Talk:Triad (organized crime)

Deleted "5 Common Ancestors"
TRIADS TERRITORY DOES NOT CONSIST ( KOREA OR KOREAN PENINSULA). NORTH KOREA KIM JUNG UN STATE CONTROL TRIAD. NO TERRITORY, NO FOOTHOLD. IN SOUTH KOREA LOCAL MAFIA KICKED OUT ALL CHINESE RELATED MAFIA BUSINESS.

I deleted the "5 common ancestors" from the section on the oaths, as it seems the listing of two of the ancestors, "Kok Max" and "Long Dong", was an attempt at humour.

''After entering the Han gates I shall be loyal and faithful and shall endeavour to overthrow Ch'ing and restore Ming by coordinating my efforts with those of my sworn brethren even though my brethren and I may not be in the same professions. Our common aim is to avenge our Five Ancestors (Kok Max, Long Dong, Gee Seng, Choom Beng and Bong Lai).''

--Zegoma beach (talk) 18:33, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Triad oath language
Language used in Triad oath's section was misleading. Referenced full text, probably incorrectly, so please correct it. It was never a strictly religious society, but it had religious overtones and very strong Buddhist influences and to a lesser degree Taoist as well. See "Ritual and Mythology of the Chinese Triads" by Barend J. Ter Haar. This was probably lost after the 1911 Republican Revolution when it started leaning towards organized crime, but not being a triad member, I can't tell you. 128.8.210.42 11:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)jk


 * Is it still a religious society? When did it lost this? -- Error 01:59, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Government stance cannot be unknown
Removed this


 * Whether that was the government stance or merely a personal opinion remains unknown.

I don't understand how whether or not something is official or unofficial can be unknown. User:Roadrunner

Dealing with triad problems in school
Last few sentences feel a bit POV to be honest...

incorrect grammar
The tense starts in the present and ends in the past in the firsts sentence of the activities overseas section. I will change 'Currently, Triad activities have been active' to 'Currently, Triads are active '  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.247.11 (talk) 10:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

incorrect character translation
the article translates 3 characters as 'Tian Di Hui', they are, in fact, 'Tian Tu Hui' (although the meaning 'Heaven and Earth Society' still applies.).
 * Fixed.Bill 19:32, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've seen it romanized (Wade-Giles) as "T'ien Ti Hui". Jean Chesneaux, "Secret Societies in China" 128.8.210.42 11:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)jk

grammar
After the Mob in Hong Kong in 1956, the government actively enforced the laws that restricted and diminished the triad activities in Hong Kong.


 * This sentance needs something, but I don't know enough to fill the holes Sam Spade 05:49, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

''School violence is not a new issue. The most recent event which stirred much public concern was the video clip that recorded a student being beaten up by 11 fellow classmates. And just two weeks ago, a student in Tin Shui Wai stabbed a 17-year-old with a pair of scissors.''

It strikes me as odd that a Wikipedia user would say "2 weeks ago", knowing that to be unsatisfactory for the reader. It strikes me as possible copyvio. Mike Church 05:22, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

Removed the following unsubstantiated claims:
 * The Triads have worked with the CIA in creating the drug network. The creation of the Golden Triangle as a source for drugs was a joint CIA-Triad operation.

Watcher 06:47, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Removing pending confirmation
"With the size of membership numbered in hundreds of thousands, it is estimated that about 5% of Hong Kong's male adult population holds some kind of Triad membership, although that figure cannot be verified."

Where does this figure come from? WhisperToMe 23:33, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * "although that figure cannot be verified"


 * Ironic. --Ruthless4Life 05:48, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

"Sadly, however, police members are often leading people of quite a number of cases that arouse citizens' awareness. These policemen, often being senior officers ranking as high as Senior Superintendent (SSP), are believed to have close relationship with seniorities of the triads. They provide notifications prior to raids or snap checks (of the triads' businesses) in return for their own interests, primarily money; Police corruption plays a role to the triad's notoriety." While cases of corruption are doubt true, without examples this is a problematic statement. It would be best to clean this up with citable examples. Statement edited slightly pending finding cases of police corruption.

--Dagayute 01:48, 28th July 2006 (UTC)

not only HK
The Triad is not only active in Hong Kong but also in Taiwan and mainland China and probably other places but certainly not only in Hong Kong

The article is very confusing, the subject is "triad organisations" but immediately jumps to Hong Kong in particular and asserts mainland Chinese criminal organisations are not triads. (there naturally being no other article covering them)

It almost seems that someone out there wants people to believe the triads didn't come from or are tied to mainland China.

