Talk:Trinity College, Toronto

Model
Alright, so some significant editing needs to be done. Let's take a couple of other similar pages, all Featured articles, as models. Duke University, Cornell University, and Michigan State University are all great examples.--Sycron 19:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * All fantastic articles, however given the present direction of this article and the nature of Trinity itself, perhaps it would be most expedient to follow most closely the model of the Oriel College article, also a featured article. Wachowich 04:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Buildings
Let’s start work on the very necessary Buildings section. Below is my suggested template, what do you think?

Buildings

 * Trinity College
 * Quadrangle
 * Chapel
 * Strachan Hall
 * Senior Common Room
 * Junior Common Room
 * St. Hilda’s College
 * Rigby Room
 * Devonshire Place
 * Graham Library
 * Munk Centre for International Relations
 * Larkin
 * The Buttery

Wachowich 21:34, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The SCR shouldn't been seen as a branch of Strachan, but otherwise this is a good start.--Sycron 01:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Great work so far, however, noting the test under Strachan Hall, I believe it would be prudent to establish a clear distinction between the various buildings, particularly the Trinity building (what’s the official name? Trinity College perhaps) and St. Hilda’s (same question).Wachowich 19:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, much work still needs to be done. I'm starting to fill in the citation holes though, which is good.--Sycron 19:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Episkopon: Overlord vs. Overseer.
According to the article Bishop, "Bishop comes from the Greek word episkopos (επίσκοπος, from επι "over" and σκοπος "seeing"). It can be generally translated bishop, overseer, superintendent, supervisor, the first, leader or foreman. From the word episkopos are derived the English words episcopacy, episcopate and episcopal."

Based on this, I changed User:Wachowich's edit See archived version, which included the Greek version of Episkopon, defining it as 'overlord', to a definition stating 'overseer'. I did this anonymously because I wasn't signed in. Sorry. Shagmaestro 03:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Works for me; for the purposes of a neutral point of view in the article, the word ‘overseer’ is lacking in any unwanted heavy connotations. However, for the purposes of factual accuracy and precision of definition, the issue goes unresolved.  It seems to me that the key to arriving at such a definition lies in finding the exact meaning of the suffix –σκοπων, which I am presuming differs, however perhaps slightly from the suffix –σκοπος (note particularly the distinction between omega in the former and omicron in the latter).  Is there anyone here with enough knowledge of Greek to give a definitive answer?


 * It should also be noted that at least one source (Hill’s radio program) claims that the word is fabricated, based on English religious terminology of Greek origin, like the word Episcopal. Wachowich

Trinity College James Bond Society
I don't quite understand the reason why this should be included in the page. Wikipedia is not a collection of every fact in the world. Sure, it's a levied club at Trinity, but is it really notable enough to feature inclusion in the main article?--Sycron 02:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * TCJBS is LEVIED?! What on earth? I agree that it's probably not notable enough to be included.  See the Harvard College for an example of a good club list.  Most of those clubs are their own articles though.  Anyways, vote to remove.  --Shagmaestro 02:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * tcjbs is _not_ levied —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.151.162.209 (talk) 01:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Is Episkopon satirical?
The user BotleySmith and myself seem to be in disagreement regarding a few words of the Episkopon subsection of this article. I assert that it should read along the lines of:


 * Episkopon (Greek: Επισκοπων, meaning 'overseer') is a highly controversial yet somewhat satirical secret society that was founded at Trinity College in 1858. In 1992, Episkopon dissociated itself from the college following allegations of racism and homophobia. Despite official policies prohibiting Episkopon from engaging in any activities on college property, the society continues to play a significant role in undergraduate life at Trinity.

The point of contention is the wording ‘yet somewhat satirical’ in the first sentence. This wording has been removed by BotleySmith on multiple occasions without the matter having been referred to the talk page. I reinserted it with my justification noted on one occasion, however now having found my edit to have been reverted I believe a forum for discussion of this matter is in order.

I assert that the wording ‘yet somewhat satirical’ is essential for a full, yet conscise, representation of the role of Episkopon at Trinity. It cannot be denied that Episkopon has been the subject of at least two media scandals during the 1990s and is, and has always been, viewed with some apprehention by some Trinity students. However, this article would do a disservice to Trinity college, the reader and the principles of Wikipedia itself if it did not acknowlege that Episkopon is dearly beloved by many members of college, not just its executive membership but many others as well who understand the principles behind it and the role it is designed to play. Its readings are some of the best attended events associated with the college, with as many as four hundred people in attendance on some occasions. They are not only popular with current students, but also with alumni. This popularity does not stem from any kind of compusion or threat, but rather the comic value of the institution. Episkopon could be reasonably referred to as a local stand up comidy troop as much as a secret society. It is nothing less than an act of melicious bias through ommission and selection to fail to note this in the article.

