Talk:Treaties between Rome and Carthage

Translation from the Italian
Over the past couple of days I've translated the entire article from the Italian (Trattati Roma-Cartagine). I'm currently going back over it to try to make it read better in English. My Italian's pretty poor, so I'm not entirely sure I've caught everything, and would greatly appreciate anybody that speaks Italian making sure I haven't left out something important, or misinterpreted the original. On the other hand, the Italian original has a lot of extra information and some things that read a lot like OR or opinion, and I've been trying to cut that out. Again, any help appreciated. &mdash;Ryan McDaniel 14:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm a native Italian, so I'll give a try. BTW, I've noted one of the two maps in the Italian article has not been placed in the translation; why did you decide it was better not to put it?--Aldux 15:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * See discussion below on maps, but basically I thought that although they convey useful information, the maps as drawn didn't really live up to the Wikipedia standard. If I have some time this weekend, I'll try to draw better ones to replace them. &mdash;Ryan McDaniel 16:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, by the way, for taking the time to look it over. Rude of me not to have said so at once.  :-)  &mdash;Ryan McDaniel 17:01, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Aldux, thanks for the assist. However, I'd like to keep some of the unnecessary parts out of the translation. I don't think it helps this article to know that the Carthaginians brought their god Melqart with them, for example. (If they believed that Melqart had told them to fight the Romans, maybe, but it doesn't seem to contribute anything.) Does that make sense, or am I just ranting? &mdash;Ryan McDaniel 20:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem, don't ever be afraid of contradicting me, or of doubting of my edits; while I am, as I said, a native Italian, my English isn't so brilliant, and I agree on your objections.--Aldux 00:04, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Maps
The maps on the Italian article are okay, but could definitely be better. Eventually I'll get around to making some, but if anyone else has or knows of better maps to use right away, that would be great. &mdash;Ryan McDaniel 14:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Another Treaty
According to M. Cary in the Journal of Roman Studies,pg. 71 of the 1919 edition, there was also another treaty in 343BC that was left out by Polybius either because it was unflattering to Rome or because it was lost somewhere in the disorganized Roman archives. However, the treaty was mentioned by Philinus and its context by Livy. Yet, I am not certain why Cary does not mention the treaty of 509BC, which is mentioned by Polybius. I don't know if this helps anyone, but I thought I might say something. Saepe Stultus 03:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Copy edit in progress
I have been copy editing this article over several days, and will use this space to copy quotes that I worked into the text, for future use here or inclusion in WikiQuotes. A big thanks to the guys at WP:PNT who helped translate the Greek quotations.
 * I have completed the copy edit. If you have any questions feel free to drop me a note at my talk page! - Samuel  Tan  10:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

From "First treaty 509 BC"

 * ...it is of the time of Lucius Junius Brutus and Marcus Horatius Pulvillus, the first consuls [...]. These events were twenty-eight years before the passage of Xerxes into Greece.  We have transcribed the most precise interpretation possible.
 * (Polybius, Histories, III, 22)

Greek text of treaty

 * Γίνονται τοιγαροῦν συνθῆκαι Ῥωμαίοις καί Καρχηδονίοις πρῶται, κατὰ Λεύκιον Ἰούνιον Βροῦτον καὶ Μάρκον Ὡράτιον, τοὺς πρώτους κατασταθέντας ὑπάτους... ταῦτα δ΄ἔστι πρότερα τῆς Ξέρξου διαβάσεως εἰς τὴν Ἑλλάδα τριάκοντ΄ἔτεσι λείπουσι δυεῖν. ἃς καθ ὅσον ἦν δυνατὸν ἀκριβέστατα διερμηνεύσαντες ἡμεῖς ὑπογεγράφαμεν.[...]. ἐπὶ τοῖσδε φιλίαν εἶναι Ῥωμαίοις καὶ τοῖς Ῥωμαίων σύμμαχοις καὶ Καρχηδονίοις καὶ τοῖς Καρχηδονίων σύμμαχοις μὴ πλεῖν 'Ρωμαίους μηδὲ τοὺς Ῥωμαίων συμμάχους ἐπέκεινα τοῦ Καλοῦ ἀκρωτερίου, ἐὰν μὴ ὑπὸ χειμῶνος ἢ πολεμίων ἀναγχασθῶσιν ἐὰν δέ τις βίᾳ κατενεχθῇ, μὴ ἐξέστω αὐτῷ μηδὲν ἀγοράζειν μηδὲ λαμβάνειν πλὴν ὅσα πρὸς πλοίου ἐπισκευὴν ἢ πρὸς ἱερά, ἐν πέντε δ'ἡμέραις ἀποτρεχέτω. Τοῖς δὲ κατ'ἐμπορίαν παραγινομένοις μηδὲν ἔστω τέλος πλὴν ἐπὶ κήρκι ἢ γραμματεῖ. Ὅσα δ' ἂν τούτων παρόντων πραθῇ, δημοσίᾳ πίστει ὀφειλέσθω τῷ ἀποδομένῳ, ὅσα δ΄ἂν ἢ ἐν Λιβύῃ ἢ ἐν Σαρδόνι πραθῇ. Ἐὰν Ῥωμαίων τις εἰς Σικελίαν παραγίγνεται, ἧς Καρχηδονίοι ἐπάρχουσι, ἴσα ἔστω τὰ Ῥωμαίων πάντα. Καρχηδόνιοι δὲ μὴ άδικείτωσαν δῆμον Ἀρδεατῶν, Ἀντιατῶν, Λαρεντίνων, Κιρκαιιτῶν, Ταρρακινιτῶν, μηδ'ἄλλον μηδένα Λατίνων, ὅσοι ἂν ὑπήκοοι ἐὰν ὡς πολέμιοι εἰς τὴν χώραν εἰσελθῶσιν, ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ μὴ ἐννυκτερευέτωσαν.
 * (Polybius, Histories, III, 22)

