Talk:Triple Crown (rugby union)

Coal trophy
Prior to the new (2006) trophy donated by RBS, I recall a trophy carved from coal (and presumably treated in some way to prevent its erosion and soiling the hands of the dignitary charged with presenting it) being featured in the television preamble to a (then) 5 nations championship a few years ago. Was this just a short lived novelty, or was it regarded as a genuine tangible award to the victorious side? Kevin McE 12:38, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I had never heard of this, but according to this pdf. There was a 'trophy' made out of coal but there is no suggestion that it was taken seriously.GordyB 10:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Have to get a photo of it, there's one in the RBS Press Section but not very clear. Stabilo boss 13:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The Name Triple Crown
I think "Triple Crown" was attributed to James I/VI in Macbeth but am unsure.


 * James I / VI did have a 'Triple Crown' but whether the rugby union one is named after it is another matter. It is possible, but I think it is impossible to say where it derivates from. The above link I cited for the 'lump of coal' says that the term is first recorded in the Irish Times and nobody knows what they origin was. I don't think we'll get a better answer than that. The Triple Crown disambig page says for example that a Triple Crown is often awarded in sport for the winning of three things - this in my view is a possible origin of the name. Of course it is possible that other sports copied the title from rugby.GordyB 20:26, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd guess there's a fair chance of that. Certainly it must have its origins in a British sport played between the home nations, as a reference to James VI/I's rule over England, Scotland and Ireland, and rugby is the best candidate. Wouldn't surprise me if it was a Welshman who coined it originally, as it makes most sense as Wales "owning" England, Scotland and Ireland. FlagSteward (talk) 00:07, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Grand Slam
So if either of the home nations win all of the games they'd win both the Triple Crown and the Grand Slam? -- Howard  the   Duck  04:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, Wales did it in 2005.GordyB 09:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Wooden spoon
Means finishing bottom not losing all games. If you read the article on the wooden spoon, it comes from Cambridge awarding a wooden spoon for the person getting the bottom mark in maths. In other sports competitions e.g. the NRL - the bottom team gets the wooden spoon.

This article here descibes Scotland as winning the wooden spoon even though they beat Wales.

Losing all games is a 'whitewash'.GordyB 10:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

First use
The Oxford English dictionary give the fist use as "1899 Whitaker's Almanack 1900 648/2 In their last match at Cardiff against Wales, Ireland won by a try to nothing, securing the triple crown with three straight victories as in 1894." --PBS (talk) 14:38, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I added this to the article.Victor Yus (talk) 13:18, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Table
In my opinion, the table of past winners is a little inefficient. Would anyone be dead against the idea of grouping together the years with no winner as follows?

DrFishcake (talk) 19:58, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Go for it - even better, put it into 5+ columns. FlagSteward (talk) 00:07, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

--27.33.234.172 (talk) 17:43, 20 September 2011 (UTC) seems logical, although for Ireland pre 1922, would the St Patrick's flag be suitable as that was their flag at the time? (following football flag usage conventions)?

Triple crown winner not winning six nations
I made an edit that it was not only France or Italy that could win the six nations when another nation won the triple crown, stating that any other home nation could also win it.

The edit was reverted on the grounds of "improbable scenario".

I would dispute this - with all due respect to Italy I would say it is just as likely for a home nations team to win the six nations when another wins the triple crown. A perfect example is this year:

Wales have won the triple crown. However if they were to lose to France, and England won their remaining two games - all of which is possible - the winner of the six nations would then come down to points difference. The current wording implies that it is impossible for a home nations team to win the six nations and another to win the triple crown. It should be removed, or expanded to mention that it is "simpler" for Italy or France to end up in that situation.

In fact, this almost occured in 1996. England won the triple crown and the five nations. However, Scotland also won 3 games. Had they won by bigger margins, or England by smaller margins, Scotland would have taken the five nations despite England winning the triple crown.

I know this is original research, but so is the current statement.

Richjhart (talk) 11:07, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

... on points-difference...
Unlike the Grand Slam, the Triple Crown winners will not necessarily be the tournament winners, since France or Italy–or even another of the home nations– could outperform them on points-difference within the Six Nations Championship. This first occurred in the 1977 Five Nations Championship, when Wales won the Triple Crown by defeating the other three British Isles teams, while France won the Championship by completing the Grand Slam over all four of the British Isles teams. Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 09:06, 6 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Not necessarily on points-difference even, it could be outright, couldnt it? If England took the Triple Crown but lost to both France and Italy, while Wales won all their matches except the one against England, then Wales would be above England in the table regardless of points-difference.--Victor Yus (talk) 09:24, 6 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, results of matches will always take precedence over numbers of points won or leaked in determining the Championship winner.
 * I am sure you don't need to ask who I support. What about yourself?  Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 10:06, 6 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm of mixed ancestry so I can take my pick, but I admit I always find a Welsh victory particularly rousing. Perhaps because the brilliant performances of G. Edwards & co. are among my earliest sporting memories... Victor Yus (talk) 10:51, 6 March 2012 (UTC)


 * We are clearly of the same generation. The coming weekends should be great.  Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 11:03, 6 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree it will always be possible for a team - even another home nations team - to win outright on points alone. I only specified points difference because that scenario is more likely at the moment because Italy are CURRENTLY less likely to beat a triple crown winner. There is nothing to say that should the competition get closer then the scenario of a different home nations team being the outright winner on points starts to get more likely. There is nothing mathematicaly stopping it this year in fact - although to be honest it seems unlikely to me. Note as well that it was not possible until it became the six nations.Richjhart (talk) 23:17, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't entirely follow this conversation, but is there anyone who now objects to removing the "on points-difference" from the current text? I would just say "...since France or Italy - or even another of the home nations - could outperform them over the Championship as a whole". This covers all the mathematical possibilities.Victor Yus (talk) 08:08, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * ✅ Agreed. This is, after all, the article on the Triple Crown, and not the Grand Slam.
 * I have just taken the comment from view.
 * Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 09:45, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
 * ... and ammended the sentence to match your suggestion. Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 09:56, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

What say we move this paragraph out of the intro, where it dominates unnecessarily? Well, I'm about to do it anyway - anyone who disagrees, just revert me.Victor Yus (talk) 13:22, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Current revision looks good to me.Richjhart (talk) 14:20, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree,too. Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 14:48, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Hunting
Great 77.75.244.13 (talk) 19:40, 20 March 2022 (UTC)