Also, with regards to its reflection in the main article on the subject. I would like to be so bold as to direct your attention to the first sentence of Episkopon. For further documentation, there is a considerable amount of information regarding the society in the cintennial issue of the Trinity Review cited in other sections. That considered, I have reinserted ‘yet somewhat satirical’ with that as a reference. If you have any further notions regarding this matter, please note them here, rather than reverting my edit. Wachowich 18:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Your personal assertions aside, the source given does not support this reading. Trinity Review's self-published centennial cannot be relied upon to accurately depict any non-historical matter that is relevant today, some fifty-five years after its publication. A credible source — one published during the lifetimes of most current undergraduates' parents, perhaps — must back up any commentary on the organization's current activities. BotleySmith 00:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree with Botley. The only source that might be available here is the Declan Hill story - and even then, that was from 1993. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sycron (talk • contribs) 15:03, 29 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Okay, I'm taking it out then. BotleySmith 17:18, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Is absolutely satirical, see the discussion of Archibald Lampton role as Scribe at University of Western Ontario's Canadian Poetry site. http://www.uwo.ca/english/canadianpoetry/confederation/Archibald%20Lampman/essays_reviews/editorial_notes.htm After quick google, the organization seems to describe itself as satirical, and satire is nearly always determined by intent, whether it is good satire is another matter. Leftoverboy (talk) 18:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

GA fail
I have reviewed the article and I have decided to fail this article. There are numerous probolems in regards to points 1 and 2 on WP:WIAGA. I chose not to place this article on hold, because of both the large amount of references required and more significantly, that citation needed tags were in the article. The following is a list of suggestions that need to be addressed before renominating for GA.


 * Please add references to support claims made in the following:

''Of the seven colleges, Trinity has the highest proportion of students who graduate with "Distinction" or with "High Distinction", and the majority of Trinity students go on to pursue professional or graduate degrees. The college is also well known for striving to continue an old fashioned Oxbridge-type atmosphere including mandating the wearing of gowns at dinner and, until 2005, preserving sex segregation in the residences. The college maintains a thoroughly Anglican flavour in both academic and daily life, even though many of the students that attend the college are not Anglican themselves.''


 * This reads POV. Remove or support with a reference:

The college was born into a turbulent period in colonial history

and again with 'somewhat odd position':

This left King's College in a somewhat odd position, and Strachan's support for the school vanished.

and again, 'strong Anglican lines':

This action incensed Strachan, who immediately set about creating a private school based on strong Anglican lines.


 * Remove pov and non encyclopedic statement:

Trinity College was a highly regarded school throughout the nineteenth century, and was (perhaps surprisingly) fairly progressive.


 * The following claim needs expanding, at least to make it fit, prose, with the sentances and references after it, staunch criticism from whom and what - finish the sentance.

''In the latter part of the twentieth century, longstanding college institutions and traditions began to face staunch criticism. ''


 * This needs referencing to support the events that took place:

''Thus, in 2004 the college board of trustees voted narrowly in favour of ending Trinity's long practice of same-sex residency. Beginning in 2005, large portions of Trinity's residences became home to people of both sexes. Corresponding changes to student government followed: regular gender-specific college meetings were eliminated, and in March 2007, the Trinity College Meeting (the highest student-run governing authority at the college) voted narrowly to end the practice of gender segregated voting, thus making all students eligible to vote for all elected positions, including those which are gender specific, such as the male and female Heads of College.''


 * The quadrange section doesnt flow at all, the statement about similar to other needs integrating, suggest rewrite:

''The back courtyard of the main Trinity building has long been a centre piece of student life at the college. At the original location of Trinity on Queen’s Street, the area backed on to an open ravine, still present at Trinity Bellwoods Park. Additions to Old Trinity began in 1877, with the erection of Convocation Hall to the north of the main entrance.[12] This, along with the erection of the Chapel in 1883, created east and west wings of the college. Thus in 1903 it was held that Trinity was deserving of a significant expansion to the north, forming a double quadrangle found throughout the constituent Oxbridge colleges.[12] However, after federation with the University of Toronto, it became clear that the relocation of Trinity to the grounds of UofT was a necessary reality, and thus hopes of a double quadrangle soon disappeared''


 * Citation needed reference tags must be answered and removed. A GA article can not have unreferenced citation tags within the article.


 * Please reference the source of this information:

''Built in the modified perpendicular Gothic style, the main chapel extends 100 feet to the reredos and is 47 feet high at the vault bosses. Using only stone, brick and cement, the architects employed Italian stonemasons using ancient building methods; the only steel in the construction is in the hidden girders supporting the slate roof. The exterior walls are of sandstone.''


 * The following claim should be removed - favoured place to study, by whom, for what, how many people use it. POV.:

''It is also, mostly during the daylight hours, a favoured place for students to study. Copies of select newspapers are available for viewing on a daily basis.''