Translation

 * ''The first treaty between Rome and Carthage was made in the year of Lucius Junius Brutus and Marcus Horatius, the first Consuls appointed after the expulsion of the kings, by which men also the temple of Jupiter Capitolinus was consecrated. This was twenty-eight years before the invasion of Greece by Xerxes.
 * ''Of this treaty I append a translation, as accurate as I could make it. [...].


 * ''"There shall be friendship between the Romans and their allies, and the Carthaginians and their allies, on these conditions:


 * ''"Neither the Romans nor their allies are to sail beyond the Fair Promontory, unless driven by stress of weather or the fear of enemies. If any one of them be driven ashore he shall not buy or take aught for himself save what is needful for the repair of his ship and the service of the gods, and he shall depart within five days.


 * ''"Men landing for traffic shall strike no bargain save in the presence of a herald or town-clerk. Whatever is sold in the presence of these, let the price be secured to the seller on the credit of the state--that is to say, if such sale be in Libya or Sardinia.


 * ''"If any Roman comes to the Carthaginian province in Sicily he shall enjoy all rights enjoyed by others. The Carthaginians shall do no injury to the people of Ardea, Antium, Laurentium, Circeii, Tarracina, nor any other people of the Latins that are subject to Rome.


 * ''"From those townships even which are not subject to Rome1 they shall hold their hands; and if they take one shall deliver it unharmed to the Romans. They shall build no fort [p. 186] in Latium; and if they enter the district in arms, they shall not stay a night therein."

Implications
Titus Livy reported:


 * Cum Graecis a Camillo nulla memorabilis gesta res; nec illi tera, nec romano mari bellator erat. [...] Cuius populi ea cuiusque gentis classis fuerit nihil certi est. Maxime Siciliae fuisse tyrannos crederim...


 * ''Nothing worth recording took place between Camillus and the Greeks; they were no fighters on land and the Romans could not fight on the sea. [...] To what Greek state or nationality that fleet belonged is a matter of uncertainty; I think it most likely that it belonged to the Tyrant of Sicily [...]
 * (Titus Livy, History of Rome from its foundation (Ab Urbe condita libri), VII, 26)


 * Et cum carthaginiensibus legatis romae foedus ictum, cum amicitiam et societatem petentes venissent


 * ''A treaty was concluded between Rome and Carthage; the latter city had sent envoys to ask for a friendly alliance.
 * (Titus Livy, History of Rome from its foundation (Ab Urbe condita libri), VII, 27)

