero section

In response to Mgreenbe, it is not an interpretation, it is fact that Anakin Skywalker IS a tragic hero --FloydNbunch


 * I added Anakin back, but balance it with the idea that Anakin may instead by the eternal hero. --Lux 21:37, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Um, this isn't the Anakin page. Mention him if he fits the criteria (there seems to be some debate, perhaps there are better examples?) but he doesn't need 3 friggin paragraphs.  And this is from a huge Star Wars fan :)Oreo man 20:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Article needs cleanup
This article needs a lot of cleaning, as much of the information in it regarding Aristotle's 'tragic flaw' is incorrect. CaveatLectorTalk 19:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You're welcome to edit! I didn't realize how much the article has changed since I haven't paid attention to more than just correcting spelling and vandalism.--Lux 23:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * This article is in a bit better shape these days. I just took a run through it for wikilinks, formatting, lists, etc. Some sourcing really needs to be done. JubalHarshaw 00:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Precepts of Tragic hero
I moved this to the top because the tragic hero should be defined before introducing the tragic heroes themselves.--Lux 23:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

While you're at it, I'm confused by some of the wording here, namely in the fourth and fifth bullets:

He must have discovered his fate by his own actions, not by things happening to him.

I'm confused by the use of the word discovered. Do you mean to say:

His fate must be the result of his own actions, rather than outside events.

or do you mean:

He must have discovered his fate as a result of his own actions. ..

which concept would need still more clarification. He finds out he's doomed because he talks to an oracle, rather than because Hera whispers it to him, unasked?

Or do you mean (now that I've looked up the definition of anagnorisis, which I should have started with):

He must discover his flaw or mistake as a result of his own actions. ..

I'd just like to have that point clarified.

moved some things from articles
The mythical figure known as Herakles to the Greeks and Hercules to the Romans is an example of a hero possessed of enormous strength and a divine lineage, but possessed with the fatal flaw of uncontrollable anger. In a fit of rage induced by Hera, he kills his wife and children. To repent, he becomes the servant of King Eurysthenis and then must undertake twelve labors (extremely difficult feats) in a decade-long quest to redeem himself. His struggles made Hercules the embodiment of an idea the Greeks called pathos, the experience of virtuous struggle and suffering which would lead to fame and, in Hercules' case, immortality as a constellation in the heavens. Hercules is not considered a tragic hero because he did not suffer a cathartic fall.

Hamlet's fatal flaw, as seen by Aristotle, would be his failure to act immediately to kill Claudius. Unlike Oedipus, however, Hamlet is well aware of his fatal flaw from the outset. He constantly questions himself on why he continues to delay the fulfillment of his duty. In doing so, his continuous awareness and doubt (e.g. using the play-within-the-play to make sure the Ghost was telling the truth) incapacitates him from acting. Hamlet finally acts to kill Claudius only after realizing that he is poisoned. But by procrastinating, everyone whom he ridicules and targets also dies along the way, such as Laertes, Gertrude, Polonius, Ophelia, Rosencrantz, and Guildenstern.

Macbeth, however, presents a problem; whereas in Hamlet, we are made to feel some degree of empathy or sorrow for the hero because of the loss of his father and his mother's marriage to his uncle, Macbeth as the hero arouses little pity or feeling. His tragic flaw is that of being power-hungry, conniving, and utterly amoral when the opportunity suits him (note how in Act III, Scene I the third murderer is not present at Macbeth's briefing and yet in Act III, Scene III he is more informed than the other two murderers on what they are about to do). Macbeth does not possess two of the qualifying factors for a "traditional" tragic hero. He lacks goodness; he is also not superior, having been referred to by other thanes as a tyrant and an incompetent ruler during his kingship. At the beginning of the play however Macbeth is viewed as great, when he is being described as superior in battle by the Sergeant and when described by Duncan. Macbeth may be an early example of an Anti-hero. --Lux 23:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

edit
Shouldn't "[1]Classic Tragic Hero is also a folk/punk duo working out of Los Angeles. Their music has been featured in several films." be at the top, as a note, rather than at the bottom of Classic Tragic Hero? 208.98.205.234 23:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed the repeat section "Modern Tragic Heroes" cecilgol 23:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The passage talking about Anakin as a tragic hero is a repeat of what has been said in the 'modern tragic heroes' section.

