Talk:Trials of Mana/Archive 1

"Secret of Mana 2"
Someone should add somewhere that on some sites this game is referred to as "Secret of Mana 2"... I don't know where I would put it though.

"Its release was also planned for North America and Europe under the title of Secret of Mana 2" that is total @*$! the origin of that (false and unconfirmed) name - Secret of Mana 2 - is the unofficial German translation patch (based upon the English one) along with the fact that it was often titled the sequel to Secret of Mana by the emulation community, who later adopted the name. SD3 was never announced or planed to be released outside of Japan, because even in Japan it was released towards the end of the SNES lifetime, because of that it was not brought to other countries (also Secret of Evermores development had nothing to do with it, in fact SoE was released in the states (it's a USA/Europe only game) about two weeks before SD3 in Japan, to this day japanese games hit the market in Japan way before thier western counterparts, that connection is another urban legend) and it appears to be rushed as well (for example: if you strike a monster with a special gauge attack or magic it will always' strike back with it's own best attack, in boss battles this might be instant death to all of your three characters, or the almost impossible critical hit).


 * 1) Got any confirming sources for your info? 2) I have not noticed this critical payback to be universal and compulsory. -LichYoshi 12:08, 30 July 2005 (UTC)


 * 1) well for the release just look at the release date in Seiken Densetsu 3 the article and read the Secret of Evermore article (which was developed by an American team that was hired for the sole purpose to create that game and in turn SoE was never translated or released in Japan). as for not being annonced you'll have to understand that I can't link to a website where Square confirms that they never annonced it.
 * The German-patched ROM is the only version of the game that actually has "Secret of Mana 2" on the titlescreen and has appeared as a home made pirate release(s): SNES Central: Pirate Cart - "Secret of Mana 2". what was there first the emulation-sites that called it SoM2 or the German translation patch? the chicken or the egg? I don't know nor do I have anymore prove who used it first, but it sure wasn't Square.
 * 2) just try to fight Lugar in front of the Moontemple, but only with your magic or your special moves (that effect is best visible on enemies that strike back on your entire party with a heavy attack) also the Knights in the Wind Tunnel like pay back using that all enemies whirl attack, the one Duran can learn as well.

Inconsistency
There seems to be a certain inconsistency between pages, but I don't know which one is right. The Secret of Evermore page says has a section about the controversy related to Seiken Densetsu 3. The section says that Secret of Evermore was not released instead of Seiken Densetsu 3. Seiken Densetsu 3 says that they apparently opted in favor of Secret of Evermore instead of Seiken Densetsu 3. I think the Secret of Evermore article has good arguments and I don't think Secret of Evermore was released instead of Seiken Densetsu 3. – DarkEvil 22:53, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * Here's the word that describes the situation: APPARENTLY. If I left that piece of information out, it would be re-inserted into the article anyway, so I tried to make it clear that many fans speculate over that possibility, even if it might not be true. It can always be edited to make clearer that it's pure speculation, of course. --Sn0wflake 23:07, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Animated GIF?
The animated .gif on this page seems to me to be a real eyesore. It's very distracting, especially when a static image of the chart would do just fine. What's more, it's inaccurate -- the second class change happens at level 38, not 36. Can we get rid of it, or at least replace it with a static version? Chrismith 03:59, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd have to say that I agree in part (though with not necessarily with as stong wording). It's good in theory, but yes, I don't think it's appropriate for this page. A static image would be better. I'll see if I can whip one up quickly. -LichYoshi 13:14, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Kanji characters
Not every user's browser readily has the ability to show Kanji characters correctly, and will instead show a garble or a line of '????' followed by the number three, rendering this extra bit of information useless to these visitors. The 'Legend of the Holy Sword 3' is a bit more universal as a result, while also nothing short of a correct translation of the game's Japanese title. For these reasons I would advocate that this English translation of 'Legend of the Holy Sword 3' remains as it is on the page, rather than reverting it back to include the Kanji characters. The main motivation for this is thus the increased userfriendlyness as well as the higher accessability for visitors who don't have an extensive background in Manga and the like.

