Talk:Trap music/Archive 1

Notability
Honestly, what defines notability for trap artists to be included in this particular article? I've seen several artists added to this, and what would be a good upper limit for example artists? many thanks, Helicopter Llama 23:22, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * A sensible criterion would be to only list them if they have Wikipedia articles. - filelakeshoe  &#xF0F6;    10:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Holy shit, guys, this is terribly inaccurate
I don't edit Wikipedia so I don't want to go and screw with this myself right now, buuuuut...

This page is actually describing two distinct genres.

One "Trap" is absolutely, positively rap music. Stuff like Gucci Mane.

The other is absolutely, positively electronic, and has a lot of recognizable qualities.

The two Trap genres are not the same genre. Those two genres just happen to have the same name.

And the name "Trap" was inspired to be given to the second (Electronic) genre because of the term's rap connotation, brought about by the first (Rap) genre of the same name. The name was chosen because this second genre, although typically put together by oh-so-white DJs, feels... well... gangsta. And that's where a lot of the elements come from.

- The EDM styled trap of the past couple of years is from the hip hop-styled trap (which a lot of was/is electronic too). Songs from both the "genres" can even have identical percussion patterns. It's not two separate genres that happen to share the same name, they're essentially the same with slight differences. And it doesn't matter if most of the DJs of the EDM-styled trap are white. Lots of hip hop beat-makers are white too, as are most hip hop consumers today.


 * If you don't edit wikipedia, how do you know how to embed external links? Charles35 (talk) 03:26, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 * There's an "insert link" button in the edit toolbar. Anyway, we need some sources to tackle this problem - sources which talk about how the word "trap" has been completely taken out of context to refer to a different genre to what it referred to before. This whole thing reminds me a bit of UK garage vs. NY house/US garage (though there was more crossover there imo). filelakeshoe (talk) 10:22, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Sound
More cited sources and information regarding the actual sound of the original genre would be valued information in order to be able to differentiate between the sound of new electronic developments, whose sub article would also benefit from more cited information regarding the actual sound of the genre. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SpaceNTimeForADime (talk • contribs) 19:51, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Clarification for "808" reference at the beginning of the article.
I was trying to edit the main introduction but it is semi-protected.

I want to clarify what an "808 bassline" is by rewording it to "808 drum machine basslines" and then linking the "808" to this wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_TR-808

I have contributed frequently to this Wikipedia entry. May I have unprotected editing rights? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tradetherookie (talk • contribs) 19:59, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Done Added the link to Roland TR 808, also the page is not protected anymore, so you can contribute as well. 2Flows (talk) 11:06, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Hardcore hip hop is an origin of Trap
"Hardcore hip hop" is an origin of Trap music because of the influence from "drugs" and the characteristics in this genre with influinces from artists such as: UGK, 50 Cent, T.I., Mobb Deep, Rick Ross, Waka Flocka Flame and Young Jeezy

1. Trap music itself is not actually a new development. Trap grew out of a real southern, gritty hip-hop genre that speaks to the struggles of minority and oppressed people in that region. The music was used as inspiration and drive for the day, whereas lighter, less forceful music wasn’t enough. Fast forward to today, and you’ll find that not much has changed; trap music is still hard as hell. What is so great about trap music, as with EDM in general, is that it brings people together in the sound of the music. Because trap is a combination of hardcore hip-hop and EDM, it appeals to fans of both genres.

2. Trap music is a music genre which originated in the early 2000's from Southern hip-hop, hardcore hip hop, mobb and crunk music. Initially an underground genre, The first accredited trap song is Trap Niggas recorded by the rap group A-Dam-Shame in 2000. Released by Trumpp Tight Records based in Scottdale, Georgia (a trap around Atlanta Georgia). Trap music first experienced mainstream exposure in 2003 after the success of a number of landmark albums, including T.I.'s Trap Muzik and Young Jeezy's Let's Get It: Thug Motivation 101. In 2010, trap music experienced a renewed success with releases by artists including Waka Flocka Flame, Rick Ross and Gucci Mane. 

3.Trap has its origins in the 2000s in the U.S., where it was born from Down South, Hardcore Rap and Crunk. The first rap group to use the term trap in a song was A-Dam-Shame (Trap Niggas). T.I. was the first rapper signed to a major label to use this term. He describes it in his texts the place where you dealing drugs. His music is preferred in this case to be heard. (Translated) {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXzWL19cuaU]--Bpjones101 (talk) 04:03, 3 September 2013 (UTC) Sample Mobb Deep - Shook Ones Part II (Original) = (https://soundcloud.com/acmo/mobb-deep-shook-ones-pt-2) Mobb Deep - Shook Ones Part II (HOllO Trap Remix) = (https://soundcloud.com/hollomusic/mobb-deep-shook-ones-part-2) Trap Music HD Exclusive Mix Vol.2 = (https://soundcloud.com/enevel/basstrapmixvol2)

