Talk:Trip hop/Archive 1

Restructuring needed
This article should start with a short and easy to grasp explanation of what is typical for the genre that is called trip hop today, and then go over to an explanation of the origin of the term. The whole first paragraph, the way it is now, seems very cluttered and hard to get an overview of. 84.217.135.48 21:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.70.158.177 (talk) 02:23, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

This doesn't make sense
''James Lavelle, founding member of UNKLE and owner of the famous trip hop label Mo'Wax used to say, "British hip hop lacks the lyrical skills of U.S. counterparts, but British kids have got the musical side." This offers insight as to why trip hop artists like DJ Shadow, DJ Krush, and DJ Cam often choose to strip out vocals in their works.''

I really don't get this. Lavelle is making a statement about British hip hop, so how does this tell us anything about DJ Shadow, DJ Krush, and DJ Cam, who are from the US, Japan, and France?

--Head of the Caligula Appreciation Society 00:48, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Hip hop?
Why is the template on this page? Trip hop isn't a type of hip hop. &mdash; Asbestos | Talk 11:07, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Thats true. - Anon


 * That depends on who you ask, I would disagree. Nonetheless, hip-hop is an obvious and important influence so I don't see the problem. — Phontain 15:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Trip hop and hip hop start with different letters.
 * Hip Hop has nothing to do with Trip Hop, and is irrelevant to the topic, I was seriously not impressed when I first this article a few days ago ~William — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.70.158.177 (talk) 02:22, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Sampling
The article mentions that "This reliance on sampling has changed the way record labels deal with clearing samples for use in other people's tracks." However, it does not elaborate. How, exactly, has this changed? IE, what was the old system, what's the new one, and why was the change catalyzed by Trip Hop? --Nentuaby
 * It probably isn't even true. Sampling started much earlier than the 1990s.  ;)

Category
Is there a reason why there is no Category:Trip hop ??? There sure would be alot to put in it... Karol 19:27, September 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes

Reggae?
What on earth is the go with the reggae style infobox? Trip-hop is as far from reggae as you could possibly imagine! JB Adder | Talk 03:28, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Probably not that so far, but you're right, it shouldn't be there. Karol 06:13, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. Reggae's (and Ska) influence is far underestimated by people who are too young to realize that Hip-hop, Trip-hop, etc. etc. have roots that go back to the late 1950.
 * Right then, I'm changing it to Musicgenrebox --JB Adder | Talk 10:50, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * A lot of the stuff is influenced by dub music, with the delays and occasional skanks and whatnot. I don't think it's too tenuous a connection Dj snyder 09:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Zero 7 trip hop?
I think that Zero 7 are not trip hop, but Lo-Fi or maybe Downtempo. Sia Furler (that once sang with them) is also under the Lo-Fi genre. Zero 7 has almost no drums in their music. Trip hop makes the drums an important part of it. I think Zero 7 should be removed from the list.


 * I think it shouldn't. Trip hop isn't just about the drums. Karol 17:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with the original poster, Zero 7 is no more trip-hop than Air is, and no one's arguing that Air be added.aubrey 22:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that Zero 7 and Air are not (at least hardcore) punk bands. Blondie and Garbage maybe so.  Point is, if you want to be so precise with your ontology, you really need to look into better definitions (the hair you split is arguing semantics, so argue the semantic properly and not the results)

Lobo Halcyon link
I've checked it out, and it seems to be a link to a specific artist, rather than a general style info link. Should it be removed? --JB Adder | Talk 05:03, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I already did. Karol 08:30, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Abstract hip-hop
Is there any difference between what's written here and here? --JB Adder | Talk 22:51, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I think trip hop differs from Abstract hiphop cuz Triphop is more electronica-related and abstract hiphip is more rap-related --84.193.10.87 15:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * So you're saying that the abstract hip-hop in the Trip hop article concentrates more on the music, whereas the Abstract hip hop in the article puts an emphasis on the lyrics? That makes a bit of sense. (Had to ask because I was thinking of linking the two articles together; obviously not a good idea now.) --JB Adder | Talk 06:46, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Jamaican dub?

 * a wide open sound that draws heavily on acid jazz, Jamaican dub music and electronica.

The bit that worries me is the Jamaican dub part. Could someone mind clarifying this? --JB Adder | Talk 05:54, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, considering Thievery Corporation's listed as a notable group...they've got a huge reggae influence.Dj snyder 09:12, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Neneh Cherry
Songs like "Manchild" from 1989 have been credited with presaging the Trip hop sound. Also songs from her second and third albums can be described as trip hop--Mutley 04:43, 15 July 2006 (UTC).