GoodLuckDie 14:30, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * We're trying to keep these articles somewhat uniform. Why do you (I presume it's you) keep changing SD3 only? Why not discuss this in the main Seiken Densetsu article's talk page, since it contains kanji as well as the rest of the games? ~ Hibana 18:19, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * That's really quite simple Hibana; I've just begun to get involved with this whole Wikipedia thing, so do give me a little time to learn the ropes and the proper procedures. I'm quite likely to follow your advice.  Eventually.
 * Let me show you though what the first sentence of the SD3 page looks like from my browser, under the current setup. You might better understand why I'm so adamant about this then.


 * " Seiken Densetsu 3 (聖剣伝説3) is the third installment of the Seiken Densetsu series, released exclusively in Japan for the Super Famicom. " GoodLuckDie 18:54, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, nobody will try to bite you. Since Media Wiki 1.5, the accepted language is Unicode (reference). Not using the power of Unicode when writing would be wasting physical storage room and, more important, article quality. While it is true some users may not have fonts, it is also true they can be easily installed. It would be like not showing images in articles because some users still use Lynx. -- ReyBrujo 19:22, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Um, where is he worrying? 84.192.125.204 18:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Spell strength vs day/night
''It is a common misconception that magic of one element is weakened on its opposite elemental's day, and that light and dark spells are powered up by fighting during the day (for light) or night (for dark). Actually, all spells do the same amount of damage regardless of the day, unless it is the day for that element.''

Can this be proven, or is this original research? It feels a bit non-neutral to me at the moment. -LichYoshi 02:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Difficulty
Shouldn't there be a mention of the difficulty level in this game? I mean, i have beat Civ 3 on Deity, Killer Instinct (SNES) on impossible/master without losing once and got the special ending, beat Secret of Mana easily, and beat games like Contra with like 10 lives or so. But, of all the games i have played, none are as incredibly frustrating as this one....i mean, the difficulty level is RIDICULOUS! My party died so many times i lost count. Part of it is that during combat mode, sometimes slashes don't seem to "compute", as in, you press the action/A button but your character just looks at the monster. And then, the monsters are incredibly vicious, will hit you several times while on the ground, block almost 30% of your attacks, while the AI helpers almost always die, quickly. At any point in the game (i didn't finish it, the only action/RPG i never finished- got to lv 20 sometime after the class upgrade)the player is probably 5-6 hits away from death. This eases up a tiny bit after the mana stone change, but still i found it alarming how this game would drive me insane. It's probably no coincidence that characters are resurrected every time for free at 1hp.

I literally stopped playing because I thought it was not entertaining anymore. It was borderline masochistic to keep playing. Am i the only one that feels this way? Does this have naything to do with the ROM version i have? ( Charlotte v Carlie, for example)

Dragonlord kfb 16:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have a cartridge version that I imported and don't recall the game being that difficult less the fact I can't read Japanese. If you can cite the game's difficulty with a reliable source, go ahead and add it in. ~ Hibana 22:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem with a lot of these games is that they can be very, very difficult if you play them the wrong way. The trick is to find ways to overcome the problems you encounter, rather than be frustrated by them. Shinobu 10:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I find it difficult at times, but then, shouldn't all video games be? Besides, difficulty is a relative thing: I'd find 10-life Contra or Sid-level Civ quite hard. --LichYoshi 14:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I am trying to find out since, for example, FFI and FFIV when translated (official) into SNES, wonderswan, GBA, they were sometimes 'watered down' in difficulty, for the US player... Thus, I wonder if the translation teams took the liberty of modifying game difficulty for specific ROM versions? Is there any supporting evidence of this? (Hopefully someone has read anything of the sort in the translation forums)

