Talk:Tragic hero/Archive 2

List of Famous Tragic Heroes
It includes The Doctor, but only links to an disambiguation page. Which ever Doctor it is talking about needs to be specifically stated in the link code, so when someone clicks on The Doctor it takes them directly to that particular Doctor not a disambiguation page. --The Virginian (talk) 12:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

"Some common traits characteristic of a tragic hentagonist, where" -What's a hentagonist? And what should it be replaced with? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.10.129.0 (talk) 05:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Romeo and Juliet should be excluded from the list. Their tragic demise was emphatically a result of EXTERNAL CIRCUMSTANCES, not any inherent tragic flaw on either of their parts. Maximilian Caldwell (talk) 06:30, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Arthur Miller in intro list
I've removed Arthur Miller from the intro list of writers of tragedy, since, to my knowledge, he didn't ever explicitly refer to any of his plays as tragedies. He is more likely to have called them dramas, in the tradition of Henrik Ibsen, I believe. As the subsequent section in the article touches on, there is a critical tradition of reading his work in light of the tragic tradition, but with some reservations. DionysosProteus (talk) 12:10, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Heracles...
Is Heracles really a tragic hero? If so explain. I do not think so because he does not have a hamartia and thus i think he should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IPlayBbAll (talk • contribs) 21:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, his tragic flaw is wrath; the killing of his family is what led to his punishment of being assigned the 12 labors. By Aristotelian standards, the pathos has to be quite severe and make the sufferer realize the flaws inside themselves, but it does not have to lead inevitably to ruin or death - Jadams2484 (talk) 17:37, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * On second thought, the article needs to be clarified to state as much - Jadams2484 (talk) 18:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Confusing wordage
Using the word "error" in the opening paragraph leads readers to believe that the tragic hero has made a mistake. While its link to hamartia provides a very different connotation. Please clarify. 72.221.114.113 (talk) 08:21, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. Also, the discussion of Aristotle is misleading in the lead. There is a quote that sounds like it came out of the Poetics, and then an "in fact" statement that clarifies the quote by appealing to the Poetics. That's just a bad representation. The article also needs more clarification on this point. Exactly WHY would Aristotle say the tragic hero had to be noble? My reading of the Poetics is old, but I think he focuses on the emotions of the audience through types of plots. In other words, he is not focusing on the character per se, but on the plot as a whole. I may be wrong in my interpretation, however. Someone will need to cite and add to the article properly.Mabsal (talk) 19:01, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Another quip with the lead: The lead talk about the "modern sense" in the first sentence, but refers to arguably OLD ideas (hamartia, disguised in a pipe link under the word error).Mabsal (talk) 19:18, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Nominations
Guts from berserk is a prime candidate for the tragic hero. He became a mercenary because he was raised by mercenaries, he dosen't want to admit it but he enjoys killing. He joins a band of mercenary and because of misplaced trust his lover was raped and left a mental invalid with the mental ability of a 5 year old and Guts lost his left arm up to half his bicep and right eye. He currently is traveling with his invalid lover trying to kill the man who raped her who also was his best friend before and caused the death of every other mercenary in the group. He still has the flaw that his rage sometimes gets the better of him and he'll jump into a situation without knowing the full details let alone having a plan other then attacking it until it dies.... That's my nomination if you have yours put it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.21.106.232 (talk) 05:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I vote to keep anime characters off the list. While the characters various people posit as tragic heroes may be perfect examples, they are not the most well known. The scholarship of tragedy focuses on well established plays, like Oedipus Rex and Antigone, and I think pop culture should be left out of this discussion. That is, unless this article grows to the extent that such a section is warranted. The plays are more universal and will continue to be discussed or quite some time. Anime characters, even in those circles, will not.Mabsal (talk) 19:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Famous tragic heroes
I've prunned the list of tragic heroes. It's there to illustrate what is meant by "tragic hero", not to give any old character who ends unhappily or of whom the term has been employed metaphorically. The list should give the rule, not the exceptions. Consequently, I've limited the list to characters who actually appear in works entitled "tragedies". DionysosProteus (talk) 12:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The list should somehow be limited to established and uncontroversial examples or eliminated. The problem with having a list sitting there is that it encourages everyone who just read a two bit story they happen to have liked with someone in it who is kind of tragic in it to append that character to the list.  Ekwos (talk) 20:22, 11 July 2010 (UTC)