 * Please reference the following, mostly in regards to the topic of the tapestry, source:

''Adorning the walls of the hall are portraits of important figures in the history of the college. The largest potraits, of Bishop Strachan and Provost Whitaker, Trinity's first provost, hang from the north wall. On the front wall of the hall, prominent behind the High Table, hangs a large mediaeval tapestry. This tapestry was woven in Flanders in the fourteenth century and is meant to depict the coming of the Queen of Sheba, from the biblical book of Kings.''


 * Where has this information come from, has it been copied? Please reference:

''The college was moved to a building on Shaw Street in 1889, then to a set of two larger houses on the same street in 1892, and in 1903 to a larger, purpose-built building on the main Trinity College grounds. In 1925, when Trinity College moved from its original location on Queen Street to the main University of Toronto campus, St. Hilda's College was moved to 99 St. George Street. The final move took place in 1938, when the current St. Hilda's building on Devonshire Place was opened. In 2005, the administration of Trinity College elected to end the practice of same-sex residency; as a result, St. Hilda's College now houses both men and women.''


 * Citation needed tag again! This time in academics suggest - please address.


 * The entire diviinity section needs several references, citation tags must be answered and a reqrite needed because at the moment it appears copyvio.


 * The Literary institute needs reference tags and edits for prose, style and pov: Consider the following, central role... Furthermore this section has a citation tag as well:

''The Trinity College Literary Institute (TCLI or, more commonly, "the Lit") predatesTrinity itself, and plays a central role in undergraduate student life at the College. ''


 * Where does the following information come from:

''A Trinity College Dramatic Club was first formed in 1892 at the University of Trinity College, apparently under the auspices of Lally McCarthy who graduated that year. The Dramatic Club produced plays in Toronto and toured Guelph, Woodstock, Brantford, and Hamilton in 1894, which caused the club to bankrupt itself later that year. The club re-emerged as the Dramatic Society, producing “Two Modern English Plays” in 1919, but its “Annual Productions” did not begin until 1921. It was in that year that the Dramatic Society was first able to use Hart House as a performance venue.''


 * Again another claim suggesting that something is an important part of student/college life. More importantly please reference the claim for racism, homophobia etc:

''In 1992, Episkopon dissociated itself from the college following allegations of racism and homophobia. Despite official policies prohibiting Episkopon from engaging in any activities on college property, the society continues to play a significant role in undergraduate life at Trinity.''

These are just a few suggestions. After points that need addressing throughout the article including grammar errors and reference tags need to go immediately after punctuation.An example of this would be the film section where the reference should go after the claim, information given (not in the middle of the sentance). Also, many people claim, who are these people? The author of the source? Please explain further. Finally the logo of the university has no fair use rationale, this is essential for GA. I hope you are able to address these issues and if you need to discuss the points raised please leave me a message. Thanks

LordHarris 14:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for taking the time to review the article. Your input is truly invaluable.--Sycron 17:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Trincrest.png
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BetacommandBot 19:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Per Capital Endowment
Trinity and Victoria have pretty comparable per capita endowments, and without solid proof of which is higher (if such proof is actually possible) I think we should avoid making such strong claims as "this college is the wealthiest per-student institution in the country". Also the term "institution" sounds kind of weasel-ly to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.100.151.111 (talk) 02:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Trinity's per student endowment is quite easy to calculate. Divide the endowment by the number of full-time students. It is not, as claimed, $57000, but much closer to $38,000. It is thus not far higher than any other school in Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.235.220.80 (talk) 23:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

While the above comment might correctly reflect the per capita endowment available at Trinity for its students, the per-Trinity-student endowment is indeed closer to $57,000; and I think that this latter value is more what people mean when they talk about per capita endowments. Trinity students are also students of the University of Toronto, which (I believe) has a separate endowment. So the total per capita endowment of Trinity students would be Trinity's endowment divided by the number of Trinity students, plus the University of Toronto's endowment divided by the number of U of T students. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.48.161 (talk) 21:48, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Davies Rebel Angels.JPG
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 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --02:48, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Toronto Star Controversy
Specifically citing the Toronto Star article and the recent criticisms it made seems redundant when the organization is itself labled (correctly) as controversial in the preceding paragraph. Perhaps this source could be added as a further citation but does not merit a paragraph on its own as that suggests a less than neutral POV. Moreover, the source itself is of questionable validity as its input came primarily from hearsay and without any input from members of the Episkopon itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Voxpacem (talk • contribs) 17:51, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. It looks like the consensus was already building momentum at the time this was relisted a week ago. No new opposition has arose, but more support has. UtherSRG (talk) 21:55, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

