Talk:Trinity College, Toronto/Archive 1

Lit
Should the Lit have its own article? Wachowich 19:13, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

No. It's not a separate entity of the College.--Sycron 21:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Crest
The current picture of the college crest is quite pixelated. What seems to be a slightly higher resolution version can be found on the Trinity College facebook group. I would import it myself, but I haven’t the faintest idea how to import pictures. Could someone with the necessary knowledge please do so. Wachowich 13:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Founding date
The date given in the data box in the article reads as 1858, now if I am not mistaken, Trinity was founded in 1851. The Strachan article attests to this as well as the fireplace in Strachan hall. It is a universal law that roman numerals on a mantelpiece in a gothic hall are never wrong. Wachowich 12:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Additions
Alright, I've been moving fairly swiftly in editing the structure of the article. Now it's time for additional content. As far as I can see, the following areas are lacking:


 * Administration and governance (structure, and the importance of student government, the TCM etc)
 * Graham Library
 * Quadrangle renewal project
 * Residences (notice the complete lack of information about St. Hildas in general) [Edit: Just discovered that St. Hildas has its own article. I'm going to advocate the merging of the two, seeing as St. Hildas' primary function today is simply a residence building.]
 * The LIT

Are there any additional suggestions, or objections?--Sycron 19:29, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree to merging St. Hilda's and Trinity articles; seems good. Perhaps a little bit on appearances in films and general gothic-colonial flavour?  Neat tid-bits.  Also: University of Toronto Centre for Ethics is on the 2nd floor of the Larkin building; perhaps list Dean of Arts Derek P. Allen, as he is effectively the principal of the college, whereas MMcM is more like the president, as it were.  There is lots more to be done indeed, but progress is impressive so far. Shagmaestro 02:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Trinity One
If I'm not mistaken, only IR and Ethics are identified with Trin One...? Edward Wakelin 04:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

That would be correct according to this, my bad. --Sycron 18:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

College Cheers, Grace, College Song
These are direct quotations of the lyrics, and are probably more suited to WikiSource (under the assumption that they are in the public domain, and I can prove this for both the College Song and Grace), unless someone can provide a compelling reason why their presence serves to illuminate the subject matter at hand. Quite frankly, it clutters and elongates the page without really providing any encyclopedic value as far as I can tell.


 * I think of the three, the cheer actually does have some notability and encyclopaedic value--if some explication is given. It points to the historic perception of the faculty of divinity, and its relationship to and function within the Anglican Church of Canada in general, and the diocese of Toronto and Wycliffe College in particular.  Mgriffin

Episkopon
I think that it is important that the focus of this page remain "Trinity College" and not "Trinity College and it's (Great/Horrible/Evil/Hilarious) Secret Society". Perhaps Episkopon needs it's own article so that it's controversies can be separately maintained. --Carruthers 19:29, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to advocate that Episkopon be moved to a separate page and then expanded. It is deserving of its own page given both the depth of its history and the fact that it is officially disassociated from the College (thus representing a unique entity and not simply a sidenote of Trinity). I'll proceed in the next few days. So are there any outstanding objections to doing so? --Sycron 04:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's a good idea. I would recommend leaving a line in this article about it, with something to the effect of Episkopon's status as a long-standing secret society of the college. Mgriffin 17:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I'm intending to leave a small section, something like:
 * "   Main article: Episkopon
 * Episkopon is a controversial Trinity College secret society that was founded in 1858. In 1992, Episkopon and the College officially disassociated, though the society continues to play a significant role in student life at Trinity."
 * It might be fined tuned a bit perhaps, and the issue of whether or not it constitutes a "secret society" needs to be cleared up.--Sycron 03:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

All my hard work
I have added information on the history of Trinity College and of St Hilda's College, the College Song, Cheers, and other facts. Why are they reverted?? Those are all based on facts.

