Talk:Tram/Archive 1

Bordeaux
I lived in Bordeaux until a couple of months ago, and I never figured out how the trams worked. Now I see in this article that Bordeaux has "hidden wires". Where on earth are they? Is it that funny strip in the middle? Chameleon 16:51, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * they're "hidden" in rails. It's explained here : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramway#Alimentation_par_le_sol ;o) --Pontauxchats 09:14, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Translation from french
I'm in the middle of translating from Tramway so I'm parking my notes here in case I never get back to it.

--

OK I got back to it so I removed the notes. The translation needs wikification. The only factual differences were - the Swansea thing (which I think was wrong) - the first electric tram (which I re-integrated into the translation). NB: I did this because of a request on Translation into English.Sbwoodside 02:14, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

From Translation into English:
 * Article: fr:Tramway
 * Corresponding English-language article: Tram
 * Worth doing because: Includes a more detailed history.
 * Originally Requested by: Bogdangiusca 19:29, 7 Feb 2004
 * Status: Done by me Sbwoodside 02:14, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Other notes: Moved from Wikipedia:Requested article translations.

Appropriate header image
In the previous change comment, IsarSteve wrote ''Why delete the Athens Tram image ? ...Modern Manchester Trams?? These trams typify the "Third World" attitude to Public Transport in the UK!'' in response to G-Man replacing a picture of an Athens tram with a Manchester tram as the lead photograph in this article.

Whilst I'm not sure I follow the third-world bit, I too think that this replacement harmed the article. The Athens tram depicted is a latest state of the art vehicle, running on one of the newest systems. It is a 100% low floor model, and an example of a standardised model used in many other cities recently. As such it is a good representation of modern trams.

On the other hand the Manchester Tram represents 10+ year old practice and, whilst locally significant in the UK as the first new generation system here, has actually turned out to be something of an evolutionary dead-end. It is a high floor vehicle designed for use with high platforms (a combination little used elsewhere) and it is a system specific model used nowhere else. As such it probably deserved its previous appearance adjoining the 'Regional variations' section, but certainly not a headline appearance.

I have therefore reinstated the Athens tram, and moved the Manchester one back to its previous location. -- Chris j wood 13:26, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * The reason I replaced it was because it is a terrible photoraph, most of the tram is cut off, and the enlarged version is barely any bigger than the thumbnail. Surely a better image can be found than this one. G-Man 18:18, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Hi Guys.. maybe the third-world was a bit OTT, but it had the desired effect.. As an ex-pat I have to admit that I get very frustrated with the UK and it´s tram developments... My Third- World remark, which by the way I feel welling up in me as I write this, has more to do with the timescale regarding new and updating systems in the UK... I have good friends who are employed by a Transport undertaking running Trams on the coast in the North West of England and the stories they tell me would make your hair curl.. compare that with tramway systems in Karlsruhe, Hannover or Freiburg/Breisgau in (Western)Germany and it´s just a different world.. Even cities that used to be in Communist East Germany e.g. Chemnitz have/are improved/ing their systems and have already overtaken the UK. Seasonal greetings from a cold and snowy Berlin IsarSteve 19:17, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I found a better image on the Finnish Wikipedia, I hope you all agree that it's OK G-Man 21:52, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

older Talk items
Protest: I am new to Wikipedia, but I am European as well. Trams are still relatively widely used accross Europe. Not only Wienna, many German cities are linked with trains. These trains have 1435 mm rails, and their railway nets are connected with underground net and with train net. And yes, they run on electricity. In history, there were horse pulled trains, and steam powered ones. Such train is on display at Railroad museum at Utrecht Holland. And there are things reversed: Trains in Netherlands operate more like tramways then like trains in the rest of world. Janko Dobri&#269;evi&#263;, Zagreb

This is from a previous version of the article:


 * However, all such systems in the United States were removed by the 1950's. This has often been attributed to the larger car manufacturers buying out the tram operators and then pulling up the tracks to make more space for cars.

Not all systems were removed, some remain, for example the famous San Francisco trollies. San Francisco still has two separate tram system, the Muni street cars (electric) and the world famous cable cars (pulled).

The second statement, about car manufacturers, should be clarified. Since tracks don't take up space that would be used for cars, I doubt that was the reason for their removal. The article alludes to the real reason: that car manufacturers caused trolley removal in order to sell fleets of buses. This is an interesting topic! Someone with better information should expand it.


 * In Melbourne, some tram lines run on tracks which are in lanes that cars and buses are not permitted to enter - tram stops placed in the middle of the streets physically stop cars from using those lanes. Therefore, their removal would allow extra lanes of traffic.  Increasing traffic flow was certainly given as a reason when advocating removing the tramlines from Melbourne's streets in the 50's and 60's (any such attempt now would be doomed to fail).  --user:Robert Merkel

I removed this:


 * There is a tram museum in Bendigo, some two hours north of Melbourne, and another in Maryland, USA, near Washington, DC.

A quick search shows numerous tram(way) museums in Australia. Unless there is something particularly distinguishing about the one in Bendigo, it seems out of place here. If there is something of special significance about Bendigo, by all means put it back into the article, but mention why that tram museum is notable.