120.144.137.153 (talk) 07:55, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The sources you have provided are not considered reliable since they are either self-published, blogs or a wiki, and as such cannot be used as a reference. Read WP:RS to learn how to identify reliable sources. Also giving samples yourself is considered original research which cannot be considered a reliable source. Unless the facts you have stated are not backed up by a reliable source they cannot be used in the article. 2Flows (talk) 15:38, 8 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Exactly. Please research the most reliable sources on the topic (i.e. "trap") rather than your point of view on the topic. Dan56 (talk) 16:09, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Dan, You don't help the situation in my opinion — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.144.137.153 (talk) 13:42, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Trap music is a direct descendant of Kraftwerk, electro-funk (Afrika Bambaataa), and Miami Bass of the 1980s, as is Southern hip-hop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.25.172.62 (talk) 18:27, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Definition of the word Trap
Currently the article states that "The term "trap" was literally used to refer to the place where drug deals are made." This could use a more in-depth explanation as to why would it be called trap. "Trap" being a place for drug dealing could imply that drug dealers are the trappers and drug users the prey but I have also understand a more societal point of view being something like "trap" being a housing project with high unemployment rate and people can't get out of there because they are unemployed and can't get a job maybe because they are profiled according to their residential area, hence the term "being in a trap". These social conditions then creates a demand for both drug use and employment in drug dealing. --Custoo (talk) 23:03, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What you say could be true, but we cannot add original research, so unless you have reliable sources that back your claims, we can't change it. 2Flows (talk) 10:09, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The theme is discussed in the documentary The House I Live In but unfortunately the term "trap" is not used. --Custoo (talk) 19:51, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have a problem with the definition section as well. But at a loss for a ref. Would Urban Dictionary work? I have not looked it up there but from the way that I recall, this was a term used by pimps/drug-dealers in the early 80's, as-in, "Ho-trap". Don't ask me what the Ho-trap is because I really don't know. 98.221.118.184 (talk) 03:09, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Trap's Dubstep and Grime influences
Whoever is removing citations for Grime and Dubstep as stylistic origins please explain their reasons before doing so. Even under the Dubstep wikipedia entry Trap is described as a sub-genre. Additionally artists like RL Grime have explained that the UK Bass scene which has been around for a decade longer has been a significant stylistic influence on their Trap music. The very fact that most producers cite dubstep as an influence which in itself has its origins in Grime, should be more than enough to support having Grime/Dubstep as a stylistic origin! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.178.88.82 (talk) 06:53, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I have raised this issue before and I would like to expand upon reasons for citing UK Bass genres (Dubstep and Grime) which predate modern electronic forms of Trap by a decade as a significant influence. StaticVapor has repeatedly blocked my efforts to highlight the links between modern Trap Music and UK bass genre by stating that I was using "original research".

Firstly Trap in its modern guise is merely a rehashing of well trodden ground in what are dubbed UK Bass genres in US (Like Dubstep which has a Rap based UK progenitor Grime)

In this article http://www.playgroundmag.net/music/music-magazine-articles/music-reports/the-life-and-death-of-trap-the-genre-that-never-was the reporter cites that Baauer who is the poster boy for the Trap sound as " (Baauer) a kid from Brooklyn who (as Mad Decent said when it introduced “Harlem Shake” to the world) has been doing UK bass as much as he has Southern rap."

The LA weekly also noted the links between the newer electronic form of Trap and its UK Bass progenitor Dubstep http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/2012/10/trap_music_edm_uz_baauer_ugk.php?page=2 stating re Trap "You could basically call it the next phase of dubstep. It plays at a club-ready 140 bpm while retaining dubstep's craze-inducing drops. (That said, eschewing the over-hyped and much-disparaged name "dubstep" is definitely a good PR move.)" So while I understand a desire by some producers to distance themselves from Dubstep, it has also been used by individuals on Wikipedia like StaticVapor to ignore the links between Trap and older UK Bass genres

In a stereogum article the links between Trap and UK Bass lines are noted http://www.stereogum.com/1115091/from-t-i-to-tnght-a-look-at-trap-rave/top-stories/lead-story/ with Flosstradamus's track " “Total Recall” takes another route, pulling together UK bass lines, gritty club, and their love of hardstyle. Here the foot-stomping, hard techno grunts are as much at play as the signature rolling snares associated with trap."

And finally similiarities between the intense sound of Crunk and Grime have been noted before with Lil Jon in 2004 a well known Crunk artist stating in the BBC with regards to Grime Artist Dizze Rascal "“I like Dizzee,” Lil Jon said recently, joining the Dylan Mills fan club, which also includes Andre 3000. “Even if I don’t know what the f**k he be saying.”" and even as far back as 2004 from when this article is dated American media outlets were noted for paying attention to this UK Bass Genre noting "Having all but ignored UK urban music for years, even American artists and magazines like XXL are opening their ears to the cockney accents spitting their stories over chaotic keys and speaker-smashing bass" http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/collective/A3299204

I will also add additional references later today, but I would like the contribution of UK Bass genres like Dubstep and Grime to Traps modern sound to be added to the main page of the wiki. Please read the articles cited above and tell me your thoughts. I find it strange when both Baauer and Diplo who have both played at the "Boiler Room" events in LA and NYC which showcases UK Bass music and have publicly acknowledged UK Bass as an influence, that there appears to be an unwillingness to acknowledge the UK contributions to the Trap genre in the USA.