SimonP, give me an answer!!!
 * A couple of reasons. Firstly the content you added was fairly biased, written by someone very pro-Trin. Secondly it seemed to be a copyvio of, unless you own the copyright to that page you cannot add it to Wikipedia. - SimonP 23:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I am not the 65.93.174.50 who re-added the song and grace, but wanted to chime in with you, SimonP, about potential copyvios. In addition to being distributed to students in the paper version of the link you cited, the song and the grace are widely distributed on papers without copyright information of any kind (I'm looking at one I was given as an entering div student this year).  While lack of copyright info does not mean the information is public domain, in this particular case I think that a strong argument can be made that this information is public domain.  Anyone eating dinner at Trin would hear the grace; the cheer is certainly widely known outside of the college.  The song--and more particularly, the introduction to it, inserted by 65.93.174.50, may be more worrisome. Mgriffin 18:30, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Thinking about the organization of the page, I'd like to suggest moving the Facts section to just below the History section. We can follow Facts with the Episkopon section, and then grace, cheer, and song (though it's awfully long, and formatted ick-ily), and conclude with References and External Links. Any thoughts before I do this? Mgriffin 18:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Mgriffin, I agree. Episkopon stuff seems to be too high on the page, but the song and grace should probably be above it.  Do you know how to reformat the song? Also, as a former graduate my understanding is that the song is quite old and without known authorship.  Perhaps we should contact the college?  I'll do it if that kind of thing makes a difference. Leftoverboy 18:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Just checked a college history and it seems the song is from the 1890s. The leading words are right out of the history I have and that history is a booklet which credits multiple revisions and editors back to 1947. I have emailed one of the early editors (1970) to ask about inclusiion in Wikipedia.Leftoverboy 18:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I concur.Blunders of the third kind 14:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Smallest and Most Elite
The phrase arguing that Trin is "the smallest and most elite of the University of Toronto's colleges and throughout its history it has had the highest entering requirements in the college system" keeps being added into the article. It seems strongly NPOV to me, though I might be persuaded that it has been perceived as such. Can we who keep an eye on this page discuss what is appropriate, and come to some sort of consensus? Mgriffin 02:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I say that the phrase minus "most elite" is fully factual. Let it stand. Leftoverboy 04:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Even if that is the consensus (I tend to agree with the statement myself) as a statement in Wikipedia it is indefensible. And no, Leftoverboy, it is not "factual". Carolynparrishfan 19:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Historically this was the case, but I believe Innis College today has the higher entering average. - SimonP 19:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm quite pleased with the current two sentences: "Trinity is the smallest of the University of Toronto's seven colleges. Throughout Trinity's history, it has managed to maintain high entrance averages for incoming students."  While I think one could make an argument that the history of Trin has been to eke out some sense of being the elite college of UofT, your point, Simon P, strongly attacks the weasel-y "throughout its history."  My personal hobby-horse is the POV "most elite" that keeps being snuck back in.  I would love to hear people who disagree with me argue the point.  Mgriffin 21:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Number of undergrads
The infobox says 1,500 last I checked, the article says about 1,700, but I assume that includes divinities students.

Trinity College's official website says that there are about 1,600 (http://www.trinity.utoronto.ca/about/). But that site might be out of date for all I know.

Edward Wakelin 03:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * See here for numbers on the new website: 1,700 undergrads and 140 divs. Shagmaestro 14:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Endowment
I brought the endowment to $64.7mn, in line with a quick analysis of the 2005-2006 externally-conducted Audited Financial Statements (see here). Formerly capital assets, current construction, and current assets had been included in endowment. My justification follows:

According to Financial endowment, "A financial endowment is a transfer of money or property donated to an institution, with the stipulation that it be invested, and the principal remain intact. This allows for the donation to have a much greater impact over a long period of time than if it were spent all at once, due to compound interest."

It is clear that capital assets (i.e. buildings, property, art, rare books, &c.) do not generate income, though they do indeed appreciate in value over time; capital assets are not a principal sum. Construction-in-progress falls similarly. Current assets ($2.7mn) refers to assets in the cash flow, likely including residence fees, food fees, and other short-term income that is either spent or redirected into investments quickly.