And no, i am not playing this the "wrong way". To overcome the difficulties i am encountering, i would have to use candy, chocolate, etc almost by reflex after every other map screen, or the game should eliminate the 4th monster spellcaster on every fight screen. Neither is a viable choice, so wat do you suggest?Dragonlord kfb 06:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You could try grinding away until you're strong enough for the enemies to be easy. That article mentions MMORPGs but the principle's the same. I didn't find it as hard as you seem to when I played it. Keep the characters with a healthy amount of HP during the battle and stuff, you'll get the hang of it. --WikiSlasher 00:32, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The game is only difficult if you don't know what to do. I've played the translated rom version only, so I don't know if this applies here, but it seems to me that the game is impossible unless you get your class change. On the Ghost Ship is when the game starts getting difficult. On Bucca island, the enemies are almost impossible. The ONLY way to proceed is to level up to 18 around the Dark Priest's village, and then avoid all the monsters as you go through the sea shore cave. Once off the island, you can get your class change, at which point the monsters from then on are quite easy. Myself, I have beaten it a literal 16 times, and it is IMPOSSIBLE without leveling on Bucca. Kelpie K 04:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * NOTE* I accidentally posted the below comment in the wrong location. Sorry.

This is good...i think my problem (as if it were mine) is that i stop playing for extended periods of time...so i don't know/remember what i need to do next...and when i go off exploring to try to figure it out...I get killed almost instantly. Technically, the exploring part fulfills the grinding requirement you mentioned...so it is quite strange for this game to be so damn impossible even after the random walkabouts. XP Progress seems real slow anyway. And no level will save you from the 4th monster off the screen casting spells, or from the player not swinging his sword on your command. At some point it seems i skipped/missed the class change...and admittedly, the game eased up once i did (i remember THAT!) However, the last memory i have of playing this game about 1 year ago was of dying constantly and hypertension. I am going to give it one another run - but i am afraid for my laptop....i might actually break it in frustration...

If i had to grind, i will. But if the game remains hard, i will search for forums documenting the difficulty level. Besides, most of my characters have their key stats like strength and agility greyed out so i will likely not see any improvement in combat from leveling up. What gives? Dragonlord kfb (talk) 17:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Not quite, I have beaten the game in all possible combinations(120 times, 4 extra times for walkthrough writing and 2 for story writing), and some of the times I even class change at the wind mana stone, yet it is even possible to finish the game at lv 12 for all characters, as long as you know what to do, you can do it by skill. MythSearchertalk 17:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Level... 12??!!? Are we talking about the same game, here?! At level 12 you would die in one hit against most of the bosses! Kelpie K 04:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Then don't get hit, isn't it simple? Magic and summons are inevitable but still you can get away with bugs of the game like asking 2nd and 3rd player to cast spells and using items on them when their HP are flashing between 1 and 0.(It will stay on 1 if asked to cast a spell) MythSearchertalk 06:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The wind stone? Is that the GINORMOUS romboid thing in that cave? Where else can you class change? I think i may have taken the most difficult path without even realizing it....Dragonlord kfb (talk) 17:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You can also class change at the mana goddess statue in the holy grounds. BTW, in the Final Fantasy collection book published after FF6, Seiken series was listed as Easy compared to FF as Medium and Saga series as Hard.  MythSearchertalk 17:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Classes list - minutiae or not?
I've noticed Fragnarok's inclusion of a list of all the classes for each character and what they gain as a result. Personally, I think it counts as minutiae and is more GameFAQ's stuff, but I can see some value in the information there. Therefore, I'm unsure if the list is valuable enough to remain in the article (and how I'd rewrite it), if it should be deleted, or if it's more suitable as its own list article. I thought I'd test the waters for a general consensus before I took any action; or if someone else thinks I'm just being silly, do what you will. :) -LichYoshi 09:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