 * The Bendigo Tram Museum is especially significant, anon. It's far and away the largest one in Australia, and (unless I miss my guess) one of the biggest in the world. There are quite a few others - one right here in Ballarat - but Bendigo is the mecca for tram lovers. Don't know anything about the Maryland one. Tannin 23:12, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Tannin! Why don't you edit the article to say something about that. I originally removed it as part of my crusade to get rid of pointless enumerative lists. Not that lists are bad, but for every sentence to turn into something like "there are also tram museums in Adelaide, Antwerp, Atlanta, Brussels, Boston, Chicago..." would be annoying. So if it's an especially important tram museum, I think it should say so to justify its inclusion in the article. --Nate Silva 23:16, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * My pleasure, Nate. I am horribly pushed for time right now, unfortunately) and won't be on-line for more than a few moments till next week sometime, so hopefully someone else will take care of it. And good luck with your campaign: I hate those pointless lists too. Cheers -- Tannin

Good info on National City Lines, thanks to whoever put that in!

I wrote the original sentence that there are tram-type systems in the US, but not normally known as trams. I just removed a statement that they are known as "streetcars". That is partially true, but they're known by many different names. Light-rail, commuter rail, trolley, etc. Some of these names may not be totally accurate but they're what people call the systems that are otherwise known as trams. Examples: Portland Streetcar, Portland MAX Light Rail, San Diego Trolley, San Francisco Cable Cars. All of these operate, at least paritially, as trams. However, I don't think yet another enumerative list is necessary ("...also known as streetcars, trolleys, cable cars, bla, bla").

--Nate Silva 23:08, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

"The name "tram" is from Low German traam, meaning the "beam (of a wheelbarrow)"."

Is this true? I've read in lots of places that they were named after a man called Outram. Lee M 19:22, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

User: Vaoverland
I am from Richmond, Virginia, where Frank J. Sprague is credited with creating the first successful electric trolley-powered streetcar system on some of our 7 hills in 1887-1888. The last streetcars operated here in 1949. However, Richmond has plans underway here for a heritage streetcar system, such as currently described in the Wikipedia article tram. I hope we can have some fun here. Vaoverland 23:09, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)

terminology, U.S. vs others
When working on articles for WikiProject Trains, we have been confronted with a problem in major differences in terminology used around the world. This is going to come up in this WikiProject as well.

Here are 2 examples already:


 * streetcar Should this really be redirected to tram, which is an obscure usage in US? I have never heard the term tram used here except referring to some small rubber-tired people movers used for parking shuttles at places like theme parks and major events.


 * subway should this really be redirected to metro, an inapplicable usage in US? The only time I hear metro used here is occasionally for the formal or slang name of a subway system, such as Metro in Washington, DC.

How can we incorporate the differences and educate everyone?

Comments on the above, anyone? Vaoverland 22:57, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, I think if the article is talking about a system in an American city, then we should say streetcar. Tram simply isn't used in the United States. Ditto with metro. Mackensen (talk) 23:54, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * That is my thinking also. I think we should have articles under subway and streetcar which indicate to SEE metro and SEE tram respectively for the non-North American version, and vice versa, if that is the proper way to differentiate. This would help readers find what they are looking for. This approach would allow us to pull out most of the U.S. related content in each article, and make room for more photos and content. I think the next step would be to post this on the talk pages for tram and metro, and solicit comments and help from other writers to be discussed here. Vaoverland 19:32, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a plan. Mackensen (talk) 19:35, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * It appear we have a quorum, so I will make it so, and we'll seee what we hear. Vaoverland 20:04, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

WikiProject Streetcars
This page is now part of WikiProject Streetcars. On Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Streetcars we are developing a great place to talk over our ideas and work out our differences about articles.

For reference purposes, here is a listing of some of the WP articles which relate to streetcars and trams. Please add to the list for project for working purposes.


 * WikiProject Streetcars
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Streetcars

Concepts, History and Technology

 * Bus Rapid Transit
 * Cable car (railway)
 * General Motors Streetcar Conspiracy
 * Heritage streetcar
 * Light rail
 * metro
 * Monorail
 * People mover
 * public transport
 * Streetcar now separate article from tram
 * subway now separate article from metro
 * Tram

Vehicles

 * Birney
 * PCC streetcar
 * Peter Witt streetcar
 * Electric trolleybus

Manufacturers

 * Gomaco Trolley Company
 * JG Brill and Company
 * Perley A. Thomas Car Works
 * St. Louis Car Company
 * United Streetcar

Systems and Cities

 * Berlin Tram
 * Blackpool tramway
 * Brussels trams
 * Dunedin cable tramway system
 * F Market & Wharves
 * HTM Personenvervoer
 * Kingsway tramway subway
 * List of light rail transit systems
 * London Trams
 * RijnGouweLijn
 * San Francisco cable car system
 * Tramlink
 * Trams in London
 * Richmond, Virginia
 * Winter Park Company (a very short line in central Florida including a map)

People

 * Frank J. Sprague
 * Charles Joseph Van Depoele

Culture

 * A Streecar Named Desire

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Vaoverland (talk • contribs) 20:14, 25 December 2004 (UTC)

Budapest
The article asserts the following: "In many cases buses also provided a smoother ride and a faster journey than the older trams. For example, the tram network survived in Budapest but for a considerable period of time bus fares were higher to recognise the superior quality of the buses." I really don't believe that this is true for Budapest. I am almost certain that the reason that bus fares were higher than tram or metro fares was because buses required expensive imported diesel, while the trains were run off of energy generated by local coal or nuclear. And nobody would seriously claim that the Budapest buses are faster than its modern metro lines. Can anybdody back up that assertion?--Maxn 03:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)