 * Because they're not stylistic origins. Stylistic origin means what genres the style was born from, and there was trap music before dubstep influenced it, as the text in the article quite clearly spells out. - filelakeshoe (t / c) 13:30, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Trap has gone through distinct phases the early crunk/southern phase and the more recent electronic phase which start circa 2012-2013 and came to the fore with Baauer's breakout track "Harlem Shake" which represents Trap in its current form. It is this electronic form which lifts highly from Dubstep and Grime. As a result, the influence of these genres on Trap's modern electronic sound should be cited. Also the Lil jon quote shows that even in the early crunk period, grime was already an influence on crunk artists who are cited as stylistic origin for Trap. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.178.88.82 (talk) 15:16, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

In fact Lil Jon actually collaborated with Lethal B a well known UK grime artist in the early 2000s making a song called pow. A Crunk and Grime collaboration was also released way back in 2004-2005, it was also released in the US UK version see here http://www.discogs.com/Semtex-Crunk-Grime/release/4384304 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.178.88.82 (talk) 15:32, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

No one has refuted the examples I have given that the 2012-2013 trap sound has been highly influenced by dubstep and grime, so reference should be made to this fact in the main article. Locking the article and ignoring facts shows deliberate national bias on the part of American wikipedia users who do not want to recognise that trap in both its crunk and modern incarnation has been highly influenced by a more developed and older UK bass scene. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.123.179.125 (talk) 18:33, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

'''I have to agree with the previous commenters. Modern trap has obviously been influenced by dubstep and grime and much of its stylistic origins are from EDM. Thus this should be stated in the styluictic origins section. 76.78.3.118 (talk) 19:22, 24 November 2013 (UTC)'''


 * The thing is, the origins fields in the infobox should state where the genre originated from, not where/how later developments in the genre happened. Otherwise the infobox in hip hop music would state just about every music genre in existence. As far as I can tell this "croydon, bow" is still completely unsourced and just describing the origins of dubstep and grime. After reading these sources about grime/crunk artists collabing before the EDM trap boom I'd be for keeping grime as a stylistic origin. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 11:38, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Grime music has a documented history in Bow E3 London, please see http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/dec/06/a-history-of-grime While Dubstep its successor originated in Croydon, please see http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2010/sep/10/magnetic-man-dubstep — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nograviti (talk • contribs) 22:10, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm aware of that, however this article is about trap, not dubstep or grime. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 09:34, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Whoever keeps adding this Croydon, Bow stuff back to the infobox, find one source stating that "trap originated in Croydon and Bow" (not "dubstep originated in Croydon and grime originated in Bow") and it can stay. Until you can do that, it's still unsourced. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 09:40, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately filelakeshoe, EDM Trap (second wave) is a clear offshot of Dubstep and Grime, which means its origins are in Bow the birthplace of Grime and Croydon the birthplace of Dubstep. While I understand that this page is about Trap, its has been accepted that Trap's second wave origins are in Dubstep and Grime. Thus the geographical origin of EDM Trap is London. Also you noted that the two UK Bass genres have been an influence and they predate EDM trap by more than a decade and thus are acceptable stylistic origins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.178.88.81 (talk) 10:46, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * That makes no sense. By the time "EDM Trap" came into existence dubstep and grime were popular worldwide and not restricted to London. Saying that "trap evolved from grime, therefore the geographical origin of trap is the same as grime" is nonsense, we don't write that UK hard house originated in Chicago. Find one source that says the second wave of trap originated in London and we're sorted. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 11:00, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * And btw, we don't write that the origin of house is the UK either, just because later developments in the genre happened there. The later developments are described the article and the infobox states where, and from what, the genre started. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 11:04, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Hello filelakeshoe thanks for your swift response. Actually you undermined your own argument, all house including UK House are merely defined as offshoots of original American house which originated in Chicago even on wikipedia.