A Triad usually doesnt mean a Gang that are mainly Chinese, to become a triad there are certain rituals to be met before you are being joined in the Triad Gang. The ones in Mainland China probably have different type of ritual and are just being called simply ruffian gangs. Triads usually have their own rules of dealing a business deal with a rival clan and their own way of fighting turf wars. Triad strongest base is in Macao and Hong Kong, it is difficult to maintain a proper strong triad gang in Mainland China, since there are too many people who got their own rules or scattered gang. Nobody want to be just a mere soldier when they can become the "Dragon head". Taiwan triads usually are created by Hong Kong or Macao citzens who settled down in Taiwan because they need to escape from the local police and since Taiwan is close to China.

Factual question
Were the triads (or the Triad) in the beginning a single society or were there many triads all along? This would help me to decide where shoud the word 'triad' be written with a capital T and where not.


 * The term triad refers to a class of criminal organisations, not named after persons, places, organisations, etc. This will be rectified in subsequent edits. Mission9801 09:21, 20 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Historically they were a single society founded by five Shaolin monks (if you believe their "creation myth"), and initially there was just one "Society of Heaven, Earth and Humans," or the Triad. However, the secret societies had a tendency to form branches and the Triad became the Triads which became a class of organizations.  Chesneaux, "Secret Societies in China".

Triad symbol?
In the article Social problems in Chinatown I found this image. Is it a genuine Triad symbol? I find it a bit odd, as if made up. On the other hand there are occurrences outside the wikepedia. If someone knows that it is genuine it could be included into the article or if not removed from the Wikipedia. --Silvestre Zabala 11:59, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

"Illegality" of information
The article as of now contains this sentence: "Note: It is illegal to describe the formalities for initiation into a triad in Hong Kong." I assume this means it is illegal, in Hong Kong, to describe the initiation; the sentence structure at present makes it unclear. Wikipedia is not subject to Hong Kong law, and I think we should describe the formalities of initiation. Vivacissamamente 22:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, who exactly deems it illegal to to discuss triad initiations? Is this police authorities of Hong Kong proper or of the People's Republic? That question should be addressed as the well to complete the intended meaning. Shadowrun 06:15, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Exactly. In any case, it is likely that wikipedia does subject itself to Chinese law, but this has nothing to do with us.  If the foundation gets a bee in its butt about some illegal info, that's their issue, which their well situated to deal with.  Our purpose is to tell the truth and write good articles.  In any case, its certainly not illegal in most areas, so the above questions certainly bare(bear?) clarification.--Δζ (talk) 17:29, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

title
By the "principle of least surprise", at Triad, you should expect the counterpart of de:Trias (Religion) (related to trinity), or a disambiguation page; I suggest this article should be at Triad (China) or similar. Also, I do not understand "The term does not carry capital letters" in the intro. Presumably, this is intended to mean simply that "triad" in this meaning is not capitalized? dab (&#5839;) 09:10, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Sources required
Many statements in this article require a proper citation. Please refer to Verifiability, No original research, our official policies, in particular "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who has made the edit. Editors should therefore provide references. Any edit lacking a source may be removed. If you doubt the truthfulness of an unsourced statement, remove it to the talk page." Refer to Citing sources on how to cite sources. Shawnc 12:58, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Chronological error
This sentence does not make sense and/or is unclear. Does anyone know the actual facts or can rearrange this to make it clearer?

Migration to Hong Kong

When the Communist Party of China took power in 1949, Mainland China was put under strict law enforcement and organized crime diminished. Triad members then migrated south to the then-British crown colony of Hong Kong for the continuance of their business. By 1931, there were eight main triad groups and they had divided Hong Kong up into geographic areas and ethnic groups that each group was responsible for controlling.

Do you have to be chinese to join?

Chinese wonderful wording
Although the registered date for triads is 1760 with the rise of an organisation, later on (the next paragraph) 1910 becomes several centuries later. This is how a legend is born, right?

^^^

Difference is in the transition
Difference is in the transition from secret society/underground movement to criminal organization. The distinction should be clear.

WikiProject
Please see WikiProject Organized crime (proposed) for details on this possible collaborative effort. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MadMax (talk • contribs)

Shian'Lia Xian
Why was this information ommitted from the article? I can see the lack of substantial citation or information leading to it being questioned, but it was intriguing enough to add as long as the proper comments were made to say as much. Shadowrun 06:51, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Written by fanboys
This entire article reads like an organised crime apology. Low on fact, high on opinion and rationalization.