I made a seperate article for the "Classic Tragic Hero"band and removed it from the article proper. It's a stub though. Redgrassbridge 22:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Four Characteristics?
"An Aristotelian tragic hero must have four characteristics: virtue of birth, nobleness, or wisdom; hamartia (translated as tragic flaw, but connotes more closely to mistakes or excess in behavior than to something innate, related to hubris), and a discovery that is made by his own actions."

Guh? This sentence makes no sense. It says that a person must have four characteristics, those being (either A, B, or C), D, and E. That's three things, not four, unless the intended meaning is that the character must have two of the qualities preceding the semicolon along with the other two. --Reveilled 00:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Since it's been nearly a month, I've edited the sentence to make sense. I'm not sure how accurate it is, though. --Reveilled 23:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi, I only caught this discussion just now. I have no bloody idea what that sentence is talking about either, but from what I understand, I should just delete some things, and wikify another. --Lux 19:09, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * "An Aristotelian tragic hero must have four characteristics: virtue of birth, nobleness or wisdom, hamartia (translated as tragic flaw, somewhat related to hubris, but denoting excess in behavior or mistakes), and a discovery that is made by his own actions." That's my revision.--Lux 19:12, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Would it not be a good idea to add a section dedicated to the Characteristics neccesary for the Modern Day Anti-Hero. Laid out in a neat list as the Aristolelian Hero?

Him
In the section that outlines the 'common traits' of a tragic hero, it says him every time for examples. I am a man so i'm not being annoying, but i noticed today because my history teacher, who is a woman, objected to the use of 'man hours' in a worksheet and annoyed me about people thinking everything is sexist. I'm just thinking you should change it before some feminists come after you.

Cleanup
The section on heroes had gotten out of hand, in my opinion. I felt that it read like a popularity contest of any tragic-like person. I may have gone a little overboard cleaning out the list, but its a start. I would recommend having the name, a reference to the book and author, and maybe a one-sentece description of how he/she is a tragic hero. Any other ideas?

--W. Flake ( talk | contribs ) 21:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I had to add Michael Corleone (one of my favorite tragic heroes), and alphabetize, but other than that, I think the examples section is almost perfect. I also took a run through for wikilinks, formatting, and lists (much nicer looking than the code boxes, which are useful in their way, at times) ... this article really needs sources, so I added a sources tag. I will try to source it, but I'm really busy wikifying ... large backlog. JubalHarshaw 00:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup (December 2006)
It's been a short while since I last cleaned up the list of tragic heroes, and it's beginning to look ratty again. What I think we need is a detailed "pseudo-policy" dealing with how characters are added. I realize that this does go against the spirit of WP:BOLD, but I feel that it is important to maintain a high quality and useful list of Tragic Heroes. To accomplish this end I have two questions: I would appreciate any discussion before I take an axe to the list again. &mdash; W. Flake (  talk  |  contribs  ) 03:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Should we even attempt to make a standard for what makes the cut?
 * 2) If so, what should be the requirements?

Anti-hero or Tragic Hero
Some of the examples listed on this page seem to be more anti-heroes than tragic heroes. For example, I thought that JC Denton of the game Deus Ex and Wolverine of X-Men were anti-heroes. They do heroic things, but with methods that aren't ordinarily heroic. Am I wrong, or should these examples instead be listed on the anti-hero page?


 * Most of the examples are horrible and hardly fit the definition of a tragic hero. Rocky Balboa?  Michael Corleone? -PassionoftheDamon 12:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, some of the entries are wholly inappropriate. JC Denton, Wolverine and Rocky Balboa are not tragic by any measure. In fact, since JC Denton is a game character controlled by the player, it's hard to even call him an anti-hero, since he can very well be played as a big damn hero.
 * Michael Corleone is more interesting, but his plight is clearly caused by circumstances far more than his character. What exactly is Michael's tragic character flaw supposed to be? Being born in a mob family?82.92.119.11 00:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Corleone has more of a tragic virtue than a tragic flaw; he was devoted to his father and family despite his disdain for their occupation and methodology. His devotion causes him to accept a role in that world. He then acquires most all of the characteristics of a tragic hero listed in the article before his eventual downfall. JubalHarshaw 21:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Harry?
I think classifying Harry Potter as a tragic hero is a bit of a stretch, especially since we don't even know how his story is going to end yet. Anyone want to defend his placement on the list? Meredith March 22:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree......These examples should be classic examples. I would not consider Harry Potter a classic character. Also, he does not have a real tragic flaw, nor does he lead a people ........jw 16:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

