Talk:Trinity Western University/Archive 1

Homosexuality?
Should there be a mention of whether or not about an institution's view or teachings about homosexuality? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.226.54.163 (talk) 02:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

This reads like an ad - and doesn't have a controversy section - and there have definitely been controversies - particularly around their stance on homosexuality.

Yes I agree. The Bible teaches that committing homosexual acts is a sin and violates natural [God's] law. Whether you agree with the Bible or believe in God or not is not at issue, but as the University abides by biblical principles this is controversial but pretty straight forward. This is now explicitly mentioned in the section regarding the school's Community Covenant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.39.112.212 (talk • contribs) 20:04, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * just to clarify, there is a diversity of understanding in Evangelical Christianity as to whether homosexuality is or is not a sin, with the majority of Evangelicals coming down on the side that believes it to be one. Those who object, however, also do so believing that it is what the Bible teaches. Stating that "The Bible teaches that committing homosexual acts is a sin and violates natural [God's] law" is therefore opinion at best. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:22, 29 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Opinion at best... "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Leviticus 18:22. "For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error." Romans 1:26-27. "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor. 6:9-11. (All ESV translations).
 * Görlitz, while I appreciate your work on this wiki, this does not read like an opinion on what the Bible teaches. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.39.112.212 (talk • contribs) 20:07, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for admitting that it's opinion at best.
 * If you're stating that my statement is opinion at best, you're wrong. There are many Evangelicals who believe it's no longer wrong. I won't go into the argument but if you have some time, I can provide a set of podcasts that clearly delineate the different viewpoints on it while coming down on the "traditional" Evangelical view (the one you seem to hold). Both sides use scripture to back their position. Both sides take different scriptures to support their position. Both sides are Christian. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:03, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

No thank you I am not interested in your podcasts - and I hold the Orthodox position. This position is not traditional, but rather historic and foundational. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.39.112.212 (talk) 01:03, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Too bad. I thought that you were interested in learning, but I'm clearly confused for your reason to be here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:23, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
 * This has been bothering me for a month and I can't leave it. Other readers may find this useful even if you don't. The discussion series can be found at http://www.themeetinghouse.com/teaching/archives/2014/questioning-god/ and the specific topic is "Week 4: Why Are Some Christians so Homophobic?". There are two parts: the audio/video of the sermon and the "Drive Home" portion. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:41, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Edits by 67.164.84.97
I don't agree with you stripping factual information out of this article and implanting your own information. If you wish to add to what is already there, fine with me, but do it in a way that respects everyone's edits, don't be a jerk. This isn't an autobiography, it's a factual article that lists both the pros and the cons. -- Spinboy 06:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree, stop being a jerk! Make sure you wikify your work next time. -- Earl Andrew - talk 06:06, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * The edits were so well written and in that format I could swear they were taken from someone else's website, if not that of the University, which is a violation of Wikipedia's copyright policy. --[[Image:Ottawa flag.png|20px]] Spinboy 06:15, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I apologize if I hurt your feelings for editing out your information. Seeing as the data regarding the number of students and TWU's "most notable" characteristic were not current, I just assumed someone had written it a long time ago and would not mind it being updated. And you are right, both pros and cons need to be in a factual article, so I added a bold section headline about the legal case. I do not appreciate being called a jerk--I did nothing "jerk-y". And thank you for the compliment ("so well written and in that format"), I wrote it all myself.


 * Great job then, I'll see if I can't make it a little less... formal/starchy. --[[Image:Ottawa flag.png|20px]] Spinboy 06:31, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Wait, please don't. That is how other universities format theirs, it is easier to read that way.


 * Which universities? I don't see any as bad. It has a remotely similar format, yet not. Also, it needs to be wickified. --[[Image:Ottawa flag.png|20px]] Spinboy 06:37, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, that looks better! I did not know how to do a table of contents. I am sorry for underestimating your idea. Please don't be mad at me.


 * It's quite okay, I'm not upset, I just want to see this article be less sterile. I understand you're new, so it's okay. :-) --[[Image:Ottawa flag.png|20px]] Spinboy 06:40, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Enrollment stats
There was no cite given for the previous figure of 3,300 students, so I found and cited the Fact Sheet link at TWU.ca with the 3,500 figure. There remains a claim of 2800 undergrads and 575 postgrads in the right-column summary in the article. This doesn't necessarily add up and isn't cited, so maybe someone else can take it from here and track down a source for numbers. --Ds13 05:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure--I've been meaning to get some more accurate info on this. That fact sheet seems to have been written circa 2003 given the lack of programs/majors which have been added since then, new president etc. There was a newspaper article that had 2006 enrollment data, so I'll track that down and see what I can do to this. Thanks for the prompting. :) ModernMajorGeneral 16:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * MMG, I've reverted some facts you replaced because when I clicked through to the reference you gave, the fact wasn't there. Maybe you can clarify.  Anyways, I put back the old stats that had citations because an old fact that can be verified is better than a more up to date fact we believe to be true but can't be verified by the reader. ("The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.") --Ds13 04:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, sorry about the Langley Times, I thought I copied the whole link but it looks like I hadn't...it's should link to the right article now though. I've added more links to the online calendar which lists the programs/courses/etc, so hopefully those will work. Let me know though if anything else is missing. ModernMajorGeneral