193.110.85.248The film big trouble in little china, although very fictional shows triads gruops and shows of force and has another gruop called tongs and is mayeb worth a mention under triads in films section193.110.85.248


 * Yeah. For example if the Triad's livelihood depend on counterfeiting watches and clothes, then they must be pretty hard-up. I mean would they spend a load of money setting up watches and clothes factories, only for them to sell for $1 in a US flea-market? Seriously, would the Triads really go into these sort of low mark-up manufacturing, which requires large areas of fixed space that could be easily raided? As any tourist in Thailand would tell you, a fake Rolex can be picked up for under US$5. 81.154.27.213 (talk) 01:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Money
HK$100 (very roughly, 15 canadian dollars), is the canadian dollar the currency of wikipedia now? Which do you use, I have only seen U.S. dollars as standard, though i might be biased being a stupid ignorant American.

Fair use rationale for Image:As Tears Go By.jpg
Image:As Tears Go By.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Article merges
I was looking for information specifically relating to the 14K Triad and now find that the article has been merged into this one, which gives me only generic information related to no specific group, which is absolutely useless to me. Good work on allowing bureaucracy and mergist policy to interfere with legitimate articles which would actually benefit users of this project. 203.220.43.126 06:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Speedy delete
Getting rid of the section on those "alleged" to have triad ties. ''By whom? Your saying it is not good enough''...Mostly living people, who deserve the courtesy of having these things sourced. I have heard the things about Sun and Chiang before, and they are obviously dead. Someone should integrate this information into other parts of the article, with proper sources.67.85.178.110 04:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Wrong article name
As per Disambiguation guidelines, the name of this article shouldn't be "Triad". Instead, the disambiguation page should be named that, and link from there to this article, which should be more specific about its subject. The term triad, of course, didn't originate from the underground societies this article talks about, and in fact refers to many other things, many of which are more relevant, popular, etc. for the term "triad". Hence, I will move the page name "Triad" to the disambiguation page, and replace the name of this article with "Triad (underground societies)", which you can easily replace with a more suitable name if you see it convenient. Thank you. Kreachure 20:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Proper term for rankings
Rankings like 49 translate directly to four-nine as opposed to forty-nine, does anyone know the proper term? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.140.90.197 (talk) 22:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

rofl @ exposing triad secrets, way to break your oaths —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Triad Oath
In the oath, what is the meaning of being killed by five thunderbolts vs. killed by myriads of swords, and is "myriads" a better translation vs. just "myriad"?
 * I want to know this too. Are the five thunderbolts some sort of punishment carried out that was lost in translation? Klosterdev (talk) 09:41, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

黑社会
The best translation for is actually "criminal underworld", it is not equivalent to Triad. I have removed it from first paragraph. --Voidvector (talk) 16:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Could 'Black Society'' really mean the 'Invisible' or 'Difficult to See' Societies? 81.154.27.213 (talk) 01:53, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I've watched a few Hong Kong gangster movies and I've never heard of 三合會. Perhaps 三合會 is not as common a term for organized crime, or a more historical term. Even more interesting, mandrintools dictionary definition for 三合會 is "Black society".  黑社會 is a more common phrase for Triad, and if you look up Triad in Google Translate, you get 黑社會.  I would suggest putting 黑社會 back in the first paragraph. 75.159.234.226 (talk) 20:23, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Leaders in software piracy!?
That's a ridiculous claim. Virtually anyone who is computer-savvy is capable of software piracy, and most piracy groups are usually a group of young hackers that aren't bound by geography or ideology outside of wanting to crack software. Even if a certain group wanted to become a leader, it would be virtually impossible considering the massive distribution of internet access and the sheer number of people that are capable of the same activities. An "internet monopoly" in any industry is virtually impossible. I say that this part of the article should be removed if it doesn't have any sources. 74.56.236.39 (talk) 02:19, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, leaders in software piracy - for profit. Are you making a profit from downloading from the net? No. Bootleg DVDs sold on the streets of China do make a profit, and are printed illegally. -98.149.133.255 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 20:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC).

Considering software piracy runs more rampant in China than the rest of the world combined, it's not that far fetch now is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.50.118.206 (talk) 15:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Sources and verifcation of Triad and other "Black Facts"
Can anybody tell me how the "sources", "facts" and "references" about secret organisations such as The Mafia, Triad, Chinese Intelligence organizations...etc are properly "cited" and "verified"?

If we have a "mole" ie informer/member/investigator/spy who held the golden truth and who like to edit Wiki :-) then, must we scrap the info as unreliable? Hell, they are playing with their job and perhaps their lives, and i don't think anyone of them is insane enough to tell the whole nine yards of "where, when, how, why, what..!"

I suggest Wiki Editors relax the criteria in these cases, and a disclaimer of "UNVERIFICABLE/UNABLE TO VERIFY INFORMATION" in front of questionable contribution, or a link to such section (normally undisplayed). I don't think this will turn the articles in questions into rumor mills...If there is smoke, there must be a fire somewhere.Skepticus (talk) 14:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Disagree. There is often smoke without fire, contrary to the popular saying, and Wikipedia is not the place for smoke.  Remember that it is fine for us to cite published works that give opinions and estimates.  Just don't put our own thoughts or original research in here.