EDM Trap (second wave), wouldnt even exist were it not for the UK Bass genres (Dubstep and Grime) from which it borrows heavily. Also we are not talking about Geographical origins per se, more cultural origins and for the second wave that is London as EDM Trap is an offshoot of Dubstep. I would point you in the direction of the Punk wikipedia page which cites multiple cultural origins for example

I believe we are agreed that Dubstep and Grime are stylistic origins at the very least? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.178.88.81 (talk) 11:26, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually the article UK hard house states the origin of the genre as UK and not Chicago. Punk is different because its prototypes evolved in different places at the same time. There's no question that trap (EDM) is an offshoot of dubstep, grime and trap (hip hop), I'm more questioning the "Bow and Croydon" part, as by the time trap (EDM) happened Big Apple records and its influence was long gone. As long as this article is about two genres at once (I would support a split as suggested below) I would compromise on stylistic origins: southern hip hop, dubstep and grime and cultural origins: 2000s, United States and United Kingdom (if a source can be found that the second wave of trap started in the UK), without being too specific. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 12:17, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

The following article charts the emergence of a UK variant of Trap at the same time as EDM trap began to rise in the US (see http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature.aspx?1730) one of the largest online electronic music magazines. In truth I think creating a separate EDM Trap thread, while it makes sense would just complicate matters further. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.174.219.170 (talk) 08:26, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Could we please come to consensus on whether Dubstep should be included as a Stylistic origin on the Trap music page?

I personally don't think there is strong enough case to cite UK Grime as an origin perhaps, but I do feel that 'Dubstep' should be cited in the stylistic origins section. Is the only individual in disagreement with this change StaticVapor?

Finally user 178.174.219.170 has also provided a source highlighting a UK Trap scene? Any thoughts on adding the England as a regional scene? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nograviti (talk • contribs) 10:40, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

I intend to edit the Trap stylistic origins section to include 'Dubstep' as a Stylistic origins, with regards to the second wave of EDM trap, backed up by the sources above. Does anyone have any objections? If so why? UKBassHead (talk) 07:34, 22 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Reliable sources need to be cited that dubstep influenced the original genre of trap, as it evolved into the newer electronic side of trap. This is because electronic trap did evolve from the origional, it is not just two genres with the same name. If that was true we would be required to have two articles. I am tired of being claimed to be the only person in disagreement with these edits when Filelakeshoe has shown disagreement to it too. STATic message me!   12:16, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

StaticVapor, nice you have responded after numerous pings from multiple users, actually you are the only individual who disagrees with this. With regards to a source, please see http://www.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/2012/10/04/what-the-hell-is-trap-music-and-why-is-dubstep-involved, if the title "what the hell is trap music and why is dubstep involved" isnt self explanatory enough, also see page two re Trap "You could basically call it the next phase of dubstep. It plays at a club-ready 140 bpm while retaining dubstep's craze-inducing drops. (That said, eschewing the over-hyped and much-disparaged name "dubstep" is definitely a good PR move.)".

The above article if you bothered to read it, charts the journey from the original Trap which I acknowledge to the newer more electronic version called 'EDM trap' which incorporates Dubstep influences.

I also tried to show how rap based UK Grime has influenced Southern Hip Hop (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/collective/A3299204 & http://www.discogs.com/Semtex-Crunk-Grime/release/4384304) and as direct forbear of Dubstep by extension influenced Trap as well.

Unlike yourself I wont state Filelakeshoe's opinion for him, he is free to comment himself along with Nograviti who has been helpful in pointing out how to handle this discussion UKBassHead (talk) 15:20, 22 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry I have what is called a real life, and I had to finally comment here or you and Nograviti's annoying selves would have never left me alone. You still have yet to explain or source how dubstep was a stylistic influence of the original trap music that started in the early 2000s. I never denied that it "influenced" or sounds similar to EDM trap. As for your sources for grime, the BBC source does not mention the word "trap" once and discogs is a user-generated unreliable source. I never stated anyones opinion, so do not put words in my mouth, or is that too hard to ask from you since you contiue to do it over and over. STATic message me!   17:16, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I wont get into trading insults and just stick to matter at hand. But based upon your last post, we are now getting somewhere. I dont need to prove that Dubstep was a stylistic influence on 'original trap music'. What I have proved and you have tacitly accepted was that it was an influence on the second wave electronic 'EDM Trap' sound. 'EDM Trap' is more than just influenced by Dubstep it is actually a stylistic offshoot of it and this should be reflected in the stylistic origins section.