It might be interesting to explain the class changing system and leave one entry of the list in as an example, perhaps with the differences between the classes explained instead of details of each class listed. I agree lists and minute details that have no meaning to someone that didn't play the game don't really fit a WP article. 130.89.228.82 16:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind... I've been making a mistake; clicking the wrong "edit" button. My fault, sorry ^_^ Kelpie K 04:49, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Lise/Riesz
From the official publishing of SD3, the name is spelled as Riesz(3 of the official guide books and the official post card collection.). I will change the article to reflect that. MythSearchertalk 08:14, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Also I think Wisp's Japanese name is Will-o'-the-Wisp, but I'm not sure. Kariteh 08:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, it is a harder case, although it is called Will-o'-the-Wisp(ウィル．オ．ウィスプ) in the plot, the time of the day and item(Wisp's statue) only refer it as Wisp(ウィスプ). MythSearchertalk 09:53, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Wisp seems to be an abreviation then. Kariteh 10:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Neill Corlett up for deletion

 * the person who translated Seiken Densetsu 3 is up for deletion. Articles for deletion/Neill Corlett 209.209.214.5 17:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Reception
I removed the Reception section of the article because, well, it was empty. 142.68.65.141 13:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not empty, it's a stub. Fill it or leave it. Kariteh 14:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Please keep the titbit of info of the three player hack in. It is a very common misconception that the original console version could accept THREE human players. Garysoh (talk) 20:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Errr... Did you actually plug in all three controllers into your SNES(with a controller hub, of course) and press start button on the 2nd and 3rd player controller? Or, do you even OWN the original cartridge?  MythSearchertalk 02:32, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Just try it youself. When I first tried the game many years ago over the SNES, my friends and I were puzzled why we couldn't start the third player. It was then I realised that SD3 was only for 2 human players max. Do a google search for "Seiken Densetsu 3" "3 player" for more evidence. The original article (before I edited it) said the same thing. I just wanted to update the community that it is now possible to play SD3 with 3 players with the patch.Garysoh (talk) 03:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Even if it really needs to be mentioned, it should be somewhere down in the bottom, next to the fan translation section, since the hack cannot change the cartridge system, it can only change the ROM. MythSearchertalk 04:08, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No objection with your proposed restructure. It is just for the sake of flow. The previous paragraph mentioned SD3 as a 2 player game, so it was just appropriate to say right after that it is now possible to play it as a 3 player game. Garysoh (talk) 04:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * a hack is a hack, and if it could not be used on the legal version of the game, then it is just a trivia data. Leaving it in the top seems to be out of flow since it is before the mention of the rom and such and thus I put it below the section of the fan translation, which starts the not quite legal part of the history, and states more thoroughly about the ROM version and such. MythSearchertalk 05:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