 * Try this reference and I'm sure you'll be able to improve the article with citable material. Earthlyreason (talk) 05:44, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Preventing Editing
May I suggest locking this article??

As you may have noticed, the Triad oaths have been vandalized.Si lapu lapu (talk) 01:27, 16 December 2008 (UTC)Si Lapu Lapu

Demographics
"It was estimated that in the 1950s, there were 300,000 Triad members in Hong Kong."

Further verification is needed for the above statement, as this puts Triad members at around 12-13% of the population of Hong Kong in 1950 (see demographics of Hong Kong). Tang, S., "A Modern History of Hong Kong", (London, I. B. Tauris, 2007) p. 127, puts the population at the time of Japanese surrender in 1945 at 5/600,000, and (p. 167) at 2,500,000 in 1955. Thus an assertion that 300,000 were resident in Hong Kong is dubious although, of course, I cannot demonstrate that this is not the case. At least it should be stated clearly that this is a claim by TIME magazine, derived from an article which is apparently about a T-shirt contest.

Further the assertions as to gang membership are un-sourced and hence I see no reason why they should be taken seriously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.8.186.238 (talk) 01:23, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Text removed (The current Mountain Dragon)
Another editor has removed an unreferenced paragraph which was added by an IP user. It reads:
 * ''The current Mountain Dragon of the secret society in the Asia-Pacific region is Jordan (Hao Zi) who wields influence and power over 120,000 Chinese gangsters.

__meco (talk) 09:14, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

No need to list all these crimes
This list of so many different racketeering crimes associated with triad groups seems pretty excessive to me. I think it'd be sufficient to say something like "Triad groups are associated with a large variety of racketeering crimes, including [name two or three] in the present day." This would need references, too. /ninly(talk) 13:41, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Leader
I just want to get my facts straight about leadership; is the Dragon Head the Godfather of all Triads, or are Dragon Heads bosses of individual Triads? 74.69.214.197 (talk) 05:15, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

"criminal idiots pingu"
I am absolutely confounded by the sentence in this description at the top: "Triad refers to the many branches of criminal idiots pingu based in Hong Kong, ..."

What on earth is 'criminal idiots pingu' supposed to mean!?

Is it griefing?


 * The work of vandals on Wikipedia. Has been reverted. 119.56.125.35 (talk) 16:07, 18 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I want to meet the Vandals operating at Wikipedia! what a great opportunity to learn about a culture believed to have been extinct for centuries!!! and they operate in China now too... Does anyone know if the Visigoths are extant as well? 2602:304:CFD0:6350:3C57:8251:B4A1:E753 (talk) 08:22, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Triad history
http://books.google.com/books?id=A4-cPOVH3moC&pg=PA373#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=jkitOBrsHyUC&pg=PA62#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=HRQZhAFacQoC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Guderyean (talk) 05:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I think my edits were essential as well. Twillisjr (talk) 22:54, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

http://books.google.com/books?id=HRQZhAFacQoC&pg=PA91#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=1Gt4hU9R8sAC&pg=PA77#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://library.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/read/hut-two.pdf

Rajmaan (talk) 00:07, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

TRIAD = 5 Letters
Interesting, in modern times.. TRIAD has 5 letters. Perhaps the rule of "3" is a cover and the world is an epic fail? Twillisjr (talk) 23:14, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Triforce. or are you new here...2602:304:CFD0:6350:3C57:8251:B4A1:E753 (talk) 08:24, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Good source article to use
Officer lifts lid on workings of the underworld by Yvonne Tsui, 16 October, 2009. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darx9url (talk • contribs) 07:34, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Redundancy
Is it not a little redundant to say "organized crime organization"?2001:558:6012:5A:565:ABEA:FCDE:5BBD (talk) 19:19, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Chin Haw/Triad
This page has no factual information to it and should be removed. No citations, no evidence, no one should believe this!!! Cher8 00:35, 14 April 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cher8 (talk • contribs)

36 Oaths
I read through the oaths, and I was interested to see that although every single one of them ended with the offender being "killed by five thunderbolts" or "killed by myriads of swords", etc, there was one single line about 3/4 the way through that simply reads "I must not covet or seek to share any property or cash obtained by my sworn brothers. If I have such ideas I will be killed." No thunderbolts? No swords or knives? Is this one line different for a reason, or did someone just accidentally cut off the end of the sentence? AnnaGoFast (talk) 22:20, 26 April 2016 (UTC)