We are now at a juncture, until there is full agreement that the 'original trap' is exclusive of 'EDM Trap' meriting two separate pages as others like 2Flows have suggested, then I would suggest you compromise accepting that the influence of Dubstep should be included, reflecting its significant contribution to the latest incarnation of the Trap genre. UKBassHead (talk) 07:02, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I would agree that 'Dubstep' should be added to the stylistic origins section of the Trap page, but I am of the same opinion as StaticVapor on 'UK Grime' it cannot be included for the reasons he has already outlined, although I do understand where you are coming from. Nograviti (talk) 08:03, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Ok point taken, so we are all agreed that the Stylistic Origins section should be changed to only include 'Dubstep' UKBassHead (talk) 14:31, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Can someone point to a wiki guideline about usage of "Stylistic origins" field? I had assumed it is for origins of the original genre only, in which case dubstep would not apply. However, if the field can be used for origins of sub-genres as well, then dubstep can be added, as it is well-sourced that it has influenced EDM trap. 2Flows (talk) 14:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Hello 2Flows, thanks for joining the discussion. I couldnt find any clear wiki guideline about the usage of the "Stylistic origins" field, but there are other pages where origins do not only cite the original genre. Unless any evidence can be presented that the origins for later sub-genres cannot be included (although I view EDM Trap as largely a distinct entity from original Trap), given the clear references already cited above, then we should be good to make this change. UKBassHead (talk) 08:09, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, "but there are other pages where origins do not only cite the original genre". does not cut it. The word we are talking about is "origins", the origins of the genre known as trap was not influenced by dubstep and there are no sources saying that. STATic message me!   16:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Hello Static, Nonetheless my latter point still stands, unless you can find a wikipedia reference on "Stylistic Origins" where it states clearly that origins for later sub-genres/variants of a genre cannot be included then this change is a go. Please do not try to confuse this discussion, we are refering to EDM Trap here, which has a clear source above defining the direct links between Dubstep and 'EDM Trap', which you yourself have tacitly accepted. UKBassHead (talk) 07:39, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I would try to ask on that template's talk page to get some sort of consensus on that. Since there is nothing defining it on Template: Infobox music genre, we have to take it by name value. Which means stylistic origin of the music genre that is known as "trap". EDM trap was influenced by the original hip hop trap, along with dubstep and other electronic genres. You have yet to even say or indicate where there was consensus for changing the stylistic origin section to include subgenres, on any page. Changes are not "a go", unless there is consensus so calm down. STATic message me!   18:46, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Template talk:Infobox music genre has less than 30 watchers, it can take quite some time til anyone replies there and I doubt enough people would join the discussion to form a consensus. I guess we'd better ask on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music. Meanwhile, I agree with Static that "stylistic origins" makes more sense to include just the origins of the original genre. 2Flows (talk) 19:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Hello Static having to "take it by name value" is a very weak argument as stylistic origins can mean different things to different people (origins can also mean any major stylistic influences on genre's latest sound period), which is the reason why this discussion has arisen. Like I said unless you can find a source, which in this case you obviously cant, then the interpretation can go either way.

2Flows I disagree with Static as the current EDM Trap sound bears little relation to the original Trap. His attempt to steer this debate down the lines of saying we can only talk about original trap's origins, when there clearly have been TWO very distinct waves of this genre is disingenuous at best (especially if you chose to ignore Static's pro-American bias)! His suggestion of going to Template talk:Infobox music genre is not an effort to be helpful, but an effort to bog down this discussion which you inadvertently highlighted. If you are still uncertain, then I welcome your idea of asking on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music, but sadly I fear we are only fulfilling Static's agenda of becoming embroiled in an unnecessary lengthy debate on what will ultimately be a single word entry in a section of the Trap wikipedia page. UKBassHead (talk) 08:27, 31 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Not weak at all since you still refuse to indicate where there was consensus for using the parameter in that way. The only one with a weak argument is you. Your false bias claim is just ridiculous and you make yourself look foolish. This is so very sad and if you choose to continue to comment on contributors, rather then the content you will not be on Wikipedia for long. In other words, stop talking about me, and actually discuss the issue at hand. You also are taking my suggestion the wrong way, I would like to get broad consensus on the template rather then you continuing to pretend there was consensus on something there never was. STATic message me!   19:45, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Address my points instead of ad hominem attacks Static, the only person who is belligerent here is you. Like I said you have no reference to back up your intepretation of 'Stylistic origins', so you are in the corner on that one. We are close to achieving consensus as other users have either acknowledged my points or directly supported them if you review this whole discussion. So calm down, stop acting like a truculent teenager and lets see how this discussion plays out. Finally I will continue this discussion how I please, I think the real issue here is that I have raised some salient good points (deal with it).

Any further personal attacks or misleading statements that have nothing to do with the subject matter at hand will be ignored going forward. UKBassHead (talk) 06:41, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Trap (music genre)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Trap (music genre)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "guardian": From Beez in the Trap:  From LGBT hip hop: "Zebra Katz, Mykki Blanco and the rise of queer rap". The Guardian, June 9, 2012. From Prism (Katy Perry album):  From Lady Gaga: From Footwork (Chicago):  From Demonstration (Tinie Tempah album):  <li>From Drill (music genre): </li> <li>From Drunk in Love: </li> </ul>
 * </li>
 * </li>
 * </li>

Reference named "spin":<ul> <li>From Lana Del Rey discography: </li> <li>From Partition (song): </li> <li>From Yeezus: </li> <li>From RL Grime: </li> <li>From Summertime Sadness: </li> <li>From Beyoncé (album): </li> <li>From Young Scooter: </li> <li>From Drill (music genre): </li> <li>From Young Chop: </li> </ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 16:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Proposing split
The current article really deals with two separate music genres, sharing the same name. As shown by the sources on the page, EDM trap is a genre, originating from the hip hop version of trap music and other EDM genres. Even though they are described in separate sections, certain aspects are confusing. For example the current version of the article lists both southern hip hop and dubstep as origins of trap music. The first is true for the hip hop version, and the second is true for the EDM version, but putting the two together is misleading.