"Three player hack - need a source?"
Is a verifiable source really needed since the fact is falsifiable? Just test the ROM with the patch and you will find the truth. This is not a titbit of philosophical info where the truth is clouded; the fact definitely can be verified by any indidivual. Let me cite a bad example: do you need a published source that 5 + 4 = 9? You can test that out yourself, and if it is not true, it is just not true. For such simple falsifiable knowledge, I seriously do not think we need a source. Citing a better example: I believe the information in the article is being verified by players of the game - mostly humble commoners; do we really need a so-called famous expert to verify the information presented in the article? 85.0.51.39 (talk) 23:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem here is, no matter how many people claim it to be false, as long as someone like you that claim it to be true, you can add anything into the article. The citation needed here is not only about the 2 or 3 player in the original game, but a hack that not a lot of people know or could legally use.  So you are talking about telling others to use an illegal emulation software to verify an illegal hacked ROM, hmm, sounds so reasonable that I must ask you to not ask others to try anything illegal.  MythSearchertalk 07:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily illegal, depending on the context; there are legal ways of verification. I am also of the stand that a source is not needed for this fact. News of success have already proliferated in cyberspace, if you will but look. Is a parsimonius authority truly needed? Garysoh (talk) 07:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There are legal ways of verification, but that is not as the above user suggustion which asks readers to download a ROM and check it out. The legal way is to have a verifiable and reliable third party source like a publication with editorial oversight.  see WP:RS and WP:V for what is verifiable and reliable.  It is not verifiable if it could not be verified without actually downloading and testing out the ROM by a wiki user, since that constitutes original research MythSearchertalk 14:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have used the original cartridge to check, a three player game could be easily performed. I am removing the newest edit along with the statement about it being 2 player. The ROM might be also playable with 3 players without the hack, at least the Japanese language one I tested with can be set to all three PCs having the same keyboard buttons and move with the same actions. MythSearchertalk 14:43, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not really following this discussion, but you can read about the 3 player hack here: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/179/ --SkiDragon (talk) 12:14, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * This is not a reliable source. Anyone can create their own web sites stating Game X need a hack Y to perform a N player game, while people with no problem in playing the game without the hack seldom will create a website and say so.  It might be a case of different versions of the ROM being corrupted or mis-coded due to the ROM converting engine being old and does not comply with the original game or something.  There are multiple people reporting it as 3 player possible, while some other reporting it is not.  Since there are no reliable source and is not a main concern of this article, along with other legal problems about copyrights, it should not be in the article until a verifiable, reliable source is given.  If it is such a big issue, and is so much different from the last game, it should also be easily found in other languages especially the original Japanese language sites, yet, no such sites were present in the Japanese language. MythSearchertalk 14:01, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:SD3 image1.gif
Image:SD3 image1.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

HoM relationship
From The series article, it is labeled Heroes of Mana is a prequel of Seiken 3, it seems like we should add information about that in this page as well. Not having played HoM myself, I guess I cannot add too much regarding that, can anyone who played both games add in more info about that? MythSearchertalk 17:31, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I've played HoM, but not SD3 (yet)! I'll expand it. And, if no-one minds, I'll be adding the official translations from HoM over (not in place of) the fan-trans (excepting direct quotes, of course). Yellow Mage (talk) 12:40, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

2 vs 3 Player?
I was one of those who was referred to the 3 player patch a few years ago so I was a bit surprised to find that bit deleted. I was those who played the 2-player version of the game then, so there could possibly be two versions of the game. Instead of deleting it, I propose we can edit some of the wording in paragraph to suit this scenario. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.18.11 (talk) 05:36, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

The last word on the 3 player patch
Once again I find this page has been vandalized with erroneous information. It looks like protests from MythSearcher are largely responsible for the changes. He frequently claims he played a 3 player copy of the game without any references, evidence, or citations. Given that his protests were based on personal research whereas information on the patch is available from independent and multiple verifiable 3rd parties I have amended the section in question to reflect this.

I didn't want to have to do this myself, and I certainly didn't write the original section to include information about the patch myself because I am the author of the patch. I ran the analysis on the code for all the variations of the ROM that exist. I read the disassembly, found and disassembled the player code, and personally objectively verified that the game was 2 player. Do I seriously need to post a dump of the ROM with logs of register access to prove that the game didn't access multi-tap controller input registers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.252.26.26 (talk) 01:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

maybe the story section could be improved somewhat
i have played the game and the fairy becomes the new mana goddess at the end of the game. the tree however will take time to regrow and as such mana will not return for a 1000 years.84.212.73.96 (talk) 13:46, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Mmm, it's a bit poorly written in the game (at least in translation) - the fairy says that she is going to disappear along with mana (and then does), but then the Tree/Goddess tells you that "the fairy is the Tree's seed, and when she meets three heroes she becomes the new Goddess" and that she/the tree will return in 100 years. So, I think I'll change "she will become a new Mana Goddess in a thousand years" to "she will be reborn as the Mana Goddess in a thousand years", since she's kind of the Goddess now, but is also not present and won't be for 1000 years. -- Pres N  14:37, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

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