maybe this should be rethought now that the series is finished. harry seems like a tragic hero to me... 131.216.24.4 17:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Harry Potter is not a tragic hero. He had a tragic start and a hateful life with the Dursley's, I would say he has a character flaw (being he can't sit back and let others take control-he has to do everything or be part of everything-but if he weren't like that I imagine the books would be very boring). However his character flaw does not ultimitly lead to his death. Yes he gives himself to Voldemort, but self-scafrice is not being tragic (that is more of a romantinc hero)but because of Voldemort's character flaw (the want of eternal life and all power)Harry does not die. In a way Voldemort qualifies more as a tragic hero (not that I would can him a "hero") than Harry. A tragic hero is one whose every action, every breath, blink, and movement lead up to an unescapeable death, and usually a painful and violent one (like Hamlet who is cut by Learties' poisoned sword or Oedipus who stabs out his eyes and is banished from his kingdom, left to wonder and die). that brings up another point; tragic heroes are people of high stature- a king, prince, or a duke- someone in high standing. To the wizarding world Harry is well known but he is not from a family of high social standing, he is scarcly even known to the muggle world, thanks to the efforts of the Dursley's.

Superman
Is Superman a tragic hero since he died in The Death of Superman. - The Black Guy
 * No. A hero is not tragic because he died. Otherwise, just about every comic book character is a tragic hero. It seems many people have trouble with this concept, as evidenced by the examples — a tragic hero is not "a hero to whom tragic things happen", because that would make nearly all of them tragic (you can't be much of a hero if nothing bad ever happens to you, because there's nothing to be heroic about then). A tragic hero is a hero who's doomed to failure because of a single important character flaw. Superman is as far removed from a tragic hero as you can get, since he has no character flaws, except for those stories where the writers feel like giving him one.
 * I see the examples section was completely removed. I have to applaud this uncharacteristically bold move, as the majority of the examples actually weren't. 82.95.254.249 13:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Superhero deaths are normally gimmicks to bring back reader interest. KyuuA4 18:33, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

No character flaws? Kryptonite? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.188.180.74 (talk) 14:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Character" is used in the sense of "personality" here, not "fictional character". Weakness to kryptonite is a physical flaw, not some defect in Superman's psychological makeup. 82.95.254.249 (talk) 10:56, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Achilles' heel
Why does this have a 'citation needed' tag next to it? The article for Achilles is where the claim is made! Citations are only needed for claims that would otherwise go unsubstantiated and could be independent research. This clearly isn't. I realize Wikipedia is pushing to be more reliable, but the tendency for frequent editors to be anal-retentive doesn't help the image much. Ipsenaut 02:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

could someone make a list
could someone give a list of tragic herosArttic00 01:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

What happened?
Odd. I was expecting more from this article when I stumbled into it. KyuuA4 19:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Which would be appropriate, as long as it came to an awareness of its failings before being deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.30.133 (talk) 09:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit
Removed "Not Elizabethan tragic flaw" from the definition of hamartia on the Aristotle Poetics page. As the hamartia link states, there is much debate over Aristotle's meaning of this word in his Poetics. It is not fair or fact to say that Aristotle's definition of hamartia does not overlap or agree with the definition of Elizabethan tragic flaw.

Jana Greede 15:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Clean-up
I believe this article is a little confusing and/or misleading, and leaves no references for clarification.

Most websites and books define Aristotelian tragedy as having these qualities:

A hero of noble birth.

The hero must commit an act of injustice (hamartia).

The hero must be punished excessively for this act.

Even if fate intervenes (or a villian), the tragic hero must be responsible for the act.

The hero must recognize his downfall.

I think the "reversal of fortune" concept may be confusing to some people. Just a thought....

Jana Greede 15:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * There should be plenty of literary analysis on this topic. KyuuA4 21:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)