Having two separate articles will clarify all the confusion that has been going on, and will provide better grounds for developing each of the subjects. So I propose to split the article into Trap music (hip hop) and Trap music (EDM) (or similarly titled), and use the current page as disambiguation for the two. 2Flows (talk) 06:07, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Support, this is essentially a similar case to early hardcore/happy hardcore, where the offshoot has become distinct enough for its own article. There are clearly enough sources about each, even if they might not specify hip hop or electronic. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 11:52, 24 June 2014 (UTC)


 * comment I don't see enough valid content here to flesh out two distinct articles covering separate histories. Would rather see a single well written article than two poorly sourced ones. Trap can simply mean different things to different people, some styles of music change/evolve/transmute without a new sub-genre nomenclature emerging. Semitransgenic  talk. 09:33, 25 June 2014 (UTC)


 * comment: If there's such a thing as downtempo trap (or similarly titled), e.g. Sylvan Esso's "Hey Mami (Big Wild Remix)", would it be comfortability under trap music (hip hop) (ost)? DjScrawl (talk) 01:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose, There is no question that there are different types of trap, but splitting the articles will in my opinion cause more confusion than good. I would rather work on making the "Electronic developments" part better for a start. Tecfan (talk) 23:06, 28 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Support, EDM trap keeps gaining popularity, and I think at this point it deserves to have its own separate article outside of "Electronic developments" in an article primarily focused on hip hop trap. There shouldn't be much difficultly finding sources.Abierma3 (talk) 17:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Support. The level of popularity of EDM in general, and EDM trap in particular, as compared to HipHop and HipHop Trap, respectively, would warrant inverting the location of the two terms. That is, in 2015, it actually makes more sense for readers to be searching for EDM trap, and then at the bottom they can see the relationship with HipHop trap. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Picardin (talk • contribs) 15:35, 3 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Support. EDM trap, while certainly heavily influenced by Southern-style trap, has in many ways become something else entirely. Compare, say, Gucci Mane or Young Jeezy to Diplo or Flosstradamus. Also, for genres to share names isn't uncommon--take, for example, funk vs funk carioca. J. Martin Velez Linares (talk) 14:34, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

First wave / second wave
The first wave / second wave distinction does not seem to correspond to anything in reality. The so-called second wave has no distinguishing characteristics (or at least none are mentioned in the article) and is represented here by half a dozen singles. I have provided alternative headings and modified one sentence for continuity. 86.189.15.130 (talk) 08:23, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Reverted without explanation, sweeping away two dozen edits by four different editors. This explains the state of the page. So it goes. 86.189.15.140 (talk) 09:05, 11 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I could not agree more. The statement that leads off the Second Wave section says, "In 2010, the second wave of various trap records reached the mainstream hip-hop charts across the United States." If you read the source for this, it never says anything about a "second wave." The only major distinguishment the source makes is between trap and the electronic developments beginning in 2012. The source has no indication that there are separate waves of trap (rap). Abierma3 (talk) 17:19, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Full protection
This article has been fully protected due to edit warring until 2 October, 2015. Please use the talk page to get agreement about the disputed points. EdJohnston (talk) 01:33, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * , this seems a little unneccessary. Why not just warn the two editors involved first? I don't think either of them broke 3RR anyways. If you read the two sections above, you will see this article is in need of a split, so if anything, bold editing should be encouraged. Abierma3 (talk) 19:34, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Protection can be lifted if agreement is reached on talk. Your post here is the first time since June that anyone has used the talk page, though more than a dozen reverts occurred in the month of September. EdJohnston (talk) 20:35, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Electronic Dance Music is not a stylistic origin of Trap Music.
Electronic Dance Music (or EDM) is not a stylistic origin of Trap music. EDM only incorporates characteristics of the instrumentals from the Trap music genre into its works. Trap Music only originated from Southern Hip-Hop, Crunk Music, Hardcore Hip-Hop and drug dealing culture. It would be better to create a separate/sub genre titled "EDM Trap" instead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TrapGod (talk • contribs) 01:05, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

1990s
Guys, who look after EDM and other music genre articles, ie semitransgenic and filakeshoe, please look after this article to remove any unsourced bullshit about trap origins in the "early 1990s". Thanks guys. I know Wikipedia is free and voluntary, but thanks if you do that. Grouping "Memphis rap" and "crunk" into trap seems eh. But if anyone finds reliable sources, thats cool to add 1990s into origins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.57.255.91 (talk) 12:57, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Latin trap - content dispute
There is currently a content dispute regarding recent edits to the "Latin trap" section. Yesterday I made considerable edits to that section to remove a paragraph sourced primarily by other Wikipedia articles, and to remove the excessive promotion of non-notable musicians. My edit also added detail about the history of Latin trap. My edit was reverted by User:Anonbirdie, who states on their user page that they created their Wikipedia account "to add underground artists making a big impact on music and not being recognized for it". As well, Anonbirdie's most recent revert was of User:ClueBot NG, who identified their edit as spam. I welcome other editors to comment on this content dispute. Thanks. Magnolia677 (talk) 13:21, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Magnolia677 coded a spam bot against me as well... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anonbirdie (talk • contribs) 16:22, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