Goldfrapp?
The Neneh Cherry reference is complete and utter nonsense. There are certain music industry types, who, after descending upon the the early 90's Bristol scene (most notable luminary being Roni Size), have stolen the name Trip Hop as their own. It is a style of Music and the term was invented by the Multi-Instrumenatalist Musician Christopher Neville (if you wish to discuss thsi further you are welcome to email him cpneville@msn.com). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ad40b89f (talk • contribs) 14:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Not so fast
Nooooo. Not so fast. While this worthless argument has stood for nearly a decade, it is time someone pointed out the error: If you want to argue that something is, or is not, as it is stated, don't bash the reference without a logical argument. In particular, do not attribute something to someone without providing a publicly available citation, and certainly do not resort to ad hominum arguments posted with someone's email! Posting a person's email like this is a violation of their privacy. All of the above are in violation of Wikipedia's ToS. See the part right above this box that says "..Encyclopedic content must be verifiable.."

Missed names!!!
RECOIL - side project of Depeche Mode member.

SUNDAY MUNICH - great band, "american PORTISHEAD"

SWITCHBLADE SYMPHONY - album "Bread and Jam For Frances" is first goth / trip-hop crossover!

THE HUNGRY GHOST, HUNGRY LUCY, COLLIDE - goth-appeal side of post trip hop. Why do you missed them?

Agreed. Switchblade Symphony and Collide should be mentioned, as they're quite important in the Goth/Trip-Hop scene. WoundedWolfgirl (talk) 23:51, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Clarify
The opening para currently contains these words: "changed-up the beat and pallet mid-cut". Please clarify the meaning, or change the text. I dont understand this terminology. --Design 14:34, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Verify: Tru Thought Artists
Apparently, a couple of Tru Thought artists have made it onto the list. I have no problem with the label, but I'm unsure as to whether they have any real effect on the genre, or at least enough to warrant their inclusion. If they have been put here as a promotional tool, then their removal from the list is very much justified. --JB Adder | Talk 08:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

M/A/R/R/S and Eric B & Rakim
I think "Pump Up the Volume" is the first trip hop record. "Follow the Leader" is also a milestone in trip hop's prehistory. Discuss.

References?
This needs some serious citation work. Discuss.Yuletide 20:22, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely agree with you. Nebuliser (talk) 07:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Stylistic Origins
Downtempo is listed as a forerunner of trip-hop, but according to other sources I've read, it's the other way around: downtempo was one of the descendants of trip-hop. Should this be changed? C1k3 23:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If your sources are mixed as to the order, then leave it as is, and put a note explaining this. If not, then feel free to change it. --JB Adder (through the IP 129.180.1.214) | Talk 04:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Typical Instruments
I dont think that "flutes" are a typical instrument used on the Trip Hop genre, maybe it was used by some bands on some songs, but it isn't that common on this genre and "flutes" should be removed from that specification in this article. 200.8.89.188 (talk) 16:45, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Bristol is multicultural in comparison to ____?
"Bristol has a large multi-racial community (only 89.3 percent white)"

I think you'd find a lot of people who could find plenty of things wrong with this statement. At the very least, it needs a qualifier, like "compared to the UK average of ____" or something. San Francisco, California, is less than 50 percent white, making the qualifying "only" in this sentence seem laughable. As a matter of fact, this made me laugh when I read it :)... 69.65.232.61 (talk) 08:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Haha. Agreed, that sentence is a joke. It's not even a very significant difference from the overall UK demographics, which would make it notable. I'm deleting it for now, if anyone disagrees please comment. --8doczzz1 (talk) 03:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

One band and one album do not make a musical movement
Massive Attack + Portishead's "Dummy" Why does this article even exist? Music journalists are more concerned with being seen to 'discover' new bands and trends, regardless of the quality. Why attach a pointless label to such great music? It's as bad as 'banoffee' or the whole 'new rave' nonsence. Moof! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.249.2.158 (talk) 06:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Multi-racial?
''Bristol has a strong black community that has been defining what it means to be black British for centuries; Bristol is 2.8 percent black. In addition, Bristol has a large multi-racial community (only 89.3 percent white)''

Multi-racial with 90% white? Is this some kind of joke? 3% black? This doesn't constitute a large minority population to me. That sentence about defining what it means to be black doesn't belong in an encyclopedia either. I think these sentences should be removed? WillV (talk) 17:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

It is important to note that, as an important slave-trading centre in the 18th century, Bristol's black community has influenced black British identity for centuries