Community Standards
For the second time, I have replaced the deleted list of specific behaviours that members of the TWU community are not permitted to engage in. This list is notably restrictive for a Canadian community and the facts are verifiable so I think it's quite encyclopedic to have it here. --Ds13 04:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought I had a link to the list, but its perfectly fine to write them out on the article. Regarding the "responsibilities" not attempting to be statements of what the university believes to be biblical guidelines in general--I will find a press release of some sort to verify that. For anyone at the university, it is clear that what I wrote in that first paragraph of the section is what is implied/understood about the responsibiities (statements made by profs, addresses to the student body, student newspaper etc), but I will try to find a paper source for that. In the meantime, I would appreciate if that section could be kept in (with the "citiation needed" link), as that is what is implied in the links I did find. I know this is sort of a touchy subject, but it does need to be balanced. I hope this makes sense. ModernMajorGeneral 05:19, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. A reference to show non-biblical intent is interesting and it's definitely worth showing both sides to our article readers. --Ds13 05:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Dancing
I couldn't find any reference to "dancing at non-disretionary nightclubs" in TWU's Student Handbook. Maybe this is due to the New Social Dance Policy changes. Perhaps this line should be edited to something which reflects the University's policies better (provided I didn't simply miss the source it was referring to) --Davidkazuhiro 07:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I am removing this line since nobody's improved it after 6 months. By the way, what is a "non-discretionary nightclub"? Staecker 15:52, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

GA Review Completed
Hello,

I have now completed my GA Review of this article:


 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
 * 1) It is stable.
 * 2) It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
 * a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
 * 1) Overall:
 * a Pass/Fail:
 * a Pass/Fail:

At this time, this article does not meet the Good Article criteria. To rectify this, the article will need to be referenced properly and verifiable. This was the sole reason for failing the article at this time. I'd suggest having a look at WP:Verifiability and WP:CITE for more information on this.


 * In particular, the sections on Recognition and Student Life are completely unreferenced.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you for your work so far.  Pursey  Talk 11:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Link to the President's blog
I normally loathe links to personal blogs, but the guy is the President of the University, and we do link to other personal blogs, like that of Bob Parsons. I think in this case the link should be kept. GreenJoe 14:46, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed non-examples of "Recognition"
These were removed from the "Recognition" section because 1) they are not examples of recognition, and 2) they are unsourced. These are facts (or maybe trivia) but not examples of recognition. The text removed is here; please add it to a more appropriate section of the article if it can be included with a reliable source this time. --Ds13 (talk) 21:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * TWU’s Dead Sea Scrolls Institute is home to the largest collection of primary Greek manuscripts of the New Testament in North America, fourth to Munster, the British Museum, and the Vatican City.
 * TWU’s Septuagint Institute is the core of North America’s research, translation, and study of the earliest Greek translations of the Jewish texts.
 * TWU is the only university in western Canada to offer an MBA for the non-profit sector.

Similar names?
Should "Evangelical Free Churches of America" be "Evangelical Free Church of America?"

On 1st glance it appears to be a similarity of name only.

I further note that the University History cites the "Evangelical Free Church" as its founding body. sinneed (talk) 00:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It's the Evangelical Free Church of America and the Evangelical Free Church of Canada, two separate though closely related national denominations (I believe the EFCA (United States) essentially "planted" the EFCC (Canada)). See the TWU fact sheet.  I don't remember the link for the source, but I believe that at least a few of members of the university governance are appointed by each denomination.  --Philosopher Let us reason together. 15:00, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Programs
Should this be a subsection under Academics?

Recognition - Cut to talk for possible inclusion - flagged unsourced since 2008

 * Trinity Western University has consistently ranked higher than any other university in Canada in the category "Overall Quality of Education" in the Globe and Mail's University Report Card, an opinion poll of Canadian undergraduate students. It also ranked highest overall in its size category. TWU consistently scored the highest rank awarded in several other categories of the report:
 * Quality of Education (A+)
 * Student-Faculty Interaction (A+)
 * Class Size (A+)
 * Overall University Atmosphere (A+)
 * Most Satisfied Students (A)
 * Quality of Teaching (A)


 * Trinity Western University alumnus CJ Patrick Davis (Research Fellow for the Canada Research Chair in Dead Sea Scrolls) was awarded the Panacea Society Scholarship for his doctoral work at the University of Manchester.