The information I added to the wikipedia article was all notable information with notable artists. The user Magnolia677 keeps saying I don't have credible sources but the artist I added has collaborated with notable artists and is a pioneer of Latin Trap music. He is connected in the underground and I have seen him perform with Bone Thugs n Harmony and 3 Six Mafia. He has had radio interviews and collaborated with a Producer of Latin Trap music (Hugo Diaz). Magnolia677 continues to remove credible information because he says the artist is non-notable but the information is important to history and very interesting since Latin Trap was originated in Miami when Miami Bass was created. I love history and I just want to contribute so everyone knows about the history that is unfolding now. It is unfair I'm being harassed over something that has notable sources. I don't understand this blatant harassment over something with works cited and notable sources.

First Magnolia sent me an article on wikipedia that provided guidelines to add information to wikipedia, when I abided by all the guidelines he began to blatantly harass me on multiple accounts because he has a personal vendetta against underground artists. Each time I add credible information he tries to over-ride it with no valid reason except that he PERSONALLY doesn't think the information is notable. But I think it's quite notable since this artist curated a show in Miami with Bone thugz and Harmony and 3 six mafia. I think it's notable because he was ridiculed for sounding too latino in a song where he featured 2 memers on BTNH and isn't that the SOUL of latin trap? I don't understand why this user keeps harassing me and erasing my edits. Isn't it notable that he collaborated with one of the Latin pioneers of Trap/ Bass music in Miami? Honestly this is a big headache. Being a fan of Latin Trap and a latina myself, I dedicated myself to be a historian of the story unfolding in Miami right now and I will not allow someone with no valid reason to continue to harass me because he thinks an artist who has made beautiful uplifting songs with notable artists is non-notable. I just don't understand why this Magnolia person is harassing me. If he wants me to add the personal cites of the artists I will do so after this edit,they will still be credible.

thank you for listening and understanding all, AnonBirdie (Jazzelle)

Edit: Although I see other works citing Wikipedia as a source since I'm being harassed by Magnolia677 I added outside sources. Thank you. Anonbridie (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:47, 22 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I removed the paragraph for being original research and lacking reliable sources. Youtube videos, musicians' personal websites, and internet forums are not reliable sources. Editor has stated their goal of advocacy for underground artists on their user page. Abierma3 (talk) 16:50, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

What is a notable source? you guys are nazis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anonbirdie (talk • contribs) 17:32, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Picture of Fetty Wap
I know this is nit-picking, but can we get a new picture for him? The current picture used in the article is very blurry. Alex of Canada (talk) 08:14, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just modified 4 external links on Trap music. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121103061941/http://motherboard.vice.com/2012/6/11/quit-screwing-with-trap-music-an-interview-with-houston-born-producer-l%C5%8Dtic--2 to http://motherboard.vice.com/2012/6/11/quit-screwing-with-trap-music-an-interview-with-houston-born-producer-l%C5%8Dtic--2
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130225214033/http://magazine.topman.com/category/ctrl-music/trap-music-the-definitive-guide/ to http://magazine.topman.com/category/ctrl-music/trap-music-the-definitive-guide/
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.complex.com/music/2012/10/real-trap-sht-the-commodification-of-southern-raps-drug-fueled-subgenre/page/2
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140819130934/http://www.earmilk.com/2013/02/11/all-trap-music-mini-mix/comments to http://www.earmilk.com/2013/02/11/all-trap-music-mini-mix/comments

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RfC
Propose splitting — Trap music into:
 * Trap music (hip hop)
 * Trap music (EDM)

Relaunching a 2014 proposal which seemed to have consensus but without anyone carrying out the split. Propose splitting Trap music into Trap music (hip hop) and Trap music (EDM). Rationale below per previous proposer. — Za  wl  16:50, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

The current article really deals with two separate music genres, sharing the same name. As shown by the sources on the page, EDM trap is a genre, originating from the hip hop version of trap music and other EDM genres. Even though they are described in separate sections, certain aspects are confusing. For example the current version of the article lists both southern hip hop and dubstep as origins of trap music. The first is true for the hip hop version, and the second is true for the EDM version, but putting the two together is misleading.