I was under the impression that there were extremely limited numbers of black people in Britain as a whole until the mass immigration starting in the 1950s. I find it hard to believe that there was such a thing as a "black British identity" or a "black community" in a port with limited inflow of black people (given that most slaves were shipped immediately to the Americas) in the strict single moral culture of the 18th and 19th centuries. 78.149.110.8 (talk) 17:47, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Presumably someone doesn't really get the concept of an unbiased, referenced and reliable encyclopaedia and are using the article a little too much like a 'diary of personal thoughts on Trip Hop'. I removed both of the quoted sections for this reason. If anybody has a problem with this, feel free to express it to me. Nebuliser (talk) 05:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Port cities like Bristol, Cardiff and Liverpool have had significant mixed race communities for centuries. But that is mostly because of black and Arab merchant seamen settling there, not because of the slave trade. The non-white percentage for Bristol is now almost exactly the national average. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.93.159.209 (talk) 22:44, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


 * centre in the 18th century, Bristol's black community has influenced black British identity for centuries. Way back in 2008 that still made no sense.  To influence anything for "centuries", one would presume that whatever you are talking about probably goes back much further.  Unless you mean just two or three centuries, in which case it would be technically correct, but still not make a lot of sense for a country with a couple of millennia of recorded history.

In 2006 Nelly Furtado stated...

 * "In 2006 Nelly Furtado stated that she has invented a new genre called trip-hop."

This sentence is grammatically incorrect, not referenced, and completely out of place IMO. After reading this I had to do some digging, and it's true that Nelly Furtado was part of a trip-hop act during the late nineties (just search for Nelstar on youtube). I don't believe this is worth mentioning on this article though - or if it is, there must be a better way than the above sentence. 62.56.96.239 (talk) 13:46, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Trip Hop - are you sure?!
Trip Hop is actually a very narrow genre, and doesn't have very many representative artists. I think the American idea of what Trip Hop is, is wildly different from what the British view is. Any electronic artists who are a bit downtempo seem to get lumped in to the genre without a second thought. Just because two artists have something in common (e.g. using samples from film soundtracks) does not make them of the same genre.

As trip hop has it's origins in the UK, I think a British perspective on the subject is vital, and a distinction needs to be made within the article about what the parameters of the genre are, from perspectives either side of the pond. Or at least a separation of the narrow and accurate interpretation of the genre, and the more generalising wide view of what constitutes trip hop.

For me (as a Brit) going through the artists in the article:


 * Coldcut's remix of Eric B. & Rakim's Paid in Full - it may have been influential, but no, this is not trip hop.
 * Massive Attack - yes.
 * Bonobo - definitely not. It's downtempo electronica, maybe with a touch of chillout.
 * Portishead - yes, for their first 2 albums. The third is not trip hop.
 * Tricky - yes.
 * Björk - maybe trip hop-influenced on songs like Possibly Maybe, but definitely not a trip hop artist.
 * Moloko - no. It's downbeat pop music in the main, with some electronic dance.
 * Thievery Corporation - Absolutely not. It's electronica with influences of world music, nu jazz, lounge, and so on, but it's not trip hop.
 * Lamb - sort of, but really it's more avant garde pop and breakbeat.
 * Sneaker Pimps - yes, though at the indie pop end of the scale.
 * Faithless - definitely not. Downtempo trance and house music.
 * Emilíana Torrini - no! It's gentle Icelandic pop music!
 * Pati Yang - I don't know.
 * Amon Tobin - no. It's avant garde, electronica, breakbeat, and a bit jazzy.
 * Ruby - I don't know.
 * Ilya - I don't know.
 * DJ Shadow - no. Now, I know this is where the term came from, but Shadow's music is instrumental hip hop, turntablism, and yes, it's downbeat, but if this is trip hop, then Portishead, for example, is not... Which makes a mockery of the whole thing.
 * Cut Chemist - no. For the same reasons as Shadow, but Chemist is also more upbeat!
 * UNKLE - no. I see where people are coming from, on things like Lonely Soul, but again, it's mostly instrumental hip hop, turtablism, electronica, and yes it's downbeat, but no, it's not trip hop. Unless you mean in the "DJ Shadow is trip hop, Portishead is not" sense.
 * Gorillaz - no. This is the maddest entry in here. Many genres could be applied to them, but I can't think of one Gorillaz track that could be considered trip hop. Maybe someone considered things like Gravity or Tomorrow Comes Today to be trip hop. But they're not. Check Blur's album 13, which has a similar tone. Would people consider Blur to be trip hop?!?
 * Howie B. - I'm not that well acquainted with Howie B. stuff. What I have heard was funky turntablism and instrumental hip hop. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.
 * Morcheeba - Sort of, though it's closer to chillout, trip hop-influenced pop.
 * Glideascope - don't know
 * Bowery Electric - don't know.
 * Anomie Belle - don't know.
 * Red Snapper - I don't know enough of their music to really comment.
 * Archive - probably, going by the Londinium album.