I think it is reasonable to restrict endowment to the $64.7mn held in investments, though of course I am open to argument on this point. Please do not revert or change the article without discussion here. Further, I recognise that my argument above for changing the endowment to $64.7mn is quite weak technically speakin -- i.e. I have made my case in writing very poorly -- but the issue should be able to hold itself up, hence my lack of effort. Shagmaestro 02:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The encyclopaedic value of the college cheers and grace
Both are institutions of the college, very unique institutions in the University of Toronto, by which Trinity and its students are distinguished from the rest of the university. The cheer is used for all college events where Trinity students as a group interact with the rest of the U of T, while the grace is read by a high ranking upper year in the dining halls Monday to Thursday. It would seem to this contributor that they add as much to the article as the photos of the building and image of the Trinity crest do. Wachowich 05:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * They add absolutely no value to the article. Should we list the entirety of the Homeric epic on the Illiad page? Of course not. Direct quotation of lyrics without clear historical explication is not encyclopedic; hence the creation of WikiSource - the place where these things belong.--Sycron 05:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * First of all, they are, unlike a certain Greek epic poem consisting of 24 books, of very small size and therefore, so far as I can see, would be inefficient wikisource articles by themselves. Due to their small size, they take only a few seconds to read and assimilate.  If these are to be eliminated, what then of ‘Met’Agona Stephanos’?  I cannot see how you can make a rational distinction between the two.  What’s more, all three are unmistakable indications of the character of the college not otherwise given.  A necessary fact which ought to be borne in mind, and has not been in quite some time given most of the recent edits, is that Trinity is largely defined by its traditions and institutions, the grace, cheers and song being fine examples; and that Trinity is certainly lacking in the neutral utilitarian nature that is so prominent in most modern educational institutions.  The article should doubtlessly reflect that, if we have any intention of making it true to reality, even if it means going outside of the standards of articles in this category.  However, I will say that in their present positions in the article they do look overly conspicuous.  How would you recommend folding them into the ‘Student Life’ section? Wachowich 14:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I would recommend placing them where they belong - on WikiSource. See: WP:NOT. Further, do any of the featured articles in this category (universities) contain the full text of their cheers? See: Cornell University, Duke University, Michigan State University, Ohio Wesleyan University, Oriel College, Rajshahi University, and University of Michigan. What those articles do contain, in some cases, is historically-relevant information regarding songs and cheers, see University of Michigan. Does it contain the full text? Absolutely not. It contains information that is encyclopedic and relevant. --Sycron 17:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * First of all, you ignored my final argument out of hand. I believe it can be said in full neutrality that Trinity is a unique institution with a rich and wide array of traditions that are very important to innumerable students, alumni and others associated with the college.  To fail to document these customs and traditions in their entirety in the wikipedia article would be doing an injustice to both Trinity and Wikipedia itself.


 * When I look through the list of articles provided I notice, first of all that most of them contain only the sort of information available from a dean’s filing cabinet. They, for the most part, do not give any honest indication of the flavour and attitude of the institution.  This is wrong generally and particularly wrong in the case of a place like Trinity.  As such an impression (documented in a neutral manner, hence the necessity of original lyrics and text to substantiate statements) is a necessity if one is to know anything beyond factoids about an institution.  The most notable exception to the bare-bones utilitarian trend of these articles I see is the article on Oriel College, in which I would like to draw your attention to Oriel College (a section of a featured article virtually identical to one of the sections of this article currently under dispute).  This article and the other articles on the Oxbridge colleges should be our primary models, rather than a few featured articles on American universities completely unlike Trinity in any way.  The current state of affairs is roughly equivalent to using the article on Star Trek: The Next Generation as a model to expand the stub on CBC News: Morning just because they both happen to be TV shows.


 * Finally, all the featured articles given are highly developed and have a very wide array of what may be called supporting articles. By that, I mean articles focusing exclusively on a subtopic touched upon in the main article.  Our own article on Episkopon is an example of this.  A prominent example from the featured articles is Cornelliana.  Please note with particular interest how each of the Cornell songs has its own article, with complete lyrics.  Frankly, the Trinity article as it now stands is not developed anywhere near to the extent of the featured articles you have shown me.  However, with the current rate of progress, it will be in due course.  I strongly believe that all information available about Trinity should be poured into this article for now, with the understanding that much of it will be split off into separate articles, or other wikis, in the future.  To start breaking up the article now would merely create an unnecessary cornucopia of stubs to deal with and confuse those with a desire to make contributions regarding specific facets of the college. Wachowich 20:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * A quick note, I reinserted these articles with a copy to wikisource box. The reinsertion is to ensure that the attention of a wikisource admin is not diverted by the fact that the text is not displayed in the article.  If one more computer literate than I has a logical and educated reason to disagree with this assumption, then feel free to hide them once again.  If all goes well, they should be copied to wikisource by an admin shortly, however their status within this article will not be affected. Wachowich 04:54, 1 April 2007 (UTC)