Having two separate articles will clarify all the confusion that has been going on, and will provide better grounds for developing each of the subjects. So I propose to split the article into Trap music (hip hop) and Trap music (EDM) (or similarly titled), and use the current page as disambiguation for the two.
 * You shouldn't need a full WP:RFC for this; have a discussion by all means, but WP:SPLIT suggests using one of the splitting templates on the article. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 17:55, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I chose to start the RfC because it gets more participants than a regular split discussion which would only be seen by watchlisters. — Za  wl  18:02, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It would get listed in two subcategories of . -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:49, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I say move forward with the split process. No need to discuss really, as there seems to be consensus to split for a few years now. Abierma3 (talk) 00:19, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Redirect to main dab
I think this article should redirect to Trap since it's currently acting as a second disambiguation page. What do you say? — Za  wl  11:24, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * It's not a disambig. There's going to be many cases where sources are ambiguously referring to both terms and linking to one over the other will constitute WP:SYNTH. It's reasonable to have a broad concept article that consolidates the overlap in the styles.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 12:08, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I would be careful having 3 articles on trap. We had a similar mess with an article titled garage music a long while ago. Nowadays we have garage music as a redirect to a parent disambiguation page and Garage house and UK garage as articles. Any ambiguous source cases as described above would link to garage house as that was around first (early UK speed garage came out of NY house and organ house records played at +8). Similarly any sources discussing trap which discuss both trap (hip hop) and trap (electronic) should link to trap (hip hop), as that was around first and the electronic style came out of that. Personally, I think a better approach would be to have one section in the trap (hip hop) article on the electronic developments, with a "more information" link to the EDM article, i.e. treating the new article as a content fork. The two subgenres are not completely disconnected from each other, only having the same name by coincidence, though it may sound like they do now. And in that case trap music redirecting to trap would be okay too. – filelakeshoe (t / c) <big style="font-family: webdings;">&#xF0F6; 15:16, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I think maybe the article should have been left alone, and that Trap music (EDM) should be merged back into a section similar to how Vocal surf is integrated into Surf music.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:03, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * There is consensus to split the page, your disagreement alone is not enough to justify a merge back. — Za  wl  17:05, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * No one is denying there isn't already a consensus--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:17, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Care to explain how the split wasn't done "correctly"? — Za  wl  17:18, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * and FYI, the page wasn't moved first to avoid breaking thousands of incoming links. — Za  wl  17:49, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 6 February 2018
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Withdrawn by requester; procedural close. — Za  wl  06:48, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Trap music → Trap music (hip hop) – see Talk:Trap music Ilovetopaint (talk) 16:57, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). --  Alex TW 17:26, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Pages were split accordingly. Requester is doing things unilaterally without discussion. — Za  wl  17:15, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * see WP:CUTPASTE – splits are not suppose to be "cut and paste" into two articles, but rather one article is moved and another is created --Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:20, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't see how a split can be done without cut and paste (a move certainly) Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:22, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, don't need to do two cut and pastes, but one at-least. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:23, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Let me rephrase: a section of Trap music was cut and paste to Trap music (EDM). After that, Trap music should have been moved to Trap music (hip hop) in order to retain page history. This was not done. Instead, Trap music was redirected to Trap music (hip hop), which was 90% copy and pasted from the original article.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * why opposed to that? Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:28, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * A histmerge of trap music to trap music (hip hop) would solve the page history issue and Ilovetopaint made it seem like they were doing a cut-and-paste and not initially providing a clearer explanation before this thread. I recommend a withdrawal of this RM so a histmerge can be done to quickly resolve the issue without having to wait 7 days. — Za  wl  17:45, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose, WP:TWODABS situation with a likely primary topic in the historically more significant longstanding genre. It does readers no good to take them to a disambiguation page, when the disambiguation function can be carried out with a hatnote. bd2412  T 21:54, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmm, it wasn't a twodabs but a redirect or atleast that was what seems to be done.. Galobtter (pingó mió) 22:00, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, but if it was split, it would be a twodabs with a clear primary topic. bd2412  T 03:02, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with here. Trap music (hip hop) is an unnecessary disambiguated article title due to the fact that it is the primary topic. While trap music (EDM) was rightfully split from the original article, the remaining content should not be renamed to trap music (hip hop). A hatnote to trap music (EDM) would prevent unnecessarily disambiguating the primary topic. Abierma3 (talk) 04:17, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The (hip hop) disambiguator is needed to distinguish the two trap articles. Readers who expect to find the EDM version may not feel comfortable seeing another genre at the main page. The EDM trap is derived from the Hip hop trap but they are not the same or even near. It is not clear that the former genre primary topic because the latter is just as important and relevant. — Za  wl  06:45, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose This is WP:UNDUE. The edits are extremely disruptive, and I don't know how one would decipher the difference between "hip-hop" and "EDM" trap when BOTH are influenced by EDM and trap.  Aleccat  21:27, 7 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Requesting withdrawal and histmerge --Ilovetopaint (talk) 00:32, 8 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose rename of trap music to trap music (hip hop). Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, "trap music (hip hop)" is an unnecessary disambiguated article title. Since the hip hop subgenre trap music is the primary topic for "Trap Music" then we should retain this article title and simply put a hatnote for trap music (EDM). Abierma3 (talk) 04:02, 8 February 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

EDM trap
If hip hop trap is going to stay here then the EDM trap article should move to something else to avoid confusion, like maybe EDM trap? — Za  wl  10:00, 8 February 2018 (UTC)