The point here is that very few of these artists are cited as being trip hop by any external sources. Only Massive Attack, Anomie Belle and the original description of DJ Shadow have such sources. As I've said, I believe if you consider Shadow (and UNKLE) to be trip hop, then I don't see how Portishead, Massive Attack and Tricky fit under the same banner, ergo, they can't be trip hop. But we all know that they're the "big 3" of the trip hop genre, so therefore, the original classification of the DJ Shadow single was not meant in the same sense that was subsequently applied to those three bands. Accepting that, then artists such as Cut Chemist and Amon Tobin really can't be considered trip hop.

Another issue - I notice in the "Post trip hop" section, it says Big Beat and Electro are sub-categories of trip hop. This is a complete nonsense. Electro was around for 10+ years before trip hop emerged. And Big Beat is practically a polar opposite to trip hop in terms of mood/tone, rhythm and melody.

Oh, and one artist completely omitted from the article, but who definitely is trip hop, is Earthling. They were from Bristol, too... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.56.127.113 (talk) 16:14, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I removed the "Post Trip Hop" claim that Electro and Big Beat are sub-categories of Trip-Hop as it was unreferenced and I agree, as far as I'm concerned it's nonsense. Big Beat is much more closely associated with Breakbeat and Rave, whilst Electro is a genre that emerged in the 1980's alongside House and Hip Hop.

I think you're focusing a little too closely on the big 3 originators. If you listen to Hip Hop from the 80's and compare it with the Hip Hop of today, there is a notable distinction, but they're both considered Hip Hop. You have to allow for a genre's expansion and evolution. Music considered to be Trip Hop often sits quite comfortably under the label of Downtempo, Instrumental Hip Hop, Turntablism etc. Also, many of the artists in your list (including Massive Attack, Portishead and Tricky) sit in a grey area, the centre of a Venn diagram with 4 or 5 circles representing different genres. Some of what they make closely resembles one style, some of what they make more closely resembles another. It's never clear cut, and it's only frustrating to be caught up in pedantry and absolute precision when defining musicians. Nebuliser (talk) 06:05, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Spelling
Any consensus on how to spell and capitalize the term? Throughout the article it is written trip hop, Trip hop, trip-hop, Trip-hop, Trip-Hop; sometimes changing within one single sentence. And don't forget the awful "Post-trip hop" (?) which is subsequently changed to "Post trip hop" and "Post trip-hop" mid-section. This should be cleaned up I think. 84.226.82.43 (talk) 13:55, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Clean Up
I had a little 'clean up' as you can tell, because the existing article was in quite a bad state. I removed some sections which were unreferenced and inappropriate for an encyclopaedia. I also created a new section for listing notable Trip Hop artists, because having small lists of Trip Hop artists people like scattered around the various sections, regardless of how notable they are, is messy and confusing.

There's still quite a lot that makes this article of a poor quality, specifically the lack of citations, and hopefully people will help out. If anybody has a problem with my alterations let me know.Nebuliser (talk) 07:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I, after about 2 months of you saying that have finally added a tag to the article. Can't think of anything to do though. I am a kind of editor that edits articles and leaves the dirty work for other users to sort though, so don't expect me to do anything. Hole in my sock You talkin' to me? 20:42, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I did another little edit because someone has essentially turned the article into their own little essay without references and without maintaining the focal point of the article which is the genre of Trip Hop, NOT Massive Attack, Portishead and Tricky. They have their own individual artist pages. There's still plenty to be done though before this page is anywhere near the standard it should be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nebuliser (talk • contribs) 14:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Rewrite
I believe the only way to keep this article up to scratch is a complete rewrite. There is too many bits of original research, weasel words hanging all over the place and too many sentences needing citations. Hole in my sock jibber jabber 15:52, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

now among Britain's most racially diverse cities
Bristol is actually less racially diverse than most other british cities of its size. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.3.165.76 (talk) 23:52, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Capitalization consistancy?
Any way we can change all references of Trip Hop (including the title of the page)to fully capitalized, non hyphonized version? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.96.71.234 (talk) 17:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I cannot find a discussion of the proposed merger of trip rock to this article so I am trying to revive the proposal. Most of the artists mentioned in that article are here and there is not a single source to argue that trip rock is a seperate genre.-- SabreBD  (talk)  17:16, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Phantogram's "Voices"
Is this album enough trip-hop to be mentioned in the "Trip-Hop in the 2010s" section? I haven't heard it but I know they're considered Trip-Hop, and the album is listed as "Trip-Hop" on Wikipedia, after the label "Indie Pop". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.227.250.154 (talk) 03:47, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'd say so 77.99.12.140 (talk) 02:56, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

The band Glass Animals is also listed as Trip Hop. We should get these bands in the article. The 2010 section is in constant flux but I haven't seen them added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.250.16 (talk) 05:41, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

This artist Banks is also Trip Hop and new in 2014. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.250.16 (talk) 07:44, 6 July 2014 (UTC)