University of Trinity College → Trinity College, Toronto – Relisted. Not sure if there is a consensus for an alternative title at this point. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:19, 18 March 2012 (UTC) This page should be moved to "Trinity College, Toronto", because "University of Trinity College" is an incorrect misnomer often used by students, but not the legal or official name. The actual name is simply "Trinity College". This is used on all legal documents including charitable returns (Link) and on Trinity's own website (see the copyright notice at the bottom of the page). However, the page cannot be moved to "Trinity College, Toronto" at present because THAT article redirects back to University of Trinity College Kenojuak37 (Talk | Contribs) 19:30, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Both forms are used throughout the college statutes, and some older documents reflect the currency of the usage "Trinity University" (cf. Victoria University in the University of Toronto) as well. Carolynparrishfan (talk) 03:24, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Alternative use Trinity College, University of Toronto or Trinity College (University of Toronto) . It is a component college of UofT, so indicating it is better than simply "Toronto", which to me seems to be the wrong disambiguator (the city instead of the university) 70.24.251.71 (talk) 04:28, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Trinity College (University of Toronto). We should disambiguate by institution, not by city in this case. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:37, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - The "Toronto" in "Trinity College, Toronto" refers to the University of Toronto not the City of Toronto, although obviously the university is itself named after the city. This is clear from the context. Does "Oxford" in Trinity College, Oxford or "Cambridge" in Trinity College, Cambridge refer to the universities, or the cities with which they share the same names? The same can be said for King's College London or University College, Durham, or any university named after a city. Jphillips23 (talk) 01:22, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Strongly Oppose the proposed changes. I think we should keep the present title. It is true that the traditional name is not much in favour these days, but it has been in use for 150 years: The notion that this usage is simply an "incorrect misnomer" seems to me unsubstantiated. And it is by no means used only by students (though students are often perhaps more inclined to defend the traditional culture of the institution than faculty or administrators); "The University of Trinity College" was the official usage for most of the institution's history. An even more serious error is the assertion, which is entirely without foundation, that Trinity is a "component college" of UofT. It is not a CONSTITUENT college like University, New, or Innis but rather a FEDERATED college like Victoria or St Michael's. There are important legal and historical differences. The important thing to be clear about is that Trinity has been since it received its Charter in 1853 a university with the power to grant degrees. It has indeed a relation, a close relation, to the University of Toronto, but it is not part of it. Personaggi (talk) 09:57, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment "The University of Trinity College, informally referred to as Trin, is a college of the University of Toronto, founded in 1851 by Bishop John Strachan." -- the first sentence "is a college of", indicates being part of, and therefore a component of. "a federated college of", so, is it under the umbrella of UofT or not? From your link, it appears they are part of UofT, and not merely an allied institution (viz, the former Loyola College in Montreal (now part of Concordia University) that issued degrees from UdeM, or other colleges in Quebec that need to be allied with an accredited university to issue degrees) It looks much like Colleges that are part of Universities in Britain. 70.24.251.71 (talk) 10:51, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * But do English colleges have their own degree-granting authority? If not, that would be a major difference. Carolynparrishfan (talk) 14:29, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It's really not any different from the case of the Oxbridge colleges, which are all legally separate from the university. That's typical for a collegiate university. The legal technicalities are interesting, but they don't really have much to do with naming Wikipedia articles in a sensible way. Jphillips23 (talk) 01:46, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I would have to think that degree-granting authority would be relevant, if indeed not definitive, to the distinction between a university and college. Carolynparrishfan (talk) 03:58, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - Per WP:COMMONNAME. In modern times, simply "Trinity College" is used much more than the full name. Renaming to "Trinity College, Toronto" makes the naming system consistent with the rest of the U of T colleges and the standard convention used at most other universities. For comparison see the titles for Trinity College, Cambridge, Trinity College, Oxford, Trinity College, Dublin, or any other Oxbridge college. Trinity College, Oxford's full official name is in fact "The College of the Holy and Undivided Trinity in the University of Oxford, of the foundation of Sir Thomas Pope (Knight)", but obviously the official name is not the common name. Jphillips23 (talk) 01:10, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * REname in one of the ways suggested, to distinguish it from Trinity College, Cambridge, Trinity College, Oxford, Trinity College, Dublin, and any others. Trinity College, Toronto would be consistent with Oxford, Cambridge and Dublin without the necessity for anything longer.  Peterkingiron (talk) 14:45, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Salterrae
Just to clarify about Salterrae -- it had a previous incarnation to the present one. When I attended Trinity in the mid-1960s, Salterrae was a Gestetnered 'newspaper', affectionately considered a 'rag' since it consisted mostly of humorously-written gossip. A favourite recollection of mine of Salterrae was the editor's account of being part of a group invited for tea with Melinda Seaman in her residence at St Hilda's College -- it contained the line "Was that a hair from Miss Seaman's pussy I saw on her couch?" Miss Seaman was Dean Of Snilda's at the time (not sure of her exact title) and had a white cat. Markcymru (talk) 23:48, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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