Greek text of treaty

 * ἐπὶ τοῖσδε φιλίαν εἶναι Ῥωμαίοις καὶ τοῖς Ῥωμαίων συμμάχοις καὶ Καρχηδονίων καὶ Τυρίων καὶ Ἰτυκαίων δήμῳ καὶ τοῖς τούτων συμμάχοις. τοῦ Καλοῦ ἀκρωτηρίου, Μαστίας Ταρσηίου, μὴ λῄζεσθαι ἐπέκεινα Ῥωμαίουω μηδ' ἐμπορεύεσθαι μηδὲ πόλιν τινὰ μὴ οὖσαν ὑπήκοον Ῥωμαίοις, τὰ χρήματα καὶ τοὺς ἄνδρας ἐχέτωσαν, τὴν δὲ πόλιν άποδιδότωσαν. ἐὰν δέ τινες Καρχηδονίων λάβωσί τινας, πρὸς οὓς εἰρήνη μέν ἐστιν ἔγγραπτος Ῥωμαίοις, μὴ ὑποτάττονται δέ τι αὐτοῖς, μὴ καταγέτωσαν εἰς τοὺς Ῥωμαίων λιμένας, ἐὰν δὲ καταχθέντος ἐπιλάβηται ὁ Ῥωμαίοις, ἀφιέσθω. ὡσαύτως δὲ μηδ᾿ οἱ Ῥωμαῖοι ποιείτωσαν. Ἂν ἔκ τινος χώρας, ἧς Καρχηδόνιοι ἐπάρχουσιν, ὕδωρ ἢ ἐφόδια λάβῃ ὁ Ῥωμαῖος, μετὰ τούτων τῶν ἐφοδίων μὴ ἀδικείτω μηδένα πρὸς οὓς εἰρήνη καὶ φιλία ἐστὶ Καρκηδονίοις. ὡσαύτως δὲ μηδ᾿ ὁ Καρκηδόνιος ποιείτω. εἰ δέ, μὴ ἰδίᾳ μεταπορευέσθω. ἐὰν δέ τις τοῦτο ποιήσῃ, δημόσιον γινέσθω τὸ ἀδίκημα. Ἐν Σαρδόνι καὶ Λιβύῃ μηδεὶς Ῥωμαίων μήτ᾿ ἐμπορευέσθω μήτε πόλιν κτιζέτω, (...) εἰ μὴ ἕως τοῦ ἐφόδια λαβεῖν ἢ πλοῖον ἐπισκευάσαι. ἐὰν δὲ χειμὼν κατενέγχῃ, ἐν πένθ᾿ ἡμέραις ἀποτρεχέτω. Ἐν Σικελίᾳ ἧς Καρχηδόνιοι ἐπάρχουσι καὶ ἐν Καρχηδόνι πάντα καὶ ποιείτω καὶ πωλείτω ὅσα καὶ τῷ πολίτῃ ἔξεστιν. ὡσαύτως δὲ καὶ ὁ Καρχηδόνιος ποιείτω ἐν Ῥώμῃ.

Translation

 * ''There shall be friendship between the Romans and their allies, and the Carthaginians, Tyrians, and township of Utica, on these terms: The Romans shall not maraud, nor traffic, nor found a city east of the Fair Promontory, Mastia, Tarseium. If the Carthaginians take any city in Latium which is not subject to Rome, they may keep the prisoners and the [p. 187] goods, but shall deliver up the town. If the Carthaginians take any folk, between whom and Rome a peace has been made in writing, though they be not subject to them, they shall not bring them into any harbours of the Romans; if such an one be so brought ashore, and any Roman lay claim to him,1 he shall be released. In like manner shall the Romans be bound towards the Carthaginians.


 * ''If a Roman take water or provisions from any district within the jurisdiction of Carthage, he shall not injure, while so doing, any between whom and Carthage there is peace and friendship. Neither shall a Carthaginian in like case. If any one shall do so, he shall not be punished by private vengeance, but such action shall be a public misdemeanour.


 * ''In Sardinia and Libya no Roman shall traffic nor found a city; he shall do no more than take in provisions and refit his ship. If a storm drive him upon-those coasts, he shall depart within five days.


 * ''In the Carthaginian province of Sicily and in Carthage he may transact business and sell whatsoever it is lawful for a citizen to do. In like manner also may a Carthaginian at Rome.
 * (Polybius, Histories, III, 24)

From "Fourth treaty 279 BC"

 * Ἐν αἷς τὰ μὲ ἄλλα τηροῦσι πάντα κατὰ τὰς ὑπαρχούσας ὁμολογίας, πρόσχειται δὲ τούτοις τὰ ὑπογεγραμμένα. Ἐὰν συμμαχίαν ποιῶνται πρὸς Πύρρον ἔγγραπτον ποιείσθωσαν ἀμφότεροι, ἵνα ἐξῇ βοηθεῖν ἀλλήλοις ἐν τῇ τῶν πολεμουμένων χώρᾳ, ὁπότεροι δ᾿ ἂν χρείαν ἔχωσι τῆς βοηθείας, τὰ πλοῖα παρεχέτωσαν Καρκηδόνιοι καὶ εἰς τὴν ὁδὸν καὶ εἰς τὴν ἄφοδον, τὰ δὲ ὀψώνια τοῖς αὑτῶν ἑκάτεροι. Καρκηδόνιοι δὲ καὶ κατὰ θάλατταν Ῥωμαίοις βοηθείτωσαν, ἂν χρεία ᾖ. Τὰ δὲ πληρώματα μηδεὶς ἀναγχαζέτω ἐκβαίνειν ἀκουσίως.


 * ''This treaty contains the same provisions as the two earlier treaties with these additional clauses:
 * ''If they make a treaty of alliance with Pyrrhus, the Romans or Carthaginians shall make it on such terms as [p. 188] not to preclude the one giving aid to the other, if that one's territory is attacked.
 * ''If one or the other stand in need of help, the Carthaginians shall supply the ships, whether for transport or war; but each people shall supply the pay for its own men employed on them.
 * ''The Carthaginians shall also give aid by sea to the Romans if need be; but no one shall compel the crews to disembark against their will.
 * (Polybius, Histories, III, 25)