 * For two consecutive years, Trinity Western University alumni (Dorothy Peters & Matthew Thiessen) have earned the University of Oxford's prestigious "Best Dissertation" award for their graduate work.


 * Professor Peter Flint, Ph.D, of TWU has been appointed a Tier 1 Canada Research Chair, granting the University $1.4 million for research. Dr. Jens Zimmermann (Philosophy) has been appointed to a Tier 2 Canada Research Chair in Interpretation, Religion, and Culture from 2006-2010. Dr. Eve Stringham (Biology) has also been granted a $500,000 Tier 2 Canada Research Chair in Developmental Genetics and Disease.


 * Trinity Western University is the first B.C. University, and one of six in all of Canada, to obtain Certified Financial Planner registered status, offering a bachelor-level CFP education program.


 * Canada's leading conservation organization, the World Wildlife Fund, has awarded Professor Karen Steensma a $10,000 grant to complete research on the endangered Oregon Forest Snail.


 * In 2008, the Ministry of Agriculture and BC Blueberry Council awarded Professor Karen Steensma $20,000 to study agricultural impacts of the European Starling.
 * As of 2008, the men's volleyball team is the current CIS national championship team. Other recent national championship titles for the Spartans include: Men's Soccer (Silver, 2006), Men's Soccer (Bronze, 2005), Men's Volleyball (Silver, 2005), Women's Soccer (Gold, 2004).


 * Spartan women's volleyball assistant coach Ryan Hofer was named Male Coach of the Year by Volleyball Canada, the National Association for Volleyball in Canada.


 * The TWU student newspaper, Mars' Hill, won first place out of all four-year universities in North America, in the bi-weekly category.


 * Trinity Western University was granted exempt status from detailed reviews of its programs by the Minister of Advanced Education, becoming the first non-public institution in the province granted this standing.


 * In 2002, Trinity Western University president Dr. Neil Snider, was presented with the Commemorative Medal for the Golden Jubilee of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II (also called the Queen’s Golden Jubilee Award). Senator St. Germain described TWU as a University which is “recognized worldwide for the excellent calibre of education that it produces.”

- sinneed (talk) 03:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Reads like an advert
I'm getting the impression this text had been taken from some promotional material made by the university....

Thoughts?

Freddie Dingo (talk) 19:04, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * My only thought is "What?", right after, "sub-sub-sub-section?" - sinneed (talk) 21:19, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree, this totally reads like an advert — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.1.196.57 (talk) 22:01, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Your agreement is noted and the article has changed since the original comment was written. It is much better now than above, and contrary to your comment above, there is a section devoted to the supreme court case. In short, there is no controversy except with those who singe-out the homosexual clause in the contract. No one takes exception to the section that discusses that students are not permitted to engage in pre- or extra-martial relationships. That is what the supreme court decided. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:14, 17 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I think it still contains too much information that is unsourced or sourced to the university itself. Readers who want that level of detail should go the university's site.  TFD (talk) 17:32, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Could be. Please tag what you think needs to have references. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:44, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I would say this page no longer is like an advert at all, it looks like any other university's wiki. Just look at any of them and they're all pretty much the same. Most wikis are likely written by staff or alumns, so naturally the best foot is put forward. As it stands now, though, there are three complaints at the very top of the page regarding sourcing, 2 of which coming very recently. Very odd timing considering the controversy over the law school accreditation, just more plain old persecution IMHO. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.39.112.212 (talk • contribs) 20:04, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Lots of articles about schools are poorly written. Most of the article is of interest mainly to people thinking of studying there and those readers should go to the school's website for current information.  TFD (talk) 01:11, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Jan 2015 - This article is quite fragmented. I'm going to shape it up, fix the numerous typos, and try to get some re-organization, especially in regards to the Campus and Student Life sections. I also think there should be a section on the ongoing legal challenges / controversy. UComm — Preceding undated comment added 23:21, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

In response to the 3 flags at the top of this page, I am going to review the TWU article to bring it into compliance. This may take me a few days but I have some extra time as I am holiday atm... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.16.56.99 (talk) 03:14, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Neither link was in the archive though. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:11, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Third Oldest University??
UVic was founded in 1903. And several colleges that became universities predate TWU as well. The cited source is a timeline of higher ed in BC but does not actually say TWU is third oldest. I say this sentence should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.90.93.21 (talk) 21:57, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Victoria became a university in 1963, a year after TWU. TFD (talk) 23:14, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Trinity was a junior college when it was founded in 1963. It became a college later. Dr. Snider announced that it was officially recognized as a university while I was attending, during the period of 1983 and 1988. The source does not support the